16 July 2024 Finishing Up my OB Pool

[setsailsoon]

I suggest you try convincing the plasterers to wait a few hours before filling with water.
If they usually start filling immediately, try to have them wait even 30 minutes. The longer the better up to six hours. High humidity is good for plaster.
Remember, the bottom of the pool is usually done last and needs some time to properly hydrate and harden like the rest of the pool above. Unfortunately, the bottom is first to be submerged in water.
I would like to know how long from start to finish it takes the plasterers to do the job.

They told me they want to wait at least 2 hours. Then they start the dilute acid wash. I'm trying for 3 hours and half whatever acid strength they want to use.

 

[setsailsoon]

Took them 3 1/2 hours to get the main pool and sun deck done. Spa started a little later but is taking about the same amount of time.

 

[setsailsoon]

At the end of the day here's what happened during plaster and initial fill:

• The crew readily agreed to reduce acid to ~25% acid 75% water, Yea! I'm apparently not the only one that has made that request.
• Water looks pretty bad kind of greenish like it has algae already and pretty cloudy.
• When it was about 10-15% I add 1 gal 10% chlorine and a floater with trichlor.
• Finish looks pretty uniform and the gems are barely exposed so far. I think it's going to take quite a bit of scrubbing to fully expose them and/or an acid treatment.
• Only problem I had was I noticed after the spa was about 1/2 full they had hooked the hose up to the house which is after the water softener. So I immediately removed it and replaced it with the irrigation hose. Hopefully it didn't hurt the plaster too much. It was definitely a LOT clearer though.

Thanks for all the last minute suggestions folks! I'll do an analysis in an hour or so.

Chris

 

[setsailsoon]

What a weird day. We had a brush fire swept across a band of woods into our development while we went to get some pool chemicals. Couldn't get back in as the flames were over 20' high on both sides of the road. So we just got back a couple hours ago. Thankfully our fire department teamed up quickly with the forestry department and several sheriffs departments. They even had helicopters dropping water to direct the fire away from houses. It was a pretty close call for homes out closer to the main road and fortunately we had no damage. But it did delay monitoring. Here's the most recent readings after adding a gallon of liquid chlorine.

pH 7.2
FC 8.5
CC 0.5
TA 260
CH 300
CSI .16

Based on previous work with well water samples I expect the pH to rise a lot overnight naturally but thought I'd help it a little with 10# of baking soda. That should bring us up to 7.4 or so. I had previously added about half a bottle of Proteam Metal Magic. No metals detected so just a precaution since metal staining on fresh plaster can be such a problem.

Water seems to be clearing up too. Looks like there's some powder on the bottom but not too bad. Photo's tomorrow when I hope to have enough to start running the filter pump.

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Oh … don’t add any chlorine.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I think startup calls for no chlorine until day 3 … but double check me on that.

 

[setsailsoon]

I think startup calls for no chlorine until day 3 … but double check me on that.

I didn't see anything about that but might have missed it... it's been a long couple of days. Reason I added the FC is we have tannins and 2+ppm H2S in the well so I wanted to try to oxidize it as soon as possible. All I recall about FC is no slam for the first 30 days. It's sort of all over but the crying though so I'll double check the wiki in the morning.

 

[setsailsoon]

01 June 2024 Getting rolling with new plaster

As expected the pH rose to 7.5 so CSI is now .46 back close to the new plaster target of 0.5. Water still has a greenish tint and it's a little cloudy with a lot of fine looking dirt on the bottom. Pool also appears to be about half full which is about what I expected. Well tested at 25 gpm open flow previously and and I was expecting with the filter and sock 20 gpm. We've been filling for about 12 hours so at that rate we should be doing 28,800 gal per day.

Today I'll focus on getting the filter pump running and brushing while keeping pH adjusted. One thing I'm definitely seeing is the payout of swg is now way better than my previous pool. Liquid chlorine used to be $1.35 per gal on sale for bulk. Couldn't find it anywhere less than $5.50. WoW! Similar for acid. Used to be about $11 now it's $18!

Chris

*** Edit *** went back and tested FC and CC. 0 and 0. I'm guessing whatever oxidized easily goes all the way through complete oxidation. Maybe my chelating agent?

 

[setsailsoon]

I didn't see anything about that but might have missed it... it's been a long couple of days. Reason I added the FC is we have tannins and 2+ppm H2S in the well so I wanted to try to oxidize it as soon as possible. All I recall about FC is no slam for the first 30 days. It's sort of all over but the crying though so I'll double check the wiki in the morning.

Matt, After looking again this morning at all the plaster guides in the Wiki, I did see in two of the guides they don't start chlorine addition 'till day 3. This morning my FC is down to zero. Thought about adding but I'm also thinking I may be working against myself. I added phosphate chelating agent and my guess is the FC is consumed by reacting with it... maybe I should wait 'till day 3 to add FC so I keep the chelation protection for at least a couple days? I dosed at about 1/3 normal dosage and will do that again today after you respond.

Chris

 

[ajw22]

Municipal water supplies can have a 1 to 2 ppm chlorine level. That residual chlorine level can keep a pool algae free until chlorine is added in most areas. With all of your water treatment you don’t have that.

You don’t want much chlorine in the pool for the first few days or the 28 day curing period as it can bleach out the color.

