Adding heater

[truckprank]

We are considering adding a heater, and received a quote for what I believe to be this model (quote doesn't specify exact SKU). "Hayward 400k BTU natural gas" is the description. Although I can't figure out the difference between the H400, the HDF400, and the H400FDN that I've come across in my research!

Our pool is only 6,700 gallons! Hoping this isn't too far overkill but I hear it's much better to go bigger so it doesn't have to run as much. We currently have all Pentair equipment, but am definitely looking at price for this addition and another quote we got for the Pentair MasterTemp 125k BTU is almost double the price of the Hayward for less than a third the capacity, which I can't ignore. Especially after spending a LOT on this new pool, retaining wall, landscaping, and deck rebuild over the past year.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[1poolman1]

We are considering adding a heater, and received a quote for what I believe to be this model (quote doesn't specify exact SKU). "Hayward 400k BTU natural gas" is the description. Although I can't figure out the difference between the H400, the HDF400, and the H400FDN that I've come across in my research!

Our pool is only 6,700 gallons! Hoping this isn't too far overkill but I hear it's much better to go bigger so it doesn't have to run as much. We currently have all Pentair equipment, but am definitely looking at price for this addition and another quote we got for the Pentair MasterTemp 125k BTU is almost double the price of the Hayward for less than a third the capacity, which I can't ignore. Especially after spending a LOT on this new pool, retaining wall, landscaping, and deck rebuild over the past year.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

For the sake of convenience (speed) you want a large a capacity heater as you can fit in the area and that your gas line will accommodate. If this is a completely new installation the price for the Master Temp may have included new gas line, which is expensive. The difference in cost of the heaters is the Hayward 400 is about twice the cost of that Master Temp 125.

The 125K BTU "any brand" will heat your pool about 2 degrees an hour. A 400K BTU "any brand" will heat it about 6 degrees an hour.

There are also heaters in the 250K BTU and 330K BTU range that cost and heat between the two extremes that might fit your needs.

I personally don't care for the Hayward because of the cost of repairs and their complexity. But that is just me, because if I sell something and it needs repair I'm the one that usually gets the call. For the money, and size, a Pentair MasterTemp or a Sta-Rite Max-E-Therm seem the better option (same heater, different package). They are all the same size "box" just different insides for different BTU capacities.

 

[truckprank]

For the sake of convenience (speed) you want a large a capacity heater as you can fit in the area and that your gas line will accommodate.

Yes! Thanks for validating my thought there. We have room but I'm not sure about the gas line specs.

If this is a completely new installation the price for the Master Temp may have included new gas line, which is expensive. The difference in cost of the heaters is the Hayward 400 is about twice the cost of that Master Temp 125.

Thank you! It is a new installation, but we have an existing gas pipe close by for the grill just on the other side of the wall to the crawlspace which I hope could be tapped into somehow but I don't know for sure. So yes, that's a huge variable for sure! The Pentair 125k BTU quote did include everything including plumbing and permits, at around $7,200. The Hayward 400k BTU quote does NOT include plumbing for gas line or permits, for around $4,100. (permits are inexpensive here).

The 125K BTU "any brand" will heat your pool about 2 degrees an hour. A 400K BTU "any brand" will heat it about 6 degrees an hour.

There are also heaters in the 250K BTU and 330K BTU range that cost and heat between the two extremes that might fit your needs.

I personally don't care for the Hayward because of the cost of repairs and their complexity. But that is just me, because if I sell something and it needs repair I'm the one that usually gets the call. For the money, and size, a Pentair MasterTemp or a Sta-Rite Max-E-Therm seem the better option (same heater, different package). They are all the same size "box" just different insides for different BTU capacities.

Thank you very much for the insight. Lots more for us to consider here now, lol!

 

[ajw22]

Pentair and Hayward heaters are similarly priced.

You are not comparing like to like costs.

I also would prefer the Pentair MasterTemp 400.

 

[ajw22]

Check that your existing gas pipe and house gas meter has the capacity to run a 400K heater.

 

[1poolman1]

Yes! Thanks for validating my thought there. We have room but I'm not sure about the gas line specs.

