resource for borax?

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The TF-100 has the FAS-DPD and is the best value as it has larger bottle of each of the reagents... and comes in an easier to manage box.

I store my test kit inside the house. I test my FC withe the OTO or the FAS_DPD nearly everyday. I use the OTO for most days if the FC is expected to be in the 0-5ppm range and use the FAS_DPD when I am doing my weekly full test or if I think the FC is greater than 5PPM. The TF will last at least one season. I am on my second season and I only running lowish on my CYA test solution (the big 8 oz bottle).
 
test results - attn: chem geek

Okay, I got my TF-100 kit, and tested pool water this morning.
I knew pH was getting high so I added a gallon of 2x muriatic yesterday.
Here are results:
Cl = 2
pH = 7.2
Free chlor (FADS-DPD) = 2.5
CC = 0.5
TC = 3
TA = 140
CH = 380 (-ish)
CYA = 80

I presume the free chlorine is too low, which explains the tenacious mustard algae. But I don't understand how this is possible since I continuously have about six pucks in floaters. Isn't that a lot of chlorination? My pool is not especially gentle on the eyes either.

If anything struck me as weird, the CH test presented a blue flocculant precipitate. This left me uncertain if the 0012 reagant added next would interact properly, or dissolve the particles to react.

Most surprising of all was the CH test on my well water, which showed zero calcium!! So, my presumption was unsupported, that our extreme gypsum deposits at ground level implied a high well-water content too.

We will have followup tests after the boric acid is added, shipment due any day now.

Thanks in advance to chem-g
eek.
 
You do understand that those pucks are adding to your (already high) CYA, right? You might want to re-read Pool School again. With a CYA of 80, chlorine should never be below 6. Since you see mustard algae (you are positive it is mustard algae, right?) you will have to follow the SLAM process, and then maintain mustard algae level (44 ppm) for 24 hours. Is there a reason you are still using those pucks?
 
If you have a CYA of 80 and six pucks in floaters in the pool, you aren't following any of the methods recommend here.

You will need to decide if you want to join the thousands of pool owners who use the tools and methods recommended here, and learn how to manage your own pool. That means not only accurate testing with a good test kit, but also learning that you only add what the pool needs, and rejecting any advice from pool stores. It starts with reading the info contained in "Pool School". That's the button on the upper right of this page.

You have over .5 CC and an algae problem. Your CYA is already too high yet you have pucks in floaters adding even more.
 
As the folks above have said, stop using the pucks they are adding cya and yours is already too high. First thing I would do is a 50% drain/refill to lower your cya level down to a manageable 40 ppm in preparation for the SLAM process: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/shocking_your_pool

Skip messing with borates until you get the pool algae free in order to not waste them.
 
back to basics

Yup, guess I do need to read Pools School again. Am using pucks simply for convenience, and because that's what the guy before was using -- and he employed a service co. too.
Do I understand CYA is not a consumable?... it will not degrade over time? If it does under sun, then maybe I can go to liquid Cl to get the fc up, right?... and thereby hold the mustard algae down?
Wish there was a way to do this with pucks since liquid is so much trouble.
Comment about pool stores is right on however, those guys don't know Thing One about chemistry but are glad to sell you anything with their promise it will work.
 
My pool has a SWG, but it has always been disconnected and I don't know if it works. Am I going to reduce my chemical hauling and handling enough to make reviving the SWG worthwhile? I've heard they are troublesome and expensive, and the pool will need about 200 lbs of salt**.
I also looked at the Pool Calculator and it tells me that to hit a FC of 44 to burn out the algae, I have to dump in 42.8 !!! gallons of liquid chlorine. Can that possibly be correct? If so, then how many months before we could swim in it again?!?
** while on that subject, does it improve any balancing factors to use potassium salt in a pool?
Thanks again to all,
 
44 is the mustard algae level, the normal SLAM levels is 21 FC at 80 ppm cya form the pool calculator. You must be using the poolcalculator wrong. For your 26000 gallon pool it will take about 6 gallons of 8.25% bleach to raise your FC 21 ppm.

