I have a 20k gallon pebble tec salt water pool. I have a suction side pool vacuum. There is a valve where I can select 100% suction to go through the skimmer and 0% through vac, or visa versa or anywhere in between (i.e. 80% skimmer 20% vac...). My question is, how often should I be running the pool vac versus the skimmer? Should I figure out the optimal setting for the vac, then just set it and forget it. Meaning for instance if the optimal setting for the vac is to run it 50% skimmer 50% vac, then just set it in the middle and leave it there so every night the filter runs it also runs the vac. Or should I run it 100% skimmer some of the time and 50% vac/skimmer some of the time? The trade off is the vac increases the pressure in the system and it doesn't run as effectively as when I am just running the skimmer.
Skimmer versus Vacuum run time
- Thread starter jeremyjohnolson
- Start date
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,857
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I worked through all that when I had a manual three-way valve balancing between skimmer and vac. I never could get the balance right, so I couldn't run the vac all the time. With both running, I couldn't get good performance out of either. So I added an actuator and use my automation to switch modes and ramp up my VS pump to optimize each function.
Run times and RPMs come down to how they work in your particular pool. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules. There will be a set RPM to optimize the vacuum, if you have a VS pump. Mine came with a gauge that attaches to the hose to determine if the amount of suction is correct. You can adjust that suction using RPMs, the valve(s), or a gizmo that sometimes comes with the vacuum that sets the flow (mine didn't come with that, but I think it gets installed between the hose and the vacuum port). Other than setting vac flow correctly, the rest is based on what your pool needs. Leaves on the bottom, more vac time. Leaves on the surface, more skimmer time (or higher RPMs), etc. You just have to keep adjusting until your pool is as clean as is acceptable to you, within the limit of what you're willing to spend (pump time + RPMs = electric bill).
But the real reason I'm chiming in: don't forget that the vacuum port and the end of the vacuum hose, under certain conditions, can be exposed suction, which can be dangerous. The vacuum port needs to have a proper safety flap. And while the vacuum head is some protection for the end of the hose, those hoses come apart relatively easily, which could make dangerous suction exposed to an inquisitive person. Evisceration does happen in pools, along with entrapment. So...
You should never set the valve(s) to 100% suction for the vacuum. The skimmer port is less of an issue, because it is well protected inside the skimmer, under the basket. But the vacuum port, and the end of the vacuum hose, is very much "in your pool." I'm still working this out, but my logic about it is: adjust the valve that controls the balance such that it can never be turned to 100% suction to the vac. By allowing some amount of the suction to come from both the skimmer and the vac, if the vac port or hose gets exposed to a person, then the suction against the skin is relieved through the skimmer port. I'm still working out what a safe balance is, 10-90, 20-80, 40-60? I honestly don't know, and don't know how to determine that. I'm going to lock down my actuator to some split that still allows the vac to function well, but diverts as much suction as possible to the skimmer. The closer to 50-50 the better, I think.
Once I figure out a good split, I'm going to hold something up to the vac port (NOT MY HAND! At least not a first.) and see what happens. Not sure what to use. A rubber ball? A piece of fruit? Dunno. Something that would simulate a kid's belly, frankly. That, after all, is what you're safeguarding...
The other safeguard I employ is to run the vac mode only in the middle of the night, when nobody is in the pool. During the day, suction at the vac port is always 0%.
Run times and RPMs come down to how they work in your particular pool. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules. There will be a set RPM to optimize the vacuum, if you have a VS pump. Mine came with a gauge that attaches to the hose to determine if the amount of suction is correct. You can adjust that suction using RPMs, the valve(s), or a gizmo that sometimes comes with the vacuum that sets the flow (mine didn't come with that, but I think it gets installed between the hose and the vacuum port). Other than setting vac flow correctly, the rest is based on what your pool needs. Leaves on the bottom, more vac time. Leaves on the surface, more skimmer time (or higher RPMs), etc. You just have to keep adjusting until your pool is as clean as is acceptable to you, within the limit of what you're willing to spend (pump time + RPMs = electric bill).
But the real reason I'm chiming in: don't forget that the vacuum port and the end of the vacuum hose, under certain conditions, can be exposed suction, which can be dangerous. The vacuum port needs to have a proper safety flap. And while the vacuum head is some protection for the end of the hose, those hoses come apart relatively easily, which could make dangerous suction exposed to an inquisitive person. Evisceration does happen in pools, along with entrapment. So...
