new pool in AZ

[willow0207]

Hi - we haven't signed a contract yet, but looking at two different PBs and trying to understand all the diff pool equipment/construction choices...both PBs are similar in offering Pentair products. Here's what I have thus far:

POOL:

• surface area: 520sf
• perimeter: 106'
• 34'x19' (design is 32'x19' rectangle(ish) - has a 5'x16' baja shelf in it and an attached spa)
• 17,600 gallons
• Pentair clean and clear plus 520 filter
• Intelliflow VSF pump
• EasyTouch4 automation
• Intellichlor SCG
• MasterTemp 400k BTU heater
• Paramount Infloor Cleaning w 20 heads -- I'll ask for the vac line just in case I'd like a vacuum too, noticed that in a lot of the threads here!
• 2 skimmers
• 1 LED light

SPA CONNECTED TO POOL:

• spa surface area: 65sf
• perimeter: 32' (8 feet square)
• spa pump: IntelliFloXF VSF
• spa blower: Advantage Manufacturing 2HP Quiet-flo
• 6 more infloor cleaning heads in spa with Paramount system
• 1 LED light

The design includes 3 - 36" sheers on a back wall and a raised spa built with overflow into the pool.
We live in Phoenix. Lots of dust, lots of heat, lots of sun. And we have lots of Palo Verde trees abutting our property.

So here's my questions so far:
- one PB initially wanted to do the Clean and Clear 420, it's necessary to do the 520, no?
- what is the difference between the IntelliFlowXF VSF and the IntelliFlow VSF pumps? Is there a reason to have a different pump-type for spa and pool or should i just have two of the same pumps? I'd like to be able to run the sheers and the spa jets at same time.
- for the Intellichlor SCG, would you recommend I do the IC60? Besides the price, is there a reason to choose IC40, or IC20?
- For the EasyTouch 4. Is there a difference between this line and the IntelliCenter listed on the Pentair website. I've got one PB saying EasyTouch4 and another saying IntelliCenter. Not sure what difference is. How does the SCG integration work? I'm confused on the diff between the EasyTouch 4 and the EasyTouch 4PSC.
- is there a big difference between quality with 8" on center versus 12" on center for the rebar? I'm assuming this is more of an engineering question, but one PB seems really excited to sell on this point of being an 8" on center builder.
- One PB has a few closed complaints on BBB and 2 resolved/settled/withdrawn complaints on our AZROC site. Should this be a big red flag? We do like the design/sales team from this PB thus far.

I feel like there are a million things I should be considering when reviewing details still. What am I missing? Is there any better configuration/equipment questions I should consider?

Thanks so much for your help!!

- Willow0207, newby with no pool experience!

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum! :handshake:

I will put my views on a couple items but others will chime in tomorrow to address all your questions.

Get the largest filter that will fit and you can afford. The larger the less often you have to clean it.

Get the IC60. Here in the desert you will have a larger FC demand than many areas. The larger SWCG will let you get by with only 8-10 hours per day to generate your chlorine in the summer.

Be sure you want the in floor cleaning system. Some love them, some are turning them off and buying a robot. A robot will get the pool much cleaner. But you have to put it in the pool, clean its filters, etc. Your choice.

I would get the base Intelliflo pumps. 011018. No need to have the F models.

I would say get the Easytouch 8 if you are going to be controlling lights, etc. Either way get the PS (Pool Spa) model with the integrated SWCG power supply.

Do you have a house water softener? If you do, see if you can plumb a line to your auto fill from it. Adding softened water for makeup water will allow you to not have to drain and refill your pool every couple years due to calcium buildup.

I suggest you read Pool School - ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry and consider reviewing the entire Trouble Free Pool School book.

 

[jblizzle]

Welcome to TFP!

Wow that is a lot of questions to start with

A bigger filter is usually better. But the 420 could be large enough depending on your pool volume.

The XF is a larger pump that will move more water. You would need to have some very high water flow needs to require that.

The swg should be two to three times the size of your pool. Nothing really wrong with going with the ic60.

More rebar means a stronger shell.

That's all the questions I can remember off the top of my head

I would personally not get it in the floor cleaning system. They get very mixed reviews here. They require much higher flow rates meaning you need a larger pump which is going to use more electricity. A robot will likely clean the pool better and faster.

 

[Dirk]

I agree with Marty about the ET8. I wish I had one, and I have a simple, small pool. But whatever you do, be sure the model you end up with DOES NOT have an "L" in its model number. Stands for "lite" and they are hobbled by Pentair and so have very limited capability. Ask your PBs for the model number, absolutely no "PSL4" or "PL4"!