Focus on doing the SLAM process in your pool for now. You can do the SLAM at 80 ppm cya, but it will probably be easier to do the drain/refill mentioned above first then SLAM.
 

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I just drained and refilled my pool, due to a very high calcium level. Had to add 200 lb of salt for my SWG. No big deal a couple trips to my local grocery store where they sell solar salt for about $5 for a forty pound bag. The expense my be in replacing the salt cell and getting the unit working. SWG is a great way to run the pool without having to haul any liquid chlorine (AKA bleach). But, it doesn't equate to a "set it and forget it" pool.

You first need to drain enough water to get the pool manageable, then get control of it using liquid chlorine. Once you have the water balanced and you understand all of the info in pool school, then it's time to talk about the possibility of going to SWG.
 
In a jam --

Pool calculator tells me I should replace 1/3 to 1/2 of my water, to get CYA down. My neighbors will lynch me if I try to refill from our community well. The only other pool owner has bought water delivered in a truck, costing almost $200 for each load of 5000 gals. So this gets expensive quick.
So I have two questions:
Are we certain there's no other way to reduce CYA load?... other than drain/refill?
Is there any other way to limp along until end of season? In cool of winter I'll drain to sandblast lime buildup, then acid wash, then refill entirely with "fresh" - (which really isn't, it's treated water from Colo.Riv with TDS = 285ppm.)
 
Re: In a jam --

nuklhed said:
Are we certain there's no other way to reduce CYA load?... other than drain/refill?
Is there any other way to limp along until end of season? In cool of winter I'll drain to sandblast lime buildup, then acid wash, then refill entirely with "fresh" - (which really isn't, it's treated water from Colo.Riv with TDS = 285ppm.)
Click to expand...
Unfortunately there is no way to reduce CYA except by replacing the water so a partial drain/refill. That's why knowing the following facts that are independent of concentration of product or of pool size is so important:

For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.

Sometimes people get lucky over the winter if they close their pools and let them go (i.e. do not chlorinate them) where bacteria converts the CYA into nitrogen gas so they open up their pools with no CYA, but sometimes that conversion creates ammonia instead so that there is a huge chlorine demand upon opening and we don't know how to reliably induce the desired result.

As for limping along, you'd have to maintain a higher FC level and use unstabilized chlorine -- preferably chlorinating liquid or bleach, but if your CH isn't too high you could use Cal-Hypo for a while. The problem is if you have an existing algae bloom. With a high CYA level, that will take a lot of chlorine to kill off. Also, yellow/mustard algae is even harder to kill with chlorine so is best attacked with a lower CYA level. If the algae is not causing side effect problems for you such as making the water too cloudy to see the bottom or making surfaces slippery and dangerous, then you could still use the pool since algae is not unhealthy itself. That's not a normal recommendation, but you're not following normal rules so there you go.
 
There is no "magic bullet" for high CYA. That's why we don't recommend using pucks for general chlorination. You either get rid of it through draining or live with it. That means running very high chlorine levels because of the CYA level.

That's an expensive water problem. I just did a full drain and refill and my water bill went up by <$100 for the month. As far as TDS 285, that may not be such a problem. Your primary concern is the calcium part of the total. My TDS is also very high, but the CH in my fill water is about 180.

Don't sand blast the pool, it would ruin the plaster finish. Even acid wash will shorten the life. If you have heavy scale, you may to need an acid wash, but I just used a pressure washer to clean mine before refill.
 
Other questions - comments

Had an interesting experience at Leslie's yesterday. Salesgirl, mid-20's, given just enough training to make herself dangerous. Babbling nonsense, believed the louder and faster she talked, the less wrong she would become. Wanted to sell me a major dose of Dichlor, promised (of course) it would solve algae problem. Told me it contained chemistry not on label. (a-Duh?)
Question: How do I know when filter cartridges are shot? Is there any outward visual evidence on the pleats, etc.?... (other than the obvious, like a split or collapse). Mine are at least 2 yrs old, but seem to be doing job okay. Catch lots of algae, sand, silt. We get lots of blown fines off desert.
 