You should never set the valve(s) to 100% suction for the vacuum. The skimmer port is less of an issue, because it is well protected inside the skimmer, under the basket. But the vacuum port, and the end of the vacuum hose, is very much "in your pool." I'm still working this out, but my logic about it is: adjust the valve that controls the balance such that it can never be turned to 100% suction to the vac. By allowing some amount of the suction to come from both the skimmer and the vac, if the vac port or hose gets exposed to a person, then the suction against the skin is relieved through the skimmer port. I'm still working out what a safe balance is, 10-90, 20-80, 40-60? I honestly don't know, and don't know how to determine that. I'm going to lock down my actuator to some split that still allows the vac to function well, but diverts as much suction as possible to the skimmer. The closer to 50-50 the better, I think.
Once I figure out a good split, I'm going to hold something up to the vac port (NOT MY HAND! At least not a first.) and see what happens. Not sure what to use. A rubber ball? A piece of fruit? Dunno. Something that would simulate a kid's belly, frankly. That, after all, is what you're safeguarding...
The other safeguard I employ is to run the vac mode only in the middle of the night, when nobody is in the pool. During the day, suction at the vac port is always 0%.
Jeremy,
That is just the downside to using a 1960's technology to clean your pool...
If you can run 50/50 and your skimming is good enough than it makes sense to just set it and forget it.
Other than manually tuning the valve each day, the only other option is to automate the valve so that you can change the percentage with some simple type of automation. You could kluge something together that could run the valve and pump in the "Skimmer" position for x hours and the "vacuum" position for another y hours...
Thanks for posting,
Jim R.
That is just the downside to using a 1960's technology to clean your pool...
If you can run 50/50 and your skimming is good enough than it makes sense to just set it and forget it.
Other than manually tuning the valve each day, the only other option is to automate the valve so that you can change the percentage with some simple type of automation. You could kluge something together that could run the valve and pump in the "Skimmer" position for x hours and the "vacuum" position for another y hours...
Thanks for posting,
Jim R.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,857
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Well, technically I'm 1950s technology, so compared to my body, my suction-side Rebel is "futuristic!"
That's a good point. Thank you for pointing that out. I know I said in my original post "100% vac..." but in reality, I never run it 100% vac because my pump is too powerful and on the normal high speed setting which I use to run the vacuum & skimmer together, if I put it on 100% vac it starts cavitating. Also, I always only run it at night.
You answered my question more than you know. The reason I wanted to know if I can set it and forget it, or if I need to alternate between skimmer and skimmer+vac is because I am trying to decide if I should get an actuator or not installed on my 3-way valve. I am in the process right now of installing Hayward Omnilogic automation and was wondering if it made sense to automate that manual valve. Sounds like your experience says yes, I should automate it and then figure out how much I need to run each setting.
You answered my question more than you know. The reason I wanted to know if I can set it and forget it, or if I need to alternate between skimmer and skimmer+vac is because I am trying to decide if I should get an actuator or not installed on my 3-way valve. I am in the process right now of installing Hayward Omnilogic automation and was wondering if it made sense to automate that manual valve. Sounds like your experience says yes, I should automate it and then figure out how much I need to run each setting.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,857
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Hey Jimrahbe, thanks for your reply. I am interested what part of my technology is outdated, are you saying because I am using a suction vac hooked up to the pump and I should get a robot instead? I was considering getting a robot, but decided against it because of the price and because I don't like the idea of having to take it in and out of the pool whenever I run it. I would rather automate cleaning as much as possible. On the other hand, I think a robot, while not totally eliminating, would at least cut down drastically on the amount of brushing I would have to do. But when I weigh the inconvenience of having to take the robot in and out ever day/every other day/however often I run it, versus brushing say 1x a week, I think I would rather brush once week on Saturday.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,857
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
If you're automation isn't a piece of junk like my "lite" version of Pentair ET, you'll have access to more than four schedules. Which means you can do things like:
- schedule vacuuming at 4:30am
- schedule skimming during the day at low speed
- schedule one or two or three "high-speed" skimming sessions throughout the day, to polish the surface of leaves and pollen, etc. 20, 30 minutes each, to really get that water moving and skimmer sucking.
If you have a VS pump, too, then you can really dial all this in to maximize cleaning and minimize energy consumption.
