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Thread: closing, help quickly please

  1. Back To Top    #1

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    closing, help quickly please

    Trying to close. Major repair of multiport & DE tank needed, probably need new of both, PVC cracked bigtime & not repairable.

    I am ready to lower water level, all prior steps done properly
    I can lower water with the elect pump, no problem. Just slower
    Go ahead & lower & fix all the pump area next spring, right?

    I am done with the pump area until then.

    Thanks
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

  2. Back To Top    #2

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    photos here to get on the site, I'll inquire later once my closing is done
    Attached Images Attached Images
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

  3. Back To Top    #3
    spishex's Avatar
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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    Looks like you can use the pump in waste or recirculate without any problem if you have to drain or circulate the water.

    What's the issue with the DE tank itself? If you get the right MPV you can still use the old filter housing.

  4. Back To Top    #4

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    I'd just wait til spring to do the repairs (of course, do a little research and price comparing over the winter - you might be able to get some off season deals )

    Hope you'll stop by from time to time over the winter! If not, enjoy your winter and we'll see you here next spring
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

  5. Back To Top    #5

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    Thanks guys.
    The pool is closed. I just lowered with the electric pump.
    I’ll definitely be here this winter. I have much to learn & now I need help with this issue.

    The DE tank issue:
    - is old/original, since 1992 so 17 yrs old
    - has some corrosion issue that doesn’t seem to cause any problems,
    - has a pinhole leak that I have just let go all season or two & that hasn’t concerned me, - - the rims where the upper & lower halves meet are bent & alto the gasket seals I wait for failure,
    - I dislike that reassembly hammer tapping as you tighten- awkward & not that easy, always cut myself doing it, etc- is there any easier DE filter set-up?
    - I have a gut feeling I’ll be replacing it before long so why not now (no I don’t want to spend the money but my gut feeling). And darn it, the DE grids are new last year & I care for them properly so another reason to stay with the old DE tank.

    Furthermore, I need 3 or 4 new NeverLube Jandy’s. Also the PVC is all old- UV baked it for 15 years before I took over; is reasonable to replace all that above the ground PVC too- do you guys ever do that or am I a bit ignorant ? I’ll call a pro for the MPV install so why not have him do these other items too. A whole new pump area except:
    - the motor is new,
    - the waste tank & waste plumbing is fine
    - the cleaner/Polaris canister & filte rare fine/new (but same old UV-baked PVC related to it)

    I’ll post another photo showing how close the wall is to the DE tank which may limit plumbing one day if done in pieces rather than a “whole new setup”- I just don’t know, I’m not a pro.

    Do DE tanks come with a PRV /pressure release valve like a hot water heated if the pressure exceeds the maximum? Yes I operate the manual one on top to release the air. I did that & it still blew causing the PVC crack at the MPV you see in my above post. A Jandy failed or I installed a Jandy wrong that caused all this. I was simply trying to try out my new PoolSkim & had to swap Jandys because the one I’ll dedicate for the PoolSkim had a broken handle). It’s all a very sad story. I don’t feel sorry for myself but man I am upset.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

  6. Back To Top    #6

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    I would recommend replacing the filter. Today's new residential pool filters are no longer made using stainless, No sharp edges to cut you.

    The suction side plumbing looks OK. I am surprised there aren't any flush unions on there. If the grease caps on the valves are empty, get new ones.

    When replacing the filter, the plumbing after the pump exhaust can go. Saving the DE tank is fine. Make sure it's attached to the bonding wire.

    WRT to the pressure relief question, the pump will cavitate before the filter gets to 50PSI. Pressure relief valves on a heater are to relieve steam.

    HTH

    Scott
    PoolGuyNJ
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  7. Back To Top    #7

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    I am ready to begin this project. I'll have a pro do it.
    I want to have the pro out to:
    - see it, so he knows just what I need & want
    -tell me the parts I need
    - verify w him that it is ok for me to order all the parts (guys, is this appropriate? He seems reasonable to me, I've had him out before. Or do they really dislike not getting the parts themselves- markup etc?).

    We open the pool in March, so I want it done by then.

    Any comments appreciated.
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

  8. Back To Top    #8

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    If I didn't sell it, my labor charges go up substantially to install it. Who is going to support you during the warranty period? The web server that you clicked buy now? The web master? If I installed it, you're expecting me to support you too. My work is almost always warranted for 1 year P&L. If the owner supplied part has an issue and it caused the failure (things daisy chain sometimes), my time and parts are all on you.