I've used suction- and pressure-side pool cleaners. Never a robot, never in-floor. That said, I'd never consider an in-floor system. Count 'em up: 20+6 cleaning heads!?! 26 failure points. 26 pipes and sets of elbows and fittings running under your pool! Which all run to a specialized, complicated valve manifold! Etc, etc. For controversial cleaning efficiency at best. And I believe they are both the most expensive to install (by far) and the most expensive to run (by far). Why are these even being sold? (To be fair, I think they are popular in desert/sand environments, so maybe that's way.)



Robot = no additional plumbing!
Vacuums = one pipe run, one valve, one opening in the side of your pool (nothing underneath your pool).

I often suggest in build threads to eliminate the drains, in part because of the aesthetic appeal of having a pristine, uninterrupted pool floor (I LOVE mine that way). I can't imagine an additional 26 holes punched through my pool!

Congrats on the build. Welcome to TFP. You'll get some great advice here about your build, all throughout the process, and then how to take care of your pool once it's got water in it. Good luck, have fun!!

 

[Dirk]

- One PB has a few closed complaints on BBB and 2 resolved/settled/withdrawn complaints on our AZROC site. Should this be a big red flag? We do like the design/sales team from this PB thus far.

Yes. See if you can get this design/sales team to disclose what happened in all instances, at least their version. Ask to speak to any of the Complainants. You won't likely have that opportunity, but it's how they answer your request that matters as much as whether they'll let you or not. People have to be pretty po'd to go to those lengths. And more importantly, the PB has to be pretty, what, belligerent to allow disputes to get that far. There was substantial money involved, no doubt. Could be just a simple case of a misunderstanding, of course, or a vindictive client, it happens, but when it comes to contractors (forgive me, all of you out there) it is guilty until proven innocent as far as I'm concerned. Obviously, I've had a bad run in with a pool contractor, and other contractors, too, so you can color me biased. But one thing I learned during my process, which required CA's version of AZROC to resolve: my complaint against my contractor, in which I prevailed, will never be seen by the public! For any of my contractor's misdeeds to become public, he has to violate consumers multiple times. I hope that is not the case with yours. Good job even checking on this, as most people don't. I'd suggest you do more to get to the bottom of what happened...

PS: The design/sales team are not the people that will be building your pool, nor will they be the ones responsible for resolving (and paying for) any issues...

 

[Dirk]

PPS: Stand by for TFP's "Pentair Guy." He'll no doubt be along in a bit to sort out the Pentair details...

PPPS:
- Ask about eliminating drains (not needed, better looking, safer, nothing to snag toes, cleaners and brushing).

- Ask about an auto-fill system, and an overflow system. Two things I really like about my pool.

- Ask about an IntellipH system. Not something often recommended around here, but like you will have, I have high TA fill water and an SWG, which drive up pH, which requires acid to adjust. All your water features will also drive up pH, which will require more acid to adjust. An IntellipH is an automated acid-dosing system, from Pentair, that works hand-in-hand with the Pentair SWG system to help maintain chemical balance with minimum effort on your part. Since I installed them on my pool, I have not had to dose my pool with anything, for months. Luxurious. Along with the water softener hook up Marty recommended (which I also have), you can really cut down on a lot of pool maintenance. The IntellipH can be added later, quite easily, so it is not something you need to decide up front. You could wait until your pool gets going to determine how it might benefit you. But they take up about 18" square, so you might consider leaving room for one when they pour your equipment pad.

 

[Arizonarob]

As a member of the dust bowl valley, ill offer up my 2 cents.

Loose the in floor cleaning system and the main drain, not needed. Get a single suction side port and a good robot.

The IFCS is a bunch of holes in the shell of your pool/spa waiting to leak. Here in the desert we have a lot of fine dust that settles to the bottom of the pool, and all the pop-ups do is blow the dust around in the pool, rather then doing it’s intended job of pushing it to the main drain. So you’ll be vacuuming more then you think.

With the use of a robot (spend some time reading the pool cleaner section) it’s a matter of dropping it in, pushing a button, and 2 hours later you have a clean pool.
With the addition of a suction side port, you now have the availability to A. Manually vac when needed, and B. You can now toss in a suction bot to clean the pool while you’re on vacation.
And not to mention the savings you’ll see by not paying for all that extra plumbing.

And lastly, I would look at adding an extra skimmer, it will come in very handy with those trees you have around your property.

 

[Dirk]

Hey Rob, can you correct me if I was wrong about the in-floor? While I 100% support your assessment about in-floor, (which supports mine), I thought I had read here somewhere that they work slightly better on the type of desert dust you all get down there, than say leaves and such that other parts of the world might get. No?

Again, not endorsing in-floor in any way, just attempting to be fair and thorough.

 

[Arizonarob]

Larger debris such as sand, small organic matter, etc.., IFCS have a better chance of pushing the debris towards its intended target. (Main drain) The super fine dust we get here, while some of it actually floats and ends up in the skimmer, most of it settles to the floor. When the pop-ups activate, rather then pushing the dust, it just blends it back into the water, only to fall back to the floor when the pump is off.