Or, as Jim was teasing us with, you can switch to a robot vacuum, for better cleaning, and seal off the vacuum port for 100% safety. I won't re-list my cons about robots. My Rebel works for me and I'm not yet ready to "upgrade" to robot.
When the robots can run cordless, and crawl out of the pool and park themselves in a little robot charging garage, all on their own, then I'm in!
- schedule vacuuming at 4:30am
- schedule skimming during the day at low speed
- schedule one or two or three "high-speed" skimming sessions throughout the day, to polish the surface of leaves and pollen, etc. 20, 30 minutes each, to really get that water moving and skimmer sucking.
If you have a VS pump, too, then you can really dial all this in to maximize cleaning and minimize energy consumption.
Or, as Jim was teasing us with, you can switch to a robot vacuum, for better cleaning, and seal off the vacuum port for 100% safety. I won't re-list my cons about robots. My Rebel works for me and I'm not yet ready to "upgrade" to robot.
When the robots can run cordless, and crawl out of the pool and park themselves in a little robot charging garage, all on their own, then I'm in!
any automatic valve recommendations (maybe I should start a new thread)? I have Hayward Omnilogic, but I think the valves are universal. Are there any valves out there that you can control what percentage it is open versus closed on either side or are they all just on(skimmer side)-off-on(vac side)?
- - - Updated - - -
Yep, that's pretty much how I feel too. Unless someone can sell me on it otherwise, it seems for me that the scales are tipping a little too much toward the extra work side of things that the robot would make versus the time savings it would generate.
- - - Updated - - -
Yep, that's pretty much how I feel too. Unless someone can sell me on it otherwise, it seems for me that the scales are tipping a little too much toward the extra work side of things that the robot would make versus the time savings it would generate.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,857
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Just outside of my knowledge-base. My understanding, and what I've yet to do, is you take apart the actuator and adjust them internally to set their stop points at each position: 100-100, 20-40, whatever. You only get two stops, so you can't get 20%-80%, 50%-50% and 70%-30% out of the same actuator. But you can set the stops to get 0vac-100skim in one mode, and then 70vac-30skim in the other, or whatever you need.
Jim's the man for that know-how... And there are YouTube videos describing the process. As to Hayward compatibility, dunno. Jim and I are all Pentair. But if the actuators are not universal, there will surely be a Hayward compatible actuator that can do what I describe...
Do you mean there is a valve that can be controlled how much percentage it is on one side versus the other, or do they all only have two stops?
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,857
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Jim and I are talking about manually, one time, setting the stops to the desired percentages of flow, for each of the two modes of the valve/actuator (there are two), then using automation to switch between the two. Not automation to variably control the percentage on the fly, if that's what you meant.
And the valve balances the percentages through each port, for a total of 100%. The actuator or automation doesn't change that. You can't get 20 out of one side while getting 30 out of the other side, if that's what you meant. If you set the stop to achieve 70% suction from the vac port, you're going to get 30% from the skimmer.
google search turned up this. I just don't know if it can be controlled with Hayward Omnilogic or not.
Pentair 521485 IntelliValve Pool & Spa Valve Actuator
Pentair 521485 IntelliValve Pool & Spa Valve Actuator
never mind, after further reading, it only has two stops as well. Difference is you can program it digitally versus manually changing the settings. Seems like a valve like this should be able to be remotely controlled at any one of the valve settings, I suppose the valve probably could be, but the automation hardware might be the limiting factor.
Jermey
The idea that you have to take a Robot out of the pool after every use is just not valid. Most new robots have a timer so that it can run itself on a schedule x times a week. In the summer, I only put my Robot in the pool when I want to clean it, and take it out when done or the next day, but only because I don't like see trash, even expensive trash, in my pool... In the winter, I'm not as picky...
I also have two very old dolphin Robots at rent houses that never come out of the pool except when I clean them about once a week.. They have been under water for the most part of the past five years. Coincidently, one of them died last week because where the cable goes into the motor got corroded and broke.. But, I bought that Robot used and it is 12 to 15 years old, so I really can't complain.
Robots just do a better job of cleaning. But.. I really like the idea of them driving themselves into a little garage...
All Jandy style valve actuators are the same.. They all operate off of 24 VAC and have a small three pin connector that just plugs into almost any automation system. None of them have the ability to electronically select various open percentages... If you want less than full open or closed you just need to mechanically adjust them internally..
** Jandy does have an electronic valve but you have to have special card to get it to work and so far no one that I know of has gotten it to work..