    Many techs won't touch it if they didn't sell it. The web is great for the DIYer. The delta in cost isn't that great and the relationship with the pool pro is important to both of you. To do otherwise is like being penny wise and dollar foolish (in the UK its pound foolish, in the EU countries its Euro-Dollar Foolish... )

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    To do otherwise is like being penny wise and dollar foolish (in the UK its pound foolish, in the EU countries its Euro-Dollar Foolish... )


    I don't have any problem with a customer procuring the equipment I'm going to install (my boss probably has an attitude closer to Scott's - however, there's no extra charge, it's straight 'time and materials') I had never thought about warranty issues but it is something to consider.

    Get your pool dude out there to check the system out and see what he can do price wise, if the difference in what he can do v.s. what you can get on-line is negligible, you're probably better off letting him supply the new equipment

    Please let us know what the pool dude says, we're with you all the way
    Luv& Luk
    -Ted

    Having done construction and service for 4 pool companies in 4 states starting in 1988, what I know about pools could fill a couple of books - what I don't know could fill a couple of libraries :-D

    POOL SCHOOL, TF Testkits, Jason's Pool Calculator, CYA vs. cl chart, (Just a few DARNED handy links!)

  10. Back To Top    #10

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    I’m glad I asked. If a leak from faulty labor, I’d have him fix it. If a faulty part I bought I’d send it back & pay the labor.
    I’ll ask him how he wants to do it & go with that. I agree the relationship with the pool pro is important to both of us.
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

  11. Back To Top    #11

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    The pro was out.
    All that is needed is:
    - a new MPV
    - a new filter (filter kind of by my urging).
    He advised sand filter but gave the options. I researched the options a bit here on TFP before posting this.
    I think I'll go w a sand filter- but all comments appreciated.
    I don't care about clarity in a night/lighted pool. I dislike the cleaning of my current DE filter.

    He said new sand needed every 5 yrs +/-. True? I’ll read up on TFP how to care for it.
    I see on TFP that guys add ½ lb of DE, that is still sound, right? For my pool size?

    He said the MPV may be on top of the filter (or perhaps I misunderstand, maybe just the backwash/maintenance handle?)

    Quoted $685 for P&L & sand & everything. Reasonable?

    I need to be sure the filter size is proper, right? So I ask him “how many SF?”?

    What else do I need to clarify with the guy?

    Thanks
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

  12. Back To Top    #12
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    The correct procedure for adding DE to a sand filter is listed at Pool School.

    Sand filters are usually sized based on their diameter, though the number of pounds of sand the filter holds is sometimes used.

    There is a debate about replacing sand. Some people replace their sand every 5 to 7 years, while others never replace their sand. Sand gets less "sharp" over time, somewhat reducing it's filtering ability. But it remains acceptable to some people even when very worn out, especially if you are using the add DE trick.

    Some filters are sold with the MPV included, others require a separate valve. The total price is about the same either way.

    The price you were quoted might be good or bad depending on which specific filter is going to be installed. There is a fairly large price range from the low end to the high end of filters.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  13. Back To Top    #13

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    Additional things to think about:

    How much space is available for the tank. If you have 2" plumbing, anything 350 lbs (26" Pentair Sand Dollar) is 1.5" plumbing inside the filter. This kills the potential benefit of having 2" plumbing. That brings you to a 500 lb sand filter with a 30" tank or more. Can the pad support it's weight and is there enough room for it?

    I almost never change sand without a very good reason. I do suck off an inch or two off the top and refill my own every 4-5 years. The main body of the sand bed is always clean.

    DE filters tend to get taller when going up in size as opposed to sand filters, which get fatter.

    DE filters need to be disassembled and cleaned/soaked periodically. It's not hard, just a PITA.

    Cartridge filters suffer the same PITA job requirements as DE filter.

    Initial Costs: DE Most, Sand Middle, Cartridge Least

    Typical recurring cost order DE Most (DE or DE substitute and replacement parts) Cartridge (Filter Cartridges) Sand

    Ease of Use: Cartridge (simplest except for the PITA chore), Sand, DE(Tied with Sand Except for the PITA Chore)

    Water Clarity DE Best Sand (Some premium medias claim better filtering than plain filter sand), Cartridge

    The claims of alternative sand medias of being able to filter as small a particle as a DE filter may be true but they cost substantially more and in 99.95% of the pools I have serviced, no one could tell the difference.

