resource for borax?

[chem geek]

Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

The TF-100 IS FAS-DPD. See this link on the TFTestkits website that you get to when you look at the TF-100 test kit that explicitly lists the tests as follows (bold red emphasis mine):

1. Chlorine Test (OTO) - Very dependable for detecting the presence of chlorine in your pool - normally used daily. The most common cause of pool water problems is lack of chlorine.[/*:m:dffma3k7]
2. pH Test - This important parameter of your pool water should be tested frequently. Too high and you can form calcium deposits (scaling). Too low and you can damage your equipment.[/*:m:dffma3k7]
3. Chlorine Test (FAS/DPD) - This test separates the TF-100 from cheaper "bargain" kits......most simply do not have this test. Measuring chlorine VERY precisely, even up to 50ppm+, this test is indispensable to a pool owner.....especially when correcting pool water problems.[/*:m:dffma3k7]
4. Combined Chloramines Test - CC's are a good indicator of the need to shock your pool. The TF-100 can measure CC's down to .2ppm. Cheaper kits will not have the CC's test.[/*:m:dffma3k7]
5. Calcium Hardness Test - measure the CH of your pool water and your fill water as well. This allows you to control and manage this important parameter. Excessive calcium contributes to scaling and too little can damage your plaster.[/*:m:dffma3k7]
6. Total Alkalinity Test - TA buffers your pH. While there is a lot of latitude with this parameter, close monitoring (testing) several times during the summer is essential.[/*:m:dffma3k7]
7. Cyanuric Acid Test - CYA protects your chlorine from sunlight. It must be kept at the proper level to be effective. Again, the cheaper kits do not perform this essential test[/*:m:dffma3k7]

You can compare the TFTestkits TF-100 vs. the Taylor K-2006 in the Pool School article Test Kits Compared. From a value perspective, you get a much larger volume of the most commonly used reagents for your money with the TF-100. The size of the reagents is listed in the table -- 2 ounces vs. 0.75 ounces of R-0871 FAS-DPD titrant, 1 ounce vs. 0.75 ounces of TA reagents, 1 ounce vs. 0.75 ounces of the CH reagents (except the indicator dye which is 0.5 ounces vs. 0.75 ounces because you don't use nearly as much of it as the other reagents), and 8 ounces vs. 1.5 ounces of CYA reagent, but you use more for the larger view tube in the TF-100 so the real comparison is 16 CYA tests in the TF-100 vs. 5 tests in the K-2006.

Yes, the FAS-DPD is very important because it is the only test that can accurately measure > 10 ppm FC (it measures up to 50 ppm) which is necessary if you ever need to shock the pool and it is far more accurate than visual comparator tests which is essential when doing an overnight chlorine loss test and also important if you are trying to skirt near the minimum FC for your CYA level.

Taylor says to change the reagents annually, but in practice they last for 2 years if you keep then in a cool dry place. Some of the reagents last much longer than others. The indicator dyes, FAS-DPD titrant and DPD powder tend to be the more sensitive ones. You won't be testing only once a week since presumably you will be adding chlorine more frequently than that. My next comments are assuming one is using primarily chlorinating liquid or bleach as their primary source of chlorine. The chlorine test is the one that you will do the most frequently and you should be doing the most since it is absolutely the most critical to ensure that the FC level never gets below the minimum for your CYA level. The next most important is the pH, but in some pools it can be stable enough to test weekly while in others you test it when you test and add chlorine. The TA doesn't change very quickly so could be tested weekly or monthly depending on your situation. The CH and CYA do not change very quickly so depending on your water dilution you can test that monthly or even less frequently depending on your situation.

 

[ping]

The Taylor K-2006C test is similar to the other test kits but has larger quantities, http://www.taylortechnologies.com/produ ... KitID=2235.

Most of us choose the TF-100 as it is portioned better for the home user.

 

[chiefwej]

TF-100 is by far the best choice for most pool owners. The sizes of reagents are proportioned to the amount needed for testing. It provides more than enough for a year of testing using a pool year round. They also offer a special on a refill kit each year at the beginning of the pool season. I also highly recommend you add the SpeedStir to make testing much quicker, easier and (most importantly) much more accurate. For those that need it, the XL option will provide double the FAS-DPD reagents for testing high chlorine levels when fighting an algae outbreak.