Thank you! It is a new installation, but we have an existing gas pipe close by for the grill just on the other side of the wall to the crawlspace which I hope could be tapped into somehow but I don't know for sure. So yes, that's a huge variable for sure! The Pentair 125k BTU quote did include everything including plumbing and permits, at around $7,200. The Hayward 400k BTU quote does NOT include plumbing for gas line or permits, for around $4,100. (permits are inexpensive here).

Thank you very much for the insight. Lots more for us to consider here now, lol!

Bar-B-Que gas line is probably 3/4." That won't supply a pool heater unless it is very close to the gas source. Then, it would have to be a very small heater.

 

[truckprank]

I have a plumber coming out to quote the gas line install and for general advice on the gas line sizing. if we were to do that piece separately from the high quote for the 125k heater vs. the bigger and less expensive options but that don't include the gas line. That seems that's the limiting factor right now, as I do more research. That BBQ gas line already there probably won't even come close to supporting a 400k BTU heater! Time will tell, but I really appreciate all the responses here especially the advice to make sure the gas line can accommodate what we're trying to do here.

We definitely learned a lesson a while back on the cost of what one might consider a minor item (our needed retaining wall after the pool install) to not assume the "minor" items are actually minor because the retaining wall turned out to be half the cost of the pool itself, lol! So if the bigger quote for a smaller heater includes everything to make it work properly, that might be the way to go for us.

Thanks again y'all, and I'll update the thread here to say how things turn out.

 

[1poolman1]

I have a plumber coming out to quote the gas line install and for general advice on the gas line sizing. if we were to do that piece separately from the high quote for the 125k heater vs. the bigger and less expensive options but that don't include the gas line. That seems that's the limiting factor right now, as I do more research. That BBQ gas line already there probably won't even come close to supporting a 400k BTU heater! Time will tell, but I really appreciate all the responses here especially the advice to make sure the gas line can accommodate what we're trying to do here.

We definitely learned a lesson a while back on the cost of what one might consider a minor item (our needed retaining wall after the pool install) to not assume the "minor" items are actually minor because the retaining wall turned out to be half the cost of the pool itself, lol! So if the bigger quote for a smaller heater includes everything to make it work properly, that might be the way to go for us.

Thanks again y'all, and I'll update the thread here to say how things turn out.

400K btu with natural gas usually requires 1.5" pipe, depending on distance from the meter. Will need a larger meter as well.

 

[truckprank]

Thanks again y'all, and I'll update the thread here to say how things turn out.

So after a LOT of thought and consideration, plus plenty of frustration with getting quotes, we have finally found a contractor who seems to be on the same page as us as far as responsiveness and knowledge, and we accepted his quote earlier today. Knowledge on my part being completely due to you fine folks here! Especially the whole gas line piece - that was key. Thanks everyone for looking out and sharing.

We are going with the Pentair Mastertemp 400k BTU for our small pool, which I am super happy with; new gas line from our meter to the unit (not sure size, but am certain it's appropriate - we have 2 PSIG service at the meter and the new line will come directly off the meter). and are looking forward to installation very soon. The gas company marked out the yard today, we have all of our quotes for the different pieces in order, and are ready to rock and roll!

So I guess to add some more flavor - would y'all go with burying the gas line just under grade along foundation to keep it hidden, from the meter on the side of the house back out to the unit, or would you accept it hung from the house foundation block a foot or two above grade where it's visible? I'm leaning toward burying to make it invisible but not sure if that would lead to lesser lifespan due to corrosion, etc.

 

[ajw22]

I would bury the gas line.

 

[truckprank]

I would bury the gas line.

That is what we will do. Thank you! Much appreciated.

 

[JamesW]

we have 2 PSIG service at the meter and the new line will come directly off the meter

burying the gas line just under grade along foundation to keep it hidden, from the meter on the side of the house back out to the unit, or would you accept it hung from the house foundation block a foot or two above grade where it's visible? I'm leaning toward burying to make it invisible but not sure if that would lead to lesser lifespan due to corrosion, etc.