I would try and maintain between 1 to 2 ppm of FC for the first 3 days to prevent algae. You really don’t want algae to take hold during the startup.

After 3 days maintain a 3-4 PPM FC level for the 28 days.

You need to walk the fine line between algae free and no bleaching of color with chlorine during the startup curing period.

Although most folks never know if their chlorine during startup bleached their color out a bit.

 

[setsailsoon]

Municipal water supplies can have a 1 to 2 ppm chlorine level. That residual chlorine level can keep a pool algae free until chlorine is added in most areas. With all of your water treatment you don’t have that.

You don’t want much chlorine in the pool for the first few days or the 28 day curing period as it can bleach out the color.

I would try and maintain between 1 to 2 ppm of FC for the first 3 days to prevent algae. You really don’t want algae to take hold during the startup.

After 3 days maintain a 3-4 PPM FC level for the 28 days.

You need to walk the fine line between algae free and no bleaching of color with chlorine during the startup curing period.

Although most folks never know if their chlorine during startup bleached their color out a bit.

Thanks for the reply Allen... what do you think about this versus depleting the chelating agent with FC? Don't show any metals but I'm guessing maybe small amount of metal discoloration on fresh plaster might be worse than algae.

 

[ajw22]

The chelating agent survives with lot higher levels of chlorine. 1-2 ppm should not degrade it much.

 

[setsailsoon]

The chelating agent survives with lot higher levels of chlorine. 1-2 ppm should not degrade it much.

Great to hear. Now I can eat my cake and have it too!

Thanks!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

…Liquid chlorine used to be $1.35 per gal on sale for bulk. Couldn't find it anywhere less than $5.50. WoW! Similar for acid. Used to be about $11 now it's $18!

I used to be able to get a 4-up safety carrier with 1 gallon refillable bottles of acid for around $24 pre-pandemic. Last time (2 weeks ago) I bought acid that same carrier plus 4 gallons cost me ~$52. Same with tabs, DE, CYA … pool chems have gotten crazy expensive.

 

[setsailsoon]

The good news today is the well is performing really well... well pump is pretty old and it's starting to make some noise. I'll send it to the shop next week for rebuild. It's a great Gould pump I've had for years in other services and been really abused a lot on my construction projects. I've got a shop that has real pump pro's that will rebuild for way less than a new one.

Pool water isn't going to get any awards that's for sure but it's day zero and I have a lot of work to do. The greenish tint looks like algae and certainly could be but I'm surprised that it's that bad so quickly. I can't SLAM for at least a month and I actually think it's more likely tannins from our well. I ordered some more Proteam Metal Magic and have it dosed at maintenance level for now just to protect against any staining. Will be interesting to see how brushing later today works and how much acid I need.

Interesting how the fill worked out. After I got rid of the hose that started briefly adding house water (softened which is a big no-no for new pool plaster) I got rid of it and moved the well water hose into the spa to dilute asap with balanced (CSI ~.5) albeit sort of ugly and stinky water. As it filled I noticed the return in the spa was back-flowing into the pool. Makes sense so I just let it fill that way. One thing for sure is the house water after my elaborate treating equipment sure looked a lot better in the spa than the well water that was filling the main pool. Another thing that makes me believe the tint is from the tannins so I'll try to keep some low levels of FC as we go through the next 28 days. Could take a LOT of liquid chlorine though. One thing I noticed this morning is absolutely no sulfur odor. Maybe that's what used all my FC? Robin didn't even mention any odor at all! When the irrigation water runs she always makes some kind of "stinks" remark.

@kimkats do I get a gold star for the sock on the hose? Plaster people liked it a lot since it was easier to deal with than the chunks of sponge they were using..

Chris

 

[ajw22]

Fresh fill water often has that green tint until you get chlorine and other chemicals into it. I would not read anything into the coloring right now.

Plaster takes a lot of abuse during start-up. You are doing better then 95% of the pools we see. Maintain the FC and pH and get 30-40 PPM of CYA in on day 4 and it will turn out great.

 

[setsailsoon]

Fresh fill water often has that green tint until you get chlorine and other chemicals into it. I would not read anything into the coloring right now.

Plaster takes a lot of abuse during start-up. You are doing better then 95% of the pools we see. Maintain the FC and pH and get 30-40 PPM of CYA in on day 4 and it will turn out great.

That's great to hear Allen, thanks for the confidence boost. It was a tough decision to start on my well water but seemed like the best of several worse options for me. Helps a lot to have you, and all the other experts helping! BTY I didn't realize 'till recently you're now "Expert" level. Well deserved and congrats!

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

It takes exceedingly little amounts of tannins to make water have a yellow tint. When you add that yellow/brown color to the natural blue color of water and your plaster, you get green. Once chlorine starts to go to work on it, the tannins will oxidize and breakdown. You will eventually get your sparkly pool water. As @ajw22 stated just hang in there, you’re doing fine. Focus on getting the pumps and filter ready to go. Be prepared for plaster chunks and garbage to get into the strainer basket … it’s amazing what crud can build up in the plumbing. If you have your winterizing tube in place of the SWG I would leave the system that way. Better not to expose the SWG to all the nasty pool water until you’ve gotten it filtered and