Pool pros are constantly replenishing the reagents in their kits, so the volume of each reagent is less important than the size and portability of the kit itself. But for the pool owner the TF-100 is perfect.

 

[nuklhed]

Okay, ChemGeek, you're right in the bullseye again. Which goes straight to the heart of my own particular issue; Presuming I find excess Ca+ in my pool water, how in heaven's name could I take some OUT?!? This subject has been driving me nuts, but probably for all the wrong reasons.

 

[chem geek]

If your Calcium Hardness (CH) is high, it can only be reduced by replacement of water lower in CH (including Reverse Osmosis which is available in some areas). However, you should be able to deal with a CH level of up to around 1000 ppm in your pool if you manage your TA lower and watch your pH. A pool with 1000 ppm CH, 80 ppm TA (with 50 ppm CYA) and a pH of 7.5 has a saturation index of +0.3 which normally would not scale in a pool (in a hot spa it might, but that's a different story). Normally for pools we don't start to see scale until the index gets to +0.7 or so and by +1.0 it usually scales in most pools. If your pH tends to rise or be at 7.7, then lowering the TA to 60 ppm would result in the same +0.3 saturation index.

A high CH is more of a problem in a pool with a saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) since the high pH at the hydrogen gas generation plate has it scale there. The use of 50 ppm Borates can help in that situation.

 

[nuklhed]

softened water in pool?

Point of the moment only a chem.geek might know: what is it about "softened" water that makes detergents work better, skin feel better, water taste better, with dish-spotting and lime deposits near zero? Shouldn't we experience all those improvements in a swimming pool too?
I was shocked to observe our house water carries a higher TDS load than the well. With even more crud in the water, how are all the benefits of softening possible?
This point, of course, leading back to subject of feasibility. Would waterline and splash-zone deposits be reduced similarly? Shouldn't we also enjoy the alleged superior swimming experience akin to salt water pools?.. without all those additional headaches?
Where is the knowledge on this subject? I've scrubbed the web fairly hard and not found any reports at all.
A dedicated softening unit just for this purpose would be an easily manageable expense, especially if it reduces longterm maintenance and chemical demand. In this case, the Ca+ ions from well water would be 'exchanged' with K+ from the salt flush. Is this switch likely to upset all that is known about swimming pool chemistry?
I'm pounding on this subject because the house I just bought was owned by a pool builder and he went nuts with masonry cascades. There are about 50 linear feet, or 150 sq.ft. of surface area of natural gray slate that has white deposit so thick the stone beneath is barely visible, and it was that way when I moved in. Even he, as an industry pro, didn't know how to deal with the deposit issue. At slow-drip sites the deposit is easily 1/2" thick and hard as rock, acid wash is pointless since it chews out the mortar too, so sandblast is the only option. It's an expensive and messy chore I'll not want to repeat.
This is a tough nut to crack.

 

[y_not]

You would be better off doing a soda blast, over sand. Less mess, not to mention you stand zero chance of harming the stone or grout underneath. Soda blasters are so effective and undamaging to the surface underneath, that they are used, among many things; to restore art and strip paint off vehicles, one layer at a time, leaving the primer layer intact, or even the pigment layer by just removing the clear coat only. Just a few examples as to the processes finite control and effectiveness.

The units are pretty cheap too!

 

[Patrick_B]

The best value is the TF-100 hands down. It is the smart money option. Yes, you need the FAS/DPD capability as well. There will be a time when you need to test FC/CC at high levels and this is the only kit that can do it. The OTO and plain DPD cannot.

Here is a comparison of the kits: pool-school/pool_test_kit_comparison

Get either kit here: http://tftestkits.net/splash-page.html (Dave is way better than Amazon for any pool test kit)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was replying to page one. SO that is covered.

