Adjusting In Floor Pool Cleaners

[runboy]

I have a question regarding my in floor A&A pool cleaners.

1. It says in the manual: "If your pool is equipped with a heater or salt chlorinator, make sure theheater bypass valve is adjusted properly and is not completely closed." Right now I am just running everything through my water heater and nothing through the bypass. So how much should I run through the bypass?

2. Guess this question could be connected to question 1 There is a pressure gauge on top of the floor cleaner valve. Doesn't work right now, but I have ordered a replacement. What exactly am I looking for on this gauge?

 

[Dodger]

The basic idea of in floor cleaners is to use high pressure to spray the maximum distance rated for each pop-up nozzle and zone. The pressure gauge in question #2 is your way to see this pressure. Typically, you want a minimum of 14psi there.

I think the 1st question is related in the sense that running through the heater will reduce the pressure at your floor cleaner valve. If you bypass the heater, you may be able to run the VS pump at lower rpm and still achieve enough pressure in the floor system valve.

Of course, you only need that minimum pressure if you are trying to "clean". If you are using the pop-ups for heated water distribution, you shouldn't need 14psi to pop them up enough for that.

 

[runboy]

Thanks Dodger. Where does the 14psi come from? Didn't see it referenced in my documentation.

 

[Dodger]

As you can see in my signature, I have a Caretaker, which has a 12-14psi min depending on if you talk to Zodiac or aftermarket support.

I don't know if this is an aftermarket Paramount vendor that suggests 14psi:

Paramount Infloor Systems Frequently Asked Questions

Perhaps other TFPers with A&A will chime in on their experience.

 

[KDpoolguy]

I have a A&A 5 port IFC. I’m only plumbed directly through the heater, no bypass. I plan on adding a SWG & bypass when time comes for a new heater (due to copper heat sink pipes on old heater outlet), but it’s not affecting pressure I need to get cleaning heads to function. I’m sure there’s a more energy efficient way by bypassing, but more valves more confusion and cost and sitting water in heater is no bueno.
I only have a pressure gauge at the filter, and none ‘downstream’, so much of the adjustment was guesses once VS pump went in, and adjusting port rotation time in the A&A valve.
Is there a more specific concern?

 

[runboy]

As you can see in my signature, I have a Caretaker, which has a 12-14psi min depending on if you talk to Zodiac or aftermarket support.

I don't know if this is an aftermarket Paramount vendor that suggests 14psi:

Paramount Infloor Systems Frequently Asked Questions

Perhaps other TFPers with A&A will chime in on their experience.

Ok, so I got a new pressure gauge for my cleaner and sure enough, it does help the pressure if I bypass the heater a little. I seem to get the most pressure if I place the bypass valve right between the two.
So right now my pressure depends on what the cleaning system is doing. I have popups above (Spa) and below (pool) pump level:

Popups Cycling = 15-16 psi
Pool Popups active = 10 psi
Spa Popups active = 12 psi

Should I see if I can increase the pressure when the popups are active?
Right now a little bit of the water is going to a waterfall above the Spa. I can shut that off and my lower levels increase or I can maybe up the speed on my pump a little

 

[Dodger]

Yes, you can play with pump speed.

What do you want to accomplish? Is the current setting doing a sufficient job of cleaning the floor? If not, can you describe the issue?

By the way, what brand cleaner valve do you have? I'm not clear what your 3 categories are. Does the pool have more than one zone? And the spa is another zone in the cycle? Not sure what "Popups Cycling" means versus the other 2.

(Sorry for all the questions.)

 

[runboy]

Yes, you can play with pump speed.

What do you want to accomplish? Is the current setting doing a sufficient job of cleaning the floor? If not, can you describe the issue?

By the way, what brand cleaner valve do you have? I'm not clear what your 3 categories are. Does the pool have more than one zone? And the spa is another zone in the cycle? Not sure what "Popups Cycling" means versus the other 2.

(Sorry for all the questions.)

I have never seen an infloor cleaning system actually being able to effectively clean a pool, so of course the more effective the better. I guess I would like some of the pop ups to spray a little harder. I have order a tool to remove them so I can make sure there is no debris trappped. Some of them seem to be spraying pretty good. Others not so much.

The system is A&A and the pop ups are Type II

pump speed is close to the max that was set by the installer, so I am a little concerned about upping that one. The pump is capable of higher speed, but I don’t know if I would reach deadhead if trying higher.

5 zones with the spa being one of the zones. When I write cycling I mean when one zone close and another opens. That’s when the pressure increases to 15-16 psi

 

[Dodger]

I agree not to push the pump speed too high, but what rpm is it currently at and what is the associated filter pressure?

I would definitely close off the waterfall to see how much that helps.

Going back to your earlier comment, I am a little surprised that your max pressure is achieved with the heater bypass partially open. I would continue to test that.