Thanks for posting,
Jim R.
The idea that you have to take a Robot out of the pool after every use is just not valid. Most new robots have a timer so that it can run itself on a schedule x times a week. In the summer, I only put my Robot in the pool when I want to clean it, and take it out when done or the next day, but only because I don't like see trash, even expensive trash, in my pool...
In the winter, I'm not as picky... I also have two very old dolphin Robots at rent houses that never come out of the pool except when I clean them about once a week.. They have been under water for the most part of the past five years. Coincidently, one of them died last week because where the cable goes into the motor got corroded and broke.. But, I bought that Robot used and it is 12 to 15 years old, so I really can't complain.
Robots just do a better job of cleaning. But.. I really like the idea of them driving themselves into a little garage...
All Jandy style valve actuators are the same.. They all operate off of 24 VAC and have a small three pin connector that just plugs into almost any automation system. None of them have the ability to electronically select various open percentages... If you want less than full open or closed you just need to mechanically adjust them internally..
** Jandy does have an electronic valve but you have to have special card to get it to work and so far no one that I know of has gotten it to work..
Thanks for posting,
Jim R.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,857
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Cool gizmo. I don't have time to read all the docs. At first glance, I'd say this thing just puts the adjustment of the stops into the hands of a digital device. You still only get two positions once adjusted, you just don't have to take it apart to do so, which means it would be significantly easier to set up. But once you do so, you're still just flipping back and forth between the two stops.
If my guess about that is right, it's great for set up, but once you get it dialed in, its value decreases. And now you have yet another electronic device with pool water running through it!
I've never read about automation that could change that device's settings remotely, nor any that could be scheduled to change the setting to more than two stops. (Which doesn't mean that capability doesn't exist, just that I've never read about it!) But if I'm wrong about that, it would certainly be cool. Still overkill for what you're needing to do, though, which is to run one stop wide open (for 100% skimming) and run the other stop at 70-30 (or thereabouts) to give you good vac performance with some suction relief should a person get stuck to the port or hose.
Another quick glance at the manual: there is no mention of connecting this device to a comm port within Pentair automation units, just to the actuator ports, which is just on-off as far as I know. Which indicates the automation doesn't control the stops, just flips between them...
Jermey
The idea that you have to take a Robot out of the pool after every use is just not valid. Most new robots have a timer so that it can run itself on a schedule x times a week. In the summer, I only put my Robot in the pool when I want to clean it, and take it out when done or the next day, but only because I don't like see trash, even expensive trash, in my pool...
Hm, if I don't have to take it in and out of the pool all the time, that might be a game changer. I might start looking into the robots again. I think another "unwritten" reason, if you will, of why I decided against is because I was getting a bit frustrated and overwhelmed by all the options of robots out there! I narrowed it down to a Dolphin, but even then, there are about 10 thousand different models...OK maybe that is a bit of an exaggeration.
Jermey
The idea that you have to take a Robot out of the pool after every use is just not valid. Most new robots have a timer so that it can run itself on a schedule x times a week. In the summer, I only put my Robot in the pool when I want to clean it, and take it out when done or the next day, but only because I don't like see trash, even expensive trash, in my pool...
Jimrahbe,
This is from Dolphin S200's user manual:
- After each cleaning cycle take the Dolphin out of the water to prevent accelerated wear and tear on its plastic parts.
- After each cleaning cycle wash the filter bag or cartridge. Clogged filter bags reduce scanning and cleaning efficiency. Once every two months, wash the filter bag in a washing machine, using a regular synthetic cycle.
Jeremy,
No, I think 10 Thousand sounds about right..
The main downside to Robots is the initial cost... Often those costs are due to features that sound cool, but that are not really needed and hardly ever used. In my case my Robot came with a remote control.. I used it once, maybe twice, when new. It has sat on the shelf ever since. It may have to do with the shape of a pool, but I have yet needed drive the Robot over to a specific area to pick something up...
If I have a dime-sized leaf on my pool floor, anywhere in the pool, once the Robot is done the leaf or bug or whatever is just gone. What you can't do is just stand there a watch..
It will never go pick up something if you watch it. It appears to randomly roam around, but it never seems to miss a spot. I was just poking at you for using a suction side cleaner...
Whatever works for your works for me... Here is a good thread if you are interested... Doheny's Discovery, S200, Active20, Triton owners clubThanks,
Jim R.