Soft water will benefit a pool, but you still need some calcium in the water to prevent eroding the plaster based fininsh. Some of the calcium will still deposit on water splash areas. This will be most true where there are intermittently wet/dry areas, and it is unavoidable. The deposits will be somewhat less so with softer water, but always an issue. However, to fill a pool with soft water will require an enormous softener of industrial size and that is not something practical for the home user. Your average home softener with average hard water will take forever to fill a pool. Keeping a pool topped with softeners is do-able, but if you have very hard water it will require a large softener and lots of regeneration. It won't matter whether you choose NaCl or KaCl for that, just whatever your wallet can stand. If you want to treat your pool, RO treatment may likely be a better viable option. Later, you can top off with softened water, but you ought to run the math on it before hand to see what comes up.

Honestly, you will never see the ROI from soft water reducing your chemical use/demand at all. Over time, Chlorine is what will cost you money, and the softener does little to nothing for reducing that demand. Also, your water isn't that bad from a calcium standpoint at all. Yes it's hard, but nothing compared to mine at 710-720 CH, 800-810 TH. A CH of 400 is about as soft as it gets around here. Sorry to sound so discouraging, but your builder didn't think things through or didn't know. I tend to think the latter as much as anything after now having sat down with four or five builders on our project. Each one we have been with knew shockingly little about pool chemistry, and that has been quite a revelation to me.

 

[chem geek]

Re: softened water in pool?

TDS is not hardness
First of all, TDS and water softness/hardness are not at all the same thing. TDS is basically a useless number. It's what TDS is composed of that matters. The only thing TDS has any relation to is water conductivity and even then technically it's not the same but TDS is often measured using conductivity meters so when measured that way they are directly related. When TDS is measured by weighing evaporated water, then neutral (uncharged) molecules that contribute to TDS will not increase conductivity (and some of the substances that gas off such as the carbonates with carbon dioxide will not be measured). In pool water, borates are mostly in the form of boric acid so do not measure much as TDS in conductivity meters but would if measured as weight from evaporated water.

Salt is not "crud"
So when your TDS changed after softening the water, this is completely irrelevant. Substituting water hardness, which is from calcium and magnesium, with sodium or potassium makes the water softer, but the total amount of salt does not change (on a charge basis) so the TDS is not significantly affected and is, again, irrelevant. You essentially removed the water hardness portion of the water and substituted it with salt as sodium chloride or potassium chloride. Such salt is not "crud" -- it is very soluble and relatively non-reactive.

How soap/detergents work
The reason that soft water works better for detergents is that soaps and detergents are most often composed of fatty acids (often derived from triglycerides via a process of saponification which adds lye) which have a long-chain hydrocarbon (which is hydrophobic so avoids water) with a carboxylic acid end (which is hydrophilic so dissolves well in water). In water, these form micelles where the hydrocarbon ends all come together into a sphere with the carboxylic ends on the outside which lets this substance be dissolved in water. When there is grease or oil or other water insoluble substances exposed to this water, these micelles open up and the hydrocarbon ends attach to these water insoluble substances having the carboxylic ends sticking out into the water. This makes such formerly insoluble substances now become soluble in the water so they are removed from clothes and rinsed away with the water. Such soaps and detergents are also known as surfactants (though there are also surfactants that are not soap/detergent).

Soap/detergents and hardness
When calcium or magnesium ions are present in water (which together are measured and called water hardness), they combine with the carboxylic acid ends of the soaps/detergents and precipitate as soap scum which reduces the amount left to be able to clean or form suds. Also, water that is hard, specifically high in Calcium Hardness (CH) and also usually high in Total Alkalinity (TA) as with well water, can form calcium carbonate scale when the pH rises from carbon dioxide outgassing due to the high TA. It can also form such scale from evaporation of water on surfaces as when water is drained from a tub or basin leaving a thin film of water than then evaporates leaving the calcium carbonate behind.

Salt and hardness
When you refer to salt water pools, what are you talking about? Are you talking about ocean water pools? Are you talking about saltwater chlorine generator pools that are still chlorine pools? Just because a pool has more salt does not mean it is soft water. Again, these are separate concepts. The reason they seem tied together is because the process of water softening using an ion-exchange resin (as with your house water softener) substitutes water hardness with salt, but these are separate and one can have water that is salty and not hard or salty and hard or not salty and not hard or not salty and hard.