I am also surprised that you would have HIGHER pressure while the valve cycles from one zone to the other. Perhaps the A&A behaves differently than my Caretaker, which DROPs 5-6psi while transitioning between zones. Has the valve been cleaned or rebuilt at some point? Is there a little screen filter before the valve?

Pulling out and checking all the pop-ups is another good step. In addition to inspecting for debris, hand actuate each one to test for smooth operation, both up/down and rotationally. Another level of detail is to consider the synchronization of the pop-ups in each zone. One downside of running the floor system on a VSP is that the pop-ups can get out of sync if you send water through them at low rpms and they don't pop up all the way. Then they are all spraying random directions.

 

[runboy]

I agree not to push the pump speed too high, but what rpm is it currently at and what is the associated filter pressure?

When cleaning 2850RPM and 16 PSI Filter Pressure

I would definitely close off the waterfall to see how much that helps.

Problem is I like to have it flowing, but I guess I could buy some automatic valve actuators and shut it down during my cleaning cycle.

Going back to your earlier comment, I am a little surprised that your max pressure is achieved with the heater bypass partially open. I would continue to test that.

The bypass has a couple of 90s and with a complete bypass I don't really get higher pressure than with everything going through the heater. If I put the Jandy in between, water is going though both the heater and the bypass and it seems the pressure is a bit higher.

I am also surprised that you would have HIGHER pressure while the valve cycles from one zone to the other. Perhaps the A&A behaves differently than my Caretaker, which DROPs 5-6psi while transitioning between zones. Has the valve been cleaned or rebuilt at some point? Is there a little screen filter before the valve?

Doesn't it make sense there would be a pressure build up if no popups are open? I think one zone closes before the next opens, but I could be wrong.
I didn't take the gears out, but those looked nice and clean. What little screen filter are you talking about? Where would it be located?

Pulling out and checking all the pop-ups is another good step. In addition to inspecting for debris, hand actuate each one to test for smooth operation, both up/down and rotationally. Another level of detail is to consider the synchronization of the pop-ups in each zone. One downside of running the floor system on a VSP is that the pop-ups can get out of sync if you send water through them at low rpms and they don't pop up all the way. Then they are all spraying random directions.

Good info. Another reason for maybe getting some automatic valve actuators. I have the possibility with the current setup to bypass the cleaners completely while running on low and either using the water for therapies to create circulation in the pool or waterfalls.

 

[Dodger]

Doesn't it make sense there would be a pressure build up if no popups are open? I think one zone closes before the next opens, but I could be wrong.
I didn't take the gears out, but those looked nice and clean. What little screen filter are you talking about? Where would it be located?.

I think during the transition from one zone to the next, the flow is going to both the zones. If flow stopped altogether, it could be a deadhead situation on the pump.

It may be that the A&A doesn't have a filter screen. My Caretaker has a little dome screen that sits in the union at the top inlet of the valve dome. Just need to inspect/clean this a couple times per year to make sure that it not affecting pressure.

When cleaning 2850RPM and 16 PSI Filter Pressure


Problem is I like to have it flowing, but I guess I could buy some automatic valve actuators and shut it down during my cleaning cycle.


Good info. Another reason for maybe getting some automatic valve actuators. I have the possibility with the current setup to bypass the cleaners completely while running on low and either using the water for therapies to create circulation in the pool or waterfalls.

Your system sounds similar to mine in terms of the rpm/filter pressure relationship. I used to run cleaning at 3350rpm with 25-26psi on the filter. But that makes me nervous, so now my max is set at 3000rpm and about 20-22psi at the filter. My problem is the head loss by the time it gets to the Caretaker valve so I only have 12psi on some zones. I have been thinking of plumbing a heater bypass to reduce head loss, and that's why your report on that is discouraging for me.

Regarding the waterfall, I would just do some pressure tests with and without it on to see if it's appreciable. If yes, then I would put in a valve actuator for the waterfall.

I just recently installed an actuator on my manual cleaner bypass which allows me more options. Any programs that open that valve are tied to increased pump speed to make sure the valve gears operate properly.

 

[runboy]

Dodger,

Sorry for the confusion.

Forget everything I said Must have been past my bedtime. I just rechecked my system and the findings are:

1. The drop in pressure is between cycles when 2 zones are active. So I have 16 psi when one zone is active.
2. Bypassing the Heater gives me an increase of 2 psi (14 to 16). The intermediate position gives the same.
3. Taking the waterfall completely out of the loop only ads 1 psi. I only let a little water to the waterfall and all the piping is 2" except for the cleaner which is 1.5", so I have a theory that letting a little water (The waterfall) bypass the cleaner is a good thing.