7.1.2.1 Cover Requirements.

Underground piping systems shall be installed with a minimum of 12 in. (300 mm) of cover.

(A) The minimum cover shall be increased to 18 in. (460 mm)if external damage to the pipe or tubing from external forces is likely to result.

(B) Where a minimum of 12 in. (300 mm) of cover cannot be provided, the pipe shall be installed in conduit or bridged(shielded).

7.1.2.2 Trenches. The trench shall be graded so that the pipe has a firm, substantially continuous bearing on the bottom of the trench

 

[JamesW]

we have 2 PSIG service at the meter and the new line will come directly off the meter

 

[JamesW]

We are considering adding a heater, and received a quote for what I believe to be this model (quote doesn't specify exact SKU). "Hayward 400k BTU natural gas" is the description.

Never accept vague or incomplete proposals.

Always get all details in writing.

Here is an example of a bad Proposal.

Install Heater.

Heater..........Whatever we feel like bringing.

Price.......Whatever we feel like charging.

Timeframe..........Whenever we feel like getting it done.

Quality..........Whatev.

What is included......Whatever we feel like including.

 

[truckprank]

Update: Thank you all who responded! The Pentair MasterTemp 400k BTU heater was placed about two weeks ago along with plumbing into the pool. Pool water has been flowing through the unit since, but the heater has not been turned up yet.

Gas line installed about 10 days ago, they used this real thick and robust looking flexible gas line right off the meter, and buried in a trench about 12" down or so (I thought they'd use black iron pipe but I guess this is just as good or better!). Guesstimate is that it's less than a 50' run - probably more like 30' total with no hard right angles except at the termination points. Today, the county inspector came by and approved the gas leak portion of the permit, woohoo!

So, next steps are that I'm expecting plumber back out soon to turn on the gas, retrieve his testing gauge, and backfill the trench. Then, the pool company installer back out to turn up the heater and show us how to use the thing. Hopeful to be up and running within the next week! Although we are almost to the point where we won't need to for the summer.. water is already at 72 and 10 day forecast shows mid- to high- 80s, lol. Such is life!

As always, to add some flavor with a question. Chemistry - with the fiberglass pool and no tile or other features, I've been told to not really worry too much about Calcium Hardness (CH) in a fiberglass pool. But I also remember that with a heater, I might want to make sure it's within spec. I did raise that level over the past two months or so to prepare for the heater. What do I need to know about chemistry after adding the heater?

Current readings:

FC: 4.5
CC: 0.0
pH: 7.9 (I'm always struggling and adding acid to lower which is normal I think)
TA: 95
CH: 185
CYA: 50
Salt: 3200
Temp: 72.1

Thanks y'all!

Dave

 

[ajw22]

You want 200ppm of CH with heater. 185 is close enough.

 

[truckprank]

You want 200ppm of CH with heater. 185 is close enough.

Since I have it on hand, I just threw in a small amount 32oz dry of BalancePAK 300 calcium chloride to bump up CH a bit. thank you!

 

[truckprank]

Update: probably the final update here. So we just got our heater up and running three days ago, finally! (pentair mastertemp 400) Wow, what an amazing piece of equipment. It took the entire pool from 75 to 80 degrees F in about an hour as an initial test, then earlier today to see what it could do, I took it from 82 up to 88 and that happened in about 90 minutes. Love!! And let me tell you, 88 degree water is just amazing to swim in and I know because I tried it out. =) I did walk past the gas meter while it was coming up to temp and could certainly hear that baby churning, and its dials were spinning! That gas bill is probably going to be steep... I'm not planning on leaving it at that temp, as it would cost me a fortune. But glad to know it's capable.

One thing I learned is that I needed to turn up my default variable pump settings a bit due to the additional drag from water flowing through the heater, as my one furthest return wasn't putting out anything at all after installation. I increased all settings by 300 RPM and now all is well throughout the day.

A big thanks to all who gave advice and contributed here. Again, the biggest piece for me was the gas line sizing and its cost. You can plop down a big heater no problem, but if your gas line can't supply it then all bets are off. Thanks again y'all!