Here is an outstanding thread started by a fellow TFP’er, and also a Phoenix native, Jonpcar. He’s explaining and trying to get his IFCS to run more efficiently as well as taking care of the problems I mentioned above.

https://www.troublefreepool.com/thr...n-Floor-Cleaning-Effectiveness-and-Efficiency

 

[chiefwej]

You will learn to HATE those Palo Verdes. Buy the biggest filter you can afford. Add a second skimmer. Unless you have a deep diving well in the pool, the infloor will be useless. If it’s a sports pool with a relatively flat bottom they will just blow the debris around. If it winds up in a drain, it’s just by accident. Save your money. Buy a good robot. It will clean the pool much better and at a fraction of the cost to buy, and more importantly, to operate.
With a SWG pool (highly recommend), a spill over spa, and the sheers, your going to have a lot of aeration. You will be buying acid by the truck load if you really run the sheers and spillover.

You want a variable speed (VS) pump, not a variable flow (VF) pump. The basic Intelliflo VS 011018 is a solid, economical choice. You could save even more on the build by using a single speed or 2 speed pump for spa, or even foregoing the second pump altogether, and use actuated valves to power from a single pump. Make sure that pump couplings are used for future repairs or replacement.

 

[kimkats]

Well everyone above me has the equipment covered. So I will touch on the things you did not mention.

Plumbing:
-make sure the skimmers (like said above you will want 2) are on home runs to the pad and each have their own valves.
-If you do get a main drain it should have it's own run and valve
-returns-how many and where?
-valves-ONLY "good" ones. Here is one example: Amazon.com: Pentair 263038 1-1/2-Inch 2-Way PVC Diverter Valve: Garden Outdoor There are many kinds so pick what your PB likes.

Kim

 

[MyAZPool]

Willow 0207
I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here on pump selection for a fellow zoni.
After a lot of research and getting advice from many, I decided to throw down on the new IntelliFlo VSF 011056. I didn't really know what to expect other than from my research.

Well, after two weeks now, I'm certainly sold. With the VSF, you can take advantage of both worlds (variable speed and variable flow). It truly is like Pentair advertises - "It's like cruise control for your pump". I really have fallen in love with this pump so far (don't tell my wife)!

One of the big advantages is, as your filter begins to get dirty, it will begin to speed up slightly to maintain the set water flow.

But, I suggest that you do your own research online, get lot's of different viewpoints and then make your own informed decision.

The VSF is a bit more costly than just the VS or VF pumps, but can be had through phone orders (it cannot be sold "online" due to it's "Trade Grade" designation).
You should be able to get it for less than $1,000.00.

Hope this helps you to make your pump selection "clear as mud".
Good luck on the new pool build. This site is a great info depot.

 

[jblizzle]

Of course the downside to the vsf is if you're not paying attention to your filter getting dirty the speed could get ramped up very high and make your electric meter spin awfully quickly

 

[MyAZPool]

Of course the downside to the vsf is if you're not paying attention to your filter getting dirty the speed could get ramped up very high and make your electric meter spin awfully quickly

Absolutely agree. I feel that nothing about automation/technology means that you can just "forget" about regular preventative checks and maintenance. Keeping an eye on that filter pressure gauge reading is a MUST. My thoughts are that automation, high tech pumps, IntelliChem, IntellipH, IntelliChlor (or their other than Pentair counterparts) just makes the job of pool maintenance a little easier but does not preclude one from regular testing, checking and observation.

 

[spoonman]

Everyone will have a different opinion, but I would seriously consider getting a large sand filter.

I’m also in Arizona and deal mostly with sand/dust. I probably backwash my pool about 4 or 5 times a year, which only involves me unrolling a hose, turning a valve, and pumping for 1 minute or so. A sand filter in the desert seems to work great since the pool debris is basically sand anyway.

Water waste isn’t a big issue since the backwashes are short and infrequent. Also, think of backwashing as bloodletting for your pool. The water replacement helps keep CYA and CH in Check to a small degree.

If you are interested in sand, I’d consider a Pentair Triton TR-100C or even larger. They will take whatever you throw at them. Bulletproof.

 

[MyAZPool]

Everyone will have a different opinion, but I would seriously consider getting a large sand filter. I’m also in Arizona and deal mostly with sand/dust. I probably backwash my pool about 4 or 5 times a year, which involves me unrolling a hose, turning a valve, and pumping for 1 minute or so. A sand filter in the desert seems to work great since the pool debris is basically sand anyway.

Completely agree spoonman. We both have the same filter, and I have the same experience with backwashes. Maybe a few more times for me during those bad monsoon seasons that dump pounds of dirt in my pool.

 

[spoonman]

They definitely work great. I’ve also learned not to overdo it on backwash frequency as a somewhat dirty sand filter actually filters the water better than a clean filter. I just watch the pressure gauge.