Advice on what to do with pool contractor $14000 unexpected charge

[brimorga]

We signed a pool contract on 2/9/21, pool was supposed to be completed on 9/30/21. We finally got the pool cover installed last week and we're still waiting for them to finish the cover vault and do final inspection. Excavation was done in early June. Total contract price was $131K.

Today I got a bill from them for $14,000. The contract only covered 2 days of excavation and 17 dump loads at $350 per load plus trash disposal of $400.

They are saying that excavation was 3.5 days so, 1.5 days extra at $5500 per full day and $2750 per half day. They are claiming dumping costs were $12,262 vs $6350 in the contract.

Needless to say, I'm pretty mad about getting a $14K bill 7 months after the work was performed. I find it amazing that a pool company that has been in business for 52 years could possibly be off by almost 2x on the excavation and dumping costs. They had full access to my property to make their assessment and estimate what the fees would be, we even cut down a tree after the contact was signed so they could bring in a larger excavator. Since I don't build pools for a living, I had no way to determine how accurate the quote was. I did have the excavators do a very small amount of leveling for a small area next to the pool, but that was maybe an hour or 2 and not a significant amount of dirt. The excavator, who is a contractor to the pool company and a super nice guy, told me at the time that they are notorious for underbidding and he didn't think it was an appropriate business practice.

In addition, it's taken so long that now my permit is expired. In the contract, permit fees are my responsibility, but it is solely delays from the pool builder that has kept my job from being completed on time. I'm also worried about them trying to charge me more for that.

Any suggestions on recourse? Is this normal to get a charge for 10% more than the entire project for excavation, way after the fact?

My initial thoughts are to fight them on this and try to get the bill down, but even if they cut it by 50%, that's still a huge fee that we didn't budget for.

 

[Oona]

Was it specified in the contract that anything over 2 days owner would incur additional excavation charges?

 

[brimorga]

Was it specified in the contract that anything over 2 days owner would incur additional excavation charges?

Yes, it was. It was all in there and laid out and I agreed to it, so contractually they are correct. My concern is that it appears as though they significantly underbid it and it's taken them 7 months to now present me with a massive bill. My bad on signing the contract, but it seems extreme to be so far off the original estimate. I am not an expert, I had no idea how long it would take, but for their estimate to be almost 2x off just seems wrong.

 

[Oona]

With my PB I don’t have to worry about excavation (luckily too bc it is nothing but limestone starting from about 1/4” down to ~700’) as they already are aware and my contract has it as included! So it looks like your PB is covered regardless for excavation fee they charged but I am not sure how they were so off on the extra dump loads unless you increased your pool size or something?

 

[ajw22]

You can argue it and see where it goes. Tell them, in writing, they need to support the additional charges showing detailed time sheets of manpower for the excavation and invoices for the dumps and trash disposal.

Did you observe them taking 2 days or 3.5 days for the excavation? You have any cameras setup recording their work?

Did you observe how many truck loads they hauled away to the dump?

Given how long it took them to invoice you I would slow walk any payment to them.

Worst case you end up in court telling it to a judge or they put a lien on your house. If they have records for all the charges then a judge will probably tell you to pay it.

 

[TampaKathy]

I'd be doing some math on if 17 loads even makes sense...from a quick google...a dump truck holds 10 to 16 cubic yards...let's say 13 average...13x17= 221 cubic yards which equals 44k gallons...your signature says your pool is 22k...so I'd be questioning that to start...and asking for proof of dump fees...and do you recall if it actually took them 3.5 days (I honestly wouldn't be able to recall on my build).

 

[brimorga]

With my PB I don’t have to worry about excavation (luckily too bc it is nothing but limestone starting from about 1/4” down to ~700’) as they already are aware and my contract has it as included! So it looks like your PB is covered regardless for excavation fee they charged but I am not sure how they were so off on the extra dump loads unless you increased your pool size or something?

I didn't change the pool size once I signed the contract. I know my dirt was pretty compacted and maybe it 'expanded' once it was excavated, but this pool company is the largest around and has been in business for 50 years and there is nothing special about where I live that could justify why they were so far off. They build lots of pools around me.

The excavator told me he has the same problems with this particular designer constantly underbidding the work. We were prepared to argue this at the time with the pool company, but thought we were in the clear given it was 7 months ago and we'd heard nothing.

 

[brimorga]

You can argue it and see where it goes. Tell them, in writing, they need to support the additional charges showing detailed time sheets of manpower for the excavation and invoices for the dumps and trash disposal.

Did you observe them taking 2 days or 3.5 days for the excavation? You have any cameras setup recording their work?

Did you observe how many truck loads they hauled away to the dump?

Given how long it took them to invoice you I would slow walk any payment to them.

Worst case you end up in court telling it to a judge or they put a lien on your house. If they have records for all the charges then a judge will probably tell you to pay it.

The excavation does seem like it took 3.5 days. There was some starting and stopping however because they brought one set up equipment and then had to swap it out, but 3.5 days doesn't seem too far off. I didn't notice how many dump loads they took. Thanks for the advice.

I'd be doing some math on if 17 loads even makes sense...from a quick google...a dump truck holds 10 to 16 cubic yards...let's say 13 average...13x17= 221 cubic yards which equals 44k gallons...your signature says your pool is 22k...so I'd be questioning that to start...and asking for proof of dump fees...and do you recall if it actually took them 3.5 days (I honestly wouldn't be able to recall on my build).

Good idea asking for the proof of dump fees. Thank you.