Calcium hardness and plaster pools
As for swimming pools and water hardness, plaster pool surfaces are composed partly of calcium carbonate so you need the pool water in contact with such surfaces to be saturated with calcium carbonate or else you will dissolve your pool plaster. Saturating the water with calcium carbonate means the water has to be hard, specifically high in calcium hardness (CH) where magnesium is not relevant. If you have a vinyl pool, then this higher calcium level is not necessary. Note however that if you make the water soft, then that has soap be able to suds more and in spas that typically have aeration you can get foaming. Is that what you want?

Soft vs. hard water pools
We haven't had any reports on this forum or others that I can remember where people have noticed how much more pleasant it was to swim in vinyl pools with low CH (much softer) water, even those with < 10 ppm CH water, compared to those with plaster pools where the CH is typically 300 ppm or to those in hard water areas where the pools may have 1000 ppm CH. The main issues with the higher CH water are in developing scale on pool surfaces if the CH is quite high (or the pH and/or TA get high) and on developing scale in saltwater chlorine generators. These problems are mitigated by keeping the TA lower, managing the pH, and using 50 ppm Borates that act as an additional pH buffer especially useful for SWG pools. One can, of course, use Reverse Osmosis (RO) to remove calcium (and everything else) from the water to lower those levels if they are very high.

Reducing hardness
So if you water is very hard, yes you can use either a water softener to replace calcium and magnesium with salt or you can use RO to remove these directly. However, for a plaster pool you will need higher calcium in the water to protect that plaster. That doesn't mean the water has to be so hard as to cause a problem. Plaster pools that are saturated (not over-saturated) with calcium carbonate do not form significant scale, but can see some effects at the tileline or splash-out due to evaporation. This happens somewhat less if the pool water is slightly under-saturated.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Re: softened water in pool?

TDS is not hardness
First of all, TDS and water softness/hardness are not at all the same thing. TDS is basically a useless number. It's what TDS is composed of that matters. The only thing TDS has any relation to is water conductivity and even then technically it's not the same but TDS is often measured using conductivity meters so when measured that way they are directly related. When TDS is measured by weighing evaporated water, then neutral (uncharged) molecules that contribute to TDS will not increase conductivity (and some of the substances that gas off such as the carbonates with carbon dioxide will not be measured). In pool water, borates are mostly in the form of boric acid so do not measure much as TDS in conductivity meters but would if measured as weight from evaporated water.

Salt is not "crud"
So when your TDS changed after softening the water, this is completely irrelevant. Substituting water hardness, which is from calcium and magnesium, with sodium or potassium makes the water softer, but the total amount of salt does not change (on a charge basis) so the TDS is not significantly affected and is, again, irrelevant. You essentially removed the water hardness portion of the water and substituted it with salt as sodium chloride or potassium chloride. Such salt is not "crud" -- it is very soluble and relatively non-reactive.

How soap/detergents work
The reason that soft water works better for detergents is that soaps and detergents are most often composed of fatty acids (often derived from triglycerides via a process of saponification which adds lye) which have a long-chain hydrocarbon (which is hydrophobic so avoids water) with a carboxylic acid end (which is hydrophilic so dissolves well in water). In water, these form micelles where the hydrocarbon ends all come together into a sphere with the carboxylic ends on the outside which lets this substance be dissolved in water. When there is grease or oil or other water insoluble substances exposed to this water, these micelles open up and the hydrocarbon ends attach to these water insoluble substances having the carboxylic ends sticking out into the water. This makes such formerly insoluble substances now become soluble in the water so they are removed from clothes and rinsed away with the water. Such soaps and detergents are also known as surfactants (though there are also surfactants that are not soap/detergent).

Soap/detergents and hardness
When calcium or magnesium ions are present in water (which together are measured and called water hardness), they combine with the carboxylic acid ends of the soaps/detergents and precipitate as soap scum which reduces the amount left to be able to clean or form suds. Also, water that is hard, specifically high in Calcium Hardness (CH) and also usually high in Total Alkalinity (TA) as with well water, can form calcium carbonate scale when the pH rises from carbon dioxide outgassing due to the high TA. It can also form such scale from evaporation of water on surfaces as when water is drained from a tub or basin leaving a thin film of water than then evaporates leaving the calcium carbonate behind.