next question for Chem.geek

Pool store (NPS) sold me big bottle 'Coral Seas' "Yellow Out", before I got involved with TFP. Now they won't take it back - said Homeland Security issue on chemicals, period. Oh well.
Label describes it as "Disodium salt of ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid dihydrate, diammonium sulfate". Product alleges it augments effect of shocking.
I've noticed it in stock all around town, even Wal-Mart, so we can presume lots of people use it in this area.
Should I give it a try? I have no other use for it $48), and cannot return. I have 4 gals liquid chlorine for tonight, and more for next nights until o/n loss < 0.5ppm.
Label says pH must be above 7.8. Currently 7.3. How do I get there? Pool has aux.pump with 5 big jets into air, should I run them a few hours and track effect? Also have two 4-lb. boxes Borax (@$5.50) from supermarket. Would bring pH up but confuse issue?
Reminder here: I'm looking for 'limp-along' temp.solution to tenacious mustard algae problem, just to get thru this season.
 
I would not use that. The Slam process works just fine without any help. Once Slam is complete, maintain fc at 15 percent of cya for one week, and then never lower than 7.5 percent.
 
Cartridge filters usually last for quite a few years, often at least 5. I believe I changed mine after 7 years and that wasn't from tears but from the straps that broke that I could have re-glued or ignored, but I figured 7 years was a good run. I've referring to the larger cartridge filters used in medium to large residential pools, not to the smaller ones used in small pools or in spas (those wear out more quickly). I also assume the cartridge filter is cleaned as needed.

The products you mention all contain what is known as EDTA as the short name. It can be effective against yellow/mustard algae and is also a metal sequestrant, but it breaks down quickly from chlorine so the net effect if you use it in a pool is to increase the apparent chlorine demand (over the week). The product also contains ammonia which reacts even more quickly to form monochloramine which is also effective against some algae, but will break down in hours if you maintain the chlorine level so gives even more chlorine demand (this time, short term within a day).

As James says, it's best not to add extra chemicals to your pool that you do not need. Why don't you see how things go after the SLAM process. Worst case, if the algae comes back and you want to use this stuff, that's up to you since you've already paid for it, but don't mix up procedures. If you use the product with the higher yellow/mustard shock level, it'll probably get broken down too quickly so be pretty useless.
 
the yarn spins longer

Thanks to Chem.Geek, for another deeply thoughtful response of unassailable logic. And here I was about to dose the pool anyway with EDTA. Maybe I'll just sprinkle it on my hotdogs so they'll keep for a whole year.
Anther factoid popped up in a water test by Leslie shop. Seems pool has a 300-level phosphate content. First question is how in heck does that get in there at all?... from people peeing? And second, does the off-the-shelf BioDex really take it out? And third, how is that possible, does it form a solid precipitate that comes out in the filters?
Yes to all your comments re: filter cartridges. These are Pleatco xxx, in the largest filter box Haywired makes. I see a couple breaks in the bands and small cracks beginning to appear in the turq.plas end-caps... but aside from that the media itself looks fine. I clean them about every 2 months during summer, more frequently now due to the furschlugginer mustard algae clogging up the works. Oh, by the way, did you have to 'hog out' the bores larger, where they fit the manifolds, or they grip so tightly they're impossible to remove? Owner before me broke the lower manifold trying to remove cartridge, glued it hastily then put it all back together wet enough the whole assembly stuck together so it came out in pieces when it was first time for me to clean. Not too much trouble or expense to fix, but all that entirely avoidable if Pleatco would simply make those bores 1/16" larger. I used a 'half-round' hand rasp file, obviously a Flintstone way of doing things, but the crud flying around inside any filter quickly clogs whatever gaps result, and things come apart with bare hands now, no expletives or explosives required.
 
Ignore phosphate levels. That's a way for a pool store to make big profits selling more specialized chemicals to put in the pool. There line is that phosphates are algae food. Chlorine kills algae. It doesn't matter if there is food for algae, if it's dead. Trying to starve algae is the long way around. Just kill it with chlorine.
 

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