    In your case, a 350 Lb 26" Pentair Sand Dollar will do the job just fine. You may need a couple flat patio blocks to extend the equipment pad as the base of a sand filter is significantly larger. It comes with the MPV. The Sta-Rite Cristal-Flo is the same filter except for the name and the color.

    Don't go with a Hayward S244T 300 lb sand filter. The center pipe inside has a history of collapsing because the walls are thin. The Pentair uses Schedule 40 pressure rated pipe which is significantly stronger and won't collapse. If it did, it's easily repairable. I have never heard of it happening but I am sure someone has won the unlucky lottery there once by doing something silly.

    HTH

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  14. Back To Top    #14
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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyb
    I think I'll go w a sand filter- but all comments appreciated.
    I can only say that I l-o-v-e my sand filter.
    It is old and works like a horse and I could not be happier with the ease of maintenance.
    If it is ever replaced, it will be with another sand filter


    I don't care about clarity in a night/lighted pool
    Me neither!
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  15. Back To Top    #15

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    Great help as usual.

    My source (Amerimerc) seems to be in the $300 range for the one pump PoolGuyNJ mentioned:
    http://www.amerimerc.com/Inground-Sand- ... AL-FLO.htm

    My quote of $685? Not looking too good. I’ll call & get the specific pump he wants & let you know. Perhaps I’m missing something.

    Where do you guys buy filters from? I can google the filters but you guyknow this stuff already & have been through it.

    Everyone agrees with the recommendation PoolGuyNJ made, a 350 Lb 26" Pentair Sand Dollar or the Sta-Rite Cristal-Flo (same filter except for the name and the color)?

    What is a reasonable price of these 2 filters, I can get the plumbing way cheaper than $300? Perhaps I’m missing something?

    I have on hand some Fiber Clear instead of DE, it is a DE alternative, I used it for years in the DE filter; it should be ok, right

    Thanks
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

  16. Back To Top    #16

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    I spoke w the pro, he said "a Pentair or Hayward". I said I heard some negative about Haywards & he said it was probably from improper handling.
    I’ll call him back & tell him I want the Pentair- sound good to you guys?

    Do I need to ask what model? He knows my pool water volume.

    Any comments on my post above this post also appreciated.
    Sounds like a 4 hour job & a follow up verify the cure visit.

    Thanks
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

  17. Back To Top    #17
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    It is nearly always better to get a larger filter than you really need. Oversized filters will be more efficient and don't need to be cleaned as often.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    Thanks Jason. I did read that in Pool School.
    I see that the 350 Lb 26" Pentair Sand Dollar is the largest they have so I’ll specify that I want that. Here is the link to Pentair’s sand filters:
    http://www.pentairpool.com/subsections/ ... and-25.htm
    They have the traditional SDollar, and a newer model with “with patented ClearPro Technology®” “
    I called the mfg, they said it relates to “the lateral flow of the water so less backwashing”. I’d like to avoid being the guy who buys the new technology that turns out to be crummy. If anyone has any experience with either model please let me know.
    Newest model:
    http://www.pentairpool.com/products/fil ... gy-207.htm
    Older model:
    http://www.pentairpool.com/products/fil ... er-149.htm

    Thank you.
    19,800 gallons (closed/winter 18,654 gal); plaster; 18x34 Ft kidney bean shape, Depth 3Ft-5Ft. Built 1992
    Pentair Whisper Flow Pump 1HP. Winter safety cover w anchors.
    Sand filter, Pentair Sand Dollar Top Mount Model SD80; Effective Filtration Area 3.5SF
    - FlowRate 75GPM, 8Hr 36,000, 10Hr 45,000, 12Hr 54,000; Pressure Weight 50PSI
    BBB (Hayward Chlorinator when leave town). Polaris 360 cleaner.

  19. Back To Top    #19
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    ClearPro is supposed to allow sand filters to filter out very small particles. They claim that a ClearPro filter will filter as well as a DE filter. I have yet to hear from anyone who actually has one. Nothing at their web site suggests that there will be less backwashing. If anything, more backwashing seems likely (since it catches more stuff), though that is just a guess.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  20. Back To Top    #20

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    Re: closing, help quickly please

    The Clear Pro is a solid looking yet porous lateral set. It is available with the Sand Dollar, Tagleus and TritonII sand filters.

    Here's the link for a Sand Dollar PDF:

    http://www.pentairpool.com/products/pro ... php?id=149

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

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