Salt and hardness
When you refer to salt water pools, what are you talking about? Are you talking about ocean water pools? Are you talking about saltwater chlorine generator pools that are still chlorine pools? Just because a pool has more salt does not mean it is soft water. Again, these are separate concepts. The reason they seem tied together is because the process of water softening using an ion-exchange resin (as with your house water softener) substitutes water hardness with salt, but these are separate and one can have water that is salty and not hard or salty and hard or not salty and not hard or not salty and hard.

Calcium hardness and plaster pools
As for swimming pools and water hardness, plaster pool surfaces are composed partly of calcium carbonate so you need the pool water in contact with such surfaces to be saturated with calcium carbonate or else you will dissolve your pool plaster. Saturating the water with calcium carbonate means the water has to be hard, specifically high in calcium hardness (CH) where magnesium is not relevant. If you have a vinyl pool, then this higher calcium level is not necessary. Note however that if you make the water soft, then that has soap be able to suds more and in spas that typically have aeration you can get foaming. Is that what you want?

Soft vs. hard water pools
We haven't had any reports on this forum or others that I can remember where people have noticed how much more pleasant it was to swim in vinyl pools with low CH (much softer) water, even those with < 10 ppm CH water, compared to those with plaster pools where the CH is typically 300 ppm or to those in hard water areas where the pools may have 1000 ppm CH. The main issues with the higher CH water are in developing scale on pool surfaces if the CH is quite high (or the pH and/or TA get high) and on developing scale in saltwater chlorine generators. These problems are mitigated by keeping the TA lower, managing the pH, and using 50 ppm Borates that act as an additional pH buffer especially useful for SWG pools. One can, of course, use Reverse Osmosis (RO) to remove calcium (and everything else) from the water to lower those levels if they are very high.

Reducing hardness
So if you water is very hard, yes you can use either a water softener to replace calcium and magnesium with salt or you can use RO to remove these directly. However, for a plaster pool you will need higher calcium in the water to protect that plaster. That doesn't mean the water has to be so hard as to cause a problem. Plaster pools that are saturated (not over-saturated) with calcium carbonate do not form significant scale, but can see some effects at the tileline or splash-out due to evaporation. This happens somewhat less if the pool water is slightly under-saturated.

My head hurts every time i read one of your technical posts. Whith that being said i enjoy your analysis/statements

 

[nuklhed]

Wow, chem.geek - that education would cost me a bundle at a college - both in time and money. Thanks for the expanded version.
As for salt-water pools, I was just referring to their alleged 'more pleasant swimming experience', regardless of type. Obviously we only have SWG here in the desert, but I've not had the experience personally.
As for RO, the way I understand it, either I need a very fancy system with its own pump to raise pressure high enough to reduce the waste outflow; or I'll get ten times the wastewater at line pressure (60psi); in either case overworks a domestic septic system. And I'm learning also risks plaster erosion if the idea is pushed too much.
So far there's still not much hope for reducing lime deposits all over my cascades. I'm not sure simple careful balancing will offer much improvement... just a reduction. I'm beginning to think a better plan would be to simply demo all that lovely masonry and replace with simple dumb plaster - at least it will all be white then. }:-(

 

[chem geek]

The more pleasant feel to the water that some report in saltwater chlorine generator pools is most likely due to the higher salt levels and probably has nothing to do with the hardness level since some SWG pools are plaster pools with 300 ppm or so CH while others are vinyl pools with 50 ppm or lower CH. Again, hardness and salt levels are different things. The "softer" feel is more likely due to the salt level in SWG pools at 3000 ppm being closer to the 9000 ppm salt level of sweat and cell fluids. This higher salt level reduces osmotic pressure where water tends to flow into cells since the cells are less "concentrated" in water (due to the higher salt level). This is what causes one's fingers to get wrinkled so this effect happens more quickly in non-SWG (low salt) pools compared to SWG (higher salt) pools. Low salt levels is also what causes eyes to feel more pressure and hurt (see this paper).

There is a downside to the higher salt levels, however. It can be damaging to soft stone if there are splash-out and evaporation cycles. This depends on the quality of the stone, whether or not it is sealed, whether there are summer rains to dilute the salt, and on the rate of evaporation that depends on temperature and humidity. So if you do replace your stone waterfall with an SWG pool's higher salt level running over it, be sure to use a harder (less water absorbent) stone material.