I feel the way the previous owner had the pump etc. plumbed is hurting my efficiency. Not a complete straight run on the intake side and a 90 degree elbow right after the outlet. But on the other hand its probably hard to avoid.

 

[Dodger]

run,

I see that the pressure gauge is not in the dome, but maybe a foot above it. That's pretty amazing if you are getting 16psi there and 16psi at your filter. So, zero head loss!?! Or is the 16psi at the filter (post #10) only when transitioning between zones and then it tracks higher when the individual zone reaches 16psi?

At any rate, it's good news if you are getting 16psi above the dome for each individual zone. I would run it like that and maybe work on little tweaks. If you have dead spots, see if that extra 1psi from shutting off the waterfall helps. See if cleaning and syncing the pop-ups helps. See if extending the clean time helps.

 

[runboy]

run,

I see that the pressure gauge is not in the dome, but maybe a foot above it. That's pretty amazing if you are getting 16psi there and 16psi at your filter. So, zero head loss!?! Or is the 16psi at the filter (post #10) only when transitioning between zones and then it tracks higher when the individual zone reaches 16psi?

At any rate, it's good news if you are getting 16psi above the dome for each individual zone. I would run it like that and maybe work on little tweaks. If you have dead spots, see if that extra 1psi from shutting off the waterfall helps. See if cleaning and syncing the pop-ups helps. See if extending the clean time helps.

The 16 PSI is at the cleaner. I double checked and the pressure at the filter is more like 17.5. I just backwashed my filter yesterday. Pressure at the filter was about 22 before I backwashed.

 

[Dodger]

I seem to get the most pressure if I place the bypass valve right between the two.

I have been thinking of plumbing a heater bypass to reduce head loss, and that's why your report on that is discouraging for me.

Runboy, I wanted to add to the discussion regarding heater bypass and how that affected pressure in my system. Your more complicated return lines make it hard to compare apples to apples at the detail level, but I think the top level behavior may be the same.

I was surprised to find that my newly plumbed heater bypass has almost the same effect on in-floor pressure whether the heater is fully bypassed or "50%" bypassed (not 50% flow, but the valve at the physical 50% spot between heater and bypass). I thought the pressure increase at the in-floor manifold would be more obvious with zero flow to the heater, but that is not the case.

So, it appears that just having a parallel path with lower resistance than the heater improves the pressure at the in-floor manifold.

 

[jonpcar]

I was surprised to find that my newly plumbed heater bypass has almost the same effect on in-floor pressure whether the heater is fully bypassed or "50%" bypassed (not 50% flow, but the valve at the physical 50% spot between heater and bypass). I thought the pressure increase at the in-floor manifold would be more obvious with zero flow to the heater, but that is not the case.

Based on those experiments in the other thread (1/2 click Jandy), I am not surprised that a valve at the halfway point is essentially a "pass through" for PSIs and GPMs that we are operating our in-floor cleaning systems with.

 

[runboy]

Dodger and jonpcar

Aren't we talking about two different kinds of Bypass here (Last two posts)? In my case and I'm guessing also in Dodgers case we are just talking about bypassing the Heater, not the In floor Valve.
I two am surprised Dodger and I don't see the biggest pressure with a full bypass of the Heater. When the Jandy is in the 45 degree position it blocks half the pipe, but as Dodger points out, not necessarily half the flow. If it did block half the flow you should definitely see a higher pressure at the in floor cleaner with a 100% bypass. But even if the resistance in the Heater path is obviously not doubled by restricting the hole to half size, you would still think there would be a significant increase by going full bypass vs 50/50.

 

[Dodger]

Aren't we talking about two different kinds of Bypass here (Last two posts)? In my case and I'm guessing also in Dodgers case we are just talking about bypassing the Heater, not the In floor Valve.

runboy, thanks for your comments. I agree, but had hesitated to respond before you did since it is your thread.

These are 2 different kinds of bypass. I believe the effect on pressure and flow is very different for the heater bypass than for the in-floor bypass.

In the heater bypass case, both paths have large downstream resistance (heater and in-floor manifold).
For the in-floor bypass, one of the downstream paths is low resistance wall returns.

 

[jonpcar]

Sorry to confuse the discussion, I realized that these are two different bypasses. My comment was meant to be interpreted as it doesn’t surprise me that a “half open valve” in dodger’s case acts almost identically to a “fully open valve (heater fully bypassed)”

 

[Dodger]

1. It says in the manual: "If your pool is equipped with a heater or salt chlorinator, make sure theheater bypass valve is adjusted properly and is not completely closed." Right now I am just running everything through my water heater and nothing through the bypass. So how much should I run through the bypass?

It seems like we answered this question showing that sending some water through a heater bypass will help increase the in-floor manifold pressure, and that it's not necessary to completely close off the heater.

The flip side of this question is where that valve position can/should be for the heater to work best.