 

[Cena_sea]

If there was a delay getting equipment or for swapping out equipment, you should not be billed for that time delay. The problem is they waited so long it's hard to remember or look up on camera how long the dig was delayed. Also, our build went an extra 1/2 day and they did not bill us extra for the time. I got the impression it was based on the job--not how many days but I know that can vary via builder.

 

[Oona]

That right there is exactly why I got rid of my last PB -made promises they could never keep all just to underbid and secure the contract!!! Used car salesman get a bad rap but the more I read on these forums, they don’t come close to some of these PBs and the shady Crud they do!! Get the charges itemized and seek some legal counsel if you don’t want to pay it all!

The excavator told me he has the same problems with this particular designer constantly underbidding the work. We were prepared to argue this at the time with the pool company, but thought we were in the clear given it was 7 months ago and we'd heard nothing.

 

[jonnyd91]

They are saying they did 35 dump loads by my math. Were they digging to china?
I call BS on that. Can you post some pics of the dig site?

 

[brimorga]

They are saying they did 35 dump loads by my math. Were they digging to china?
I call BS on that. Can you post some pics of the dig site?

I got a good laugh out of that. Here are some of the best before and after shots I could find.

10AA66B9-DBDB-41B3-A2A4-F9034C637431.jpeg

• brimorga
• Feb 3, 2021

IMG_2862 (2).jpg

• brimorga
• Jun 29, 2021

 

[.ben]

Depending on the soil type, soil can swell (increase in volume) by 25 to 40% (more for rock) comparing volume in ground vs loose (truck load)

The link below will help when estimating truck load volume

Table 4-1.-Volume Changes

 

[jonnyd91]

Looks like maybe the deep end was 10ft there?
For reference this was my pool and to remove all that and the surrounding dirt was roughly 4 maybe 5 truckloads.

Was it a full triaxle dump truck they were using? 35 loads seems unrealistic.
I would def. make it hard for them to get that money. They would need to prove it.

 

[TKpoolOH]

That sucks! The number of loads does sound excessive. Just get as much documentation on everything, like some have suggested. I wouldn't want to pay that huge extra bill. Do what you can to try to resolve it, but don't dwell on the negative and keep the positive in mind. Do you have a functioning pool that you can use and you're happy with? There's something to be said for being finished or almost finished. Sometimes I struggle to stay focused on the end of the tunnel, I signed contract October 2020, supposed to be done July 2021, there has been zero work started on my pool, and I just got hit with an additional $2,500-$3,000 topographic survey cost. Stay positive!

 

[evamor]

Absolutely do not pay it. Do you honestly think a single pool builder is going to pay higher than budgeted excavation costs and dump fees and not bill you for it or notice the increase for 7 months? I'd practically guarantee you that every single aspect of your pool build is sub contracted out by your pool builder like every pb does and this is all about them not making enough gross profit at the end of the job and making things up. I'm assuming they also did not notify you or get permission for the extra fees when they occurred.

I'd completely refuse to pay anything above the outrageous 131k you already paid. If push comes to shove make them show you invoices from the sub that did the excavation and invoices from where they were charged the dump fees along with proof to correlate it to your job.

 

[brimorga]

Thanks for all the advice. I think I’m just going to ignore them for now. The pool is all done, just need final inspection and I owe $1000 from the contract. I’ll see how they want to play this and then I’ll start asking for documentation for the charges and make it as difficult as possible for them. All their leverage is gone, if they want it bad enough they can come get it. I’d be more willing to work with them if they just didn’t drop this bomb on me at the last minute. I’m fine to pay what I owe but this doesn’t feel right.

 

[Cena_sea]

It doesn't feel right. Also the late bill makes it harder to go back and try to figure out how many truck fills of dirt/debris they loaded. The dump fee amount seems excessive. At 17 loads you'd average 4-5 truckloads a day, but to be at 8-9 a day seems unrealistic. We have a camera for the front street area but with our plan it only saves footage for 60 days. You could try to see if a neighbor has a different security setup and might've caught (and saved) the front area (or side area) showing the trucks. I know our across neighbor can see our home and we can see their front street from the way our cameras are set up.

Edit: Or again, probably rare but maybe you have footage of the backyard dig? That way you could see how many times the machine went back and forth out of the yard even on one day. I know that's tedious but then you could possibly calculate how may loads of dirt could potentially be filled.

 

[jonnyd91]

This could go a few ways

1. It could be one big bluff on their part hoping you will just cut them a check, when you call the bluff they just drop it.
2. They could provide the receipts and then it gets tricky.
3. They have no receipts and therefore no proof (benefits you)

The one unfortunate part here is while you have all the monetary leverage, they still have warranty leverage. So if they wanted to tell you to pound sand when there is a problem with the pool that becomes an issue.

I think ignoring it for now may be the right call, this way they quietly finish the pool and start it up. You pay the last bill and then wait for them to contact you about the 14k. Good chance it may take another 7 months, depends on their accounting dept.

Not sure if you ever answered but did you have any security cameras in the yard at the time?

 

[Newdude]

The one unfortunate part here is while you have all the monetary leverage, they still have warranty leverage. So if they wanted to tell you to pound sand when there is a problem with the pool that becomes an issue

Even a $14k chipout/refinish would be a even swap. I'd prefer replacing my own pump if it died for SURE. But, yeah. I'm with ya here.

I think ignoring it for now may be the right call, this way they quietly finish the pool and start it up. You pay the last bill and then wait for them to contact you about the 14k. Good chance it may take another 7 months, depends on their accounting dept.

This is what I'm thinking too. The more I think about this, I bet it was the subcontractor who forgot to bill in the first place and this was news to the PB who is just passing it along now. If the PB knew the whole time, it's less likely IMHO that they sat on it. They would have used it as leverage before a previous big step of the process was completed.