3 Wire Pump Setup With Spa Panel Disconnect

[midwests]

Can someone verify if this setup seems correct. From everything I've read this is what I come up with. I currently have a 240V line coming from the main panel to an old switch near the pump. There are three lines coming from the main, 2 black load wires and a green ground wire. The old switch connects to the old pump.

I want to replace the pump and replace the old switch with a GFI spa panel as a new disconnect. The new pump I have is pretty straight forward as it can run 240V with Load 1 and Load 2 wires and a ground wire. I'm questioning the connection from the main panel to the spa panel disconnect because there is not neutral line. Everything I've read says you don't need it and you don't need to hookup the pig tail on the GFI breaker on the spa panel, and the GFI will still work fine. I've uploaded a diagram as a visual, I hope it makes sense.

Thanks in advance for the help!!

 

[atttech-2]

For the GFCI to operate when there is a ground fault you usually connect it to the neutral but since you don't have one you will need to connect it to the ground. You can use the neutral bar as you have in your diagram but if you do be sure the green ground screw that bonds the neutral bar to the case and by extension the ground is in place. or simply run the white wire from the breaker to the ground bar.

 

[CJadamec]

Don't bond the neutral and ground bus that is not the right way to do things. There is only 1 place in a residence where the neutral and ground bus should be bonded and that is where the line from the utility pole comes into the house.

The 2 pole GFCI breaker will work just fine without a neutral bus connection.

 

[midwests]

Don't bond the neutral and ground bus that is not the right way to do things. There is only 1 place in a residence where the neutral and ground bus should be bonded and that is where the line from the utility pole comes into the house.

The 2 pole GFCI breaker will work just fine without a neutral bus connection.

There is no neutral coming into the spa panel at all, therefor the neutral bar is irrelevant, correct? I connected the green ground wire from the main and the green ground wire to the pump to the ground bar in the spa panel. I also connected the pig tail from the GFI breaker to the ground bar as shown in the attached diagram. It seemed to work fine and the breaker did trip when I pushed the test button.

Is this correct then?

Thank you both for responding!

 

[atttech-2]

Agreed you are not supposed to bond neutral to ground anywhere but the main panel but there is no neutral in this case just a ground.

The real question here is what if anything do you do with the line side neutral of the GFCI breaker in a circuit that is 240V only. Try as I might I can't find a definitive answer it looks like the answer is it depends on the breaker. Some 2 pole GFCI breakers use the neutral to operate internal electronics of the breakers and some operate and sense fault via internal coils only. I would try contacting the breaker manufacture they should be able to tell you if you must have a neutral to operate the electronics of the breaker or if you can just terminate the neutral pigtail.

 

[atttech-2]

Midwests you responded while I was thinking/typing, that happens to me a lot . I would still check with the manufacture and this is not some thing that should be guessed at. Normally I would say check with a licensed electrician but I think if you asked a bunch of electrician you would be surprised at the different answers.

 

[midwests]

Ok, I called Eaton because it's one of their panels and they said that I need to run a neutral to the spa panel from the main. Then hook the pig tail neutral to the neutral bar. She said there has to be a neutral wire coming to the spa panel from the main. This will create a loop at the main panel because that's where the neutral and ground are bonded. Then the breaker can sense through the ground wire and trip. This seems like a long way around what I'm already doing. Isn't this the same as me attaching the pigtail to the ground in the spa panel?

 

[CJadamec]

Its not really the same thing. By connecting to the ground wire you are creating a situation which could cause the ground wires in your house to have a constant voltage above zero. Since there is no neutral in your panel I would tape off the end of the white pigtail and not connect it to anything. If the test button still trips the breaker leave it that way.


GFCI doesn't need a neutral to work. GFCI trips based off of a difference in current between the hot legs. If the amount of current going out doesn't match the current coming back it must be going somewhere its not supposed to and the breaker trips. In a 240v 2 pole breaker the GFCI works as a L1 to L2 sensing circuit and it also works as an L1 or L2 to neutral sensing circuit. It will work either way. It will also work both ways at the same time. Unless the breaker needs the neutral buss connection to power its own internal circuits, some do and some don't, the breaker will work and have full GFCI protection on the L1 and L2 hot wires going to the pump.

 

[pooldv]

OP,
Code in most (all?) areas requires an insulated ground wire, preferably green, for swimming pools. You can wire it as CJadamec referenced it here:

GFCI doesn't need a neutral to work. GFCI trips based off of a difference in current between the hot legs. If the amount of current going out doesn't match the current coming back it must be going somewhere its not supposed to and the breaker trips. In a 240v 2 pole breaker the GFCI works as a L1 to L2 sensing circuit and it also works as an L1 or L2 to neutral sensing circuit. It will work either way. It will also work both ways at the same time. Unless the breaker needs the neutral buss connection to power its own internal circuits, some do and some don't, the breaker will work and have full GFCI protection on the L1 and L2 hot wires going to the pump.

Of course, we always recommend that you consult local building codes for your area, check with your local building department and hire a qualified electrician who is familiar with pool wiring if you are not completely comfortable with doing the work yourself.

 

[midwests]

Thanks everyone for the help! Right now I have it configured with the pigtail to the ground wires and the GFI test button does work. The pump also runs fine in this configuration. I'm going to try and disconnect the pigtail and cap it just to see what happens.

In the meanwhile I went to Eatons website and found the diagram below for the breaker in the install instructions. This was for the breaker alone not with the subpanel. Isn't the neutral tied to the ground by bonding in the 240v configuration? It's not hooked on the load side. That seems to be essentially the same way I have it setup. I don't have a nuetral from the main box to the sub panel so there should be no concern tying this to ground as it doesn't carry a load and just monitors voltage variance. Am I missing something?

Oh, my wire is run through PVC conduit. Don't get me wrong I want this to be safe I just don't want to run a neutral wire if it's not necessary.

Also is there a safe way to test the GFI protection outside of the button?

 

[CJadamec]

What you have circled is the nuetral ground bond that is located where your utility service enters you house. That is the one and only place those two wires are supposed to be directly connected to each other. Where they are connected is also the closest point to the grounding rods for your house.

The absolute best solution would be for you to pull a neutral wire out to that panel.

Short of that the white pigtail should not be connected to anything. GFCI devices do not monitor voltage they measure current. They will trip when they detect more than a 5 miliamp difference between L1 and L2 when wired without a neutral​. Your pump has no nuetral wire to carry any current so unless you are wiring more things to that breaker that actually need a neutral.