Did you ever post a full set of water chemistry numbers? Did you ever get a proper test kit -- either the TFTestkits TF-100 or the Taylor K-2006? I don't see how we can have a rational discussion about solving or mitigating the problems you bring up if we don't even know the actual pH, TA and CH numbers of the water you are talking about. If your water was that terribly hard, you should be having serious problems with your saltwater chlorine generator not outputting enough or having voluminous flakes of calcium carbonate come out of the returns every time the SWG polarity was reversed.

 

[nuklhed]

Western supplier of Boric Acid - AT LAST!!

55-lb bag = $58.95. Shipping to Las Vegas 89149 = $18 Your mileage may vary
Del Amo Chemicals
535 W. 152nd St.
Gardena, CA 90248
310-532-9214
Ask for Mary Jane (seriously, that's her name).
Write this down guys, somewhere you can't lose it, because it was not easy to find.
-- da nuklhed

 

[linen]

Assuming that is Boric acid, that is a good price, do you know what grade it is?

 

[y_not]

That's cheaper than DudaDiesel.com!
How on earth did you find this? Is it granular, or powder?

Looks like this is their website: http://www.delamochemical.com

 

[FamilyGuy]

Looks like you can buy borax or boric acid or just about anything else lol

 

[nuklhed]

West coast Boric Acid supplier

I'm pleased so many noticed the post. Perhaps we should populate it around TFP into other threads too, since so few of us are tracking in this one.
Grade?: Dunno for sure, but at this price and quantity is surely must be 'technical'. Meaning, I presume, commercial. Along the way I learned it's made mostly in India, by a process treating borax with sulfuric acid - not a happy enterprise so we can imagine what such factory might look like. EPA here would be all over an operation like that, like ugly on an ape.
Type?: I didn't ask, although I sure should have - but after scouring the web and working the phone for weeks, I was giddy at finding the product at all, much less at such better price. I'll be getting a bag in a few days, they ship UPS, and I'll post what I see. Let's hope it's granular so it will go into solution easier.
How?: I think it was a Google search on a string something like "west coast supplier boric acid bulk" Or, maybe "california supplier commercial chemicals". After that, it was working the phone down the list until it hit.
-- da nuklhed

 

[nuklhed]

If your water was that terribly hard, you should be having serious problems with your saltwater chlorine generator not outputting enough or having voluminous flakes of calcium carbonate come out of the returns every time the SWG polarity was reversed.

Still learning more and more, thanks to Chem.Geek. My pool does have the SWG but had fallen into disuse by time I bought house. No salt in pool either, that we can tell. TDS meter would show that, right? Yes, simple conductivity tester, showing only 800ppm.
No carbonate flakes either, although most lately I am seeing some weird white granular flake on the bottom, very small quantity, probably incidental to recent minor waterline cleaning efforts.

 

[nuklhed]

Did you ever post a full set of water chemistry numbers? Did you ever get a proper test kit -- either the TFTestkits TF-100 or the Taylor K-2006? I don't see how we can have a rational discussion about solving or mitigating the problems you bring up if we don't even know the actual pH, TA and CH numbers of the water you are talking about.

TF-100 test kit just ordered, results coming soon. Bought from 'poolsupplyworld.com' same price $68 but only $8 shipping. "tftestkits.net" showed over $20 shipping, which I thought was excessive. Maybe they ought to revisit their pricing web-routine to reflect what it will actually cost, otherwise it just looks like profit-padding.

 

[chem geek]

TF-100 test kit just ordered, results coming soon. Bought from 'poolsupplyworld.com' same price $68 but only $8 shipping. "tftestkits.net" showed over $20 shipping, which I thought was excessive. Maybe they ought to revisit their pricing web-routine to reflect what it will actually cost, otherwise it just looks like profit-padding.

TFTestkits uses Pool Supply World to stock the kits on the West coast which is why both sources are listed in Test Kits Compared. It's the carriers that set the shipping price and they charge more when shipping from the East coast to the West compared to shipping from already being on the West coast to a West coast location (i.e. it's cheaper to ship from California to Nevada than from North Carolina to Nevada). Shipping in bulk is much cheaper so Pool Supply World can be seen as a West coast distributor for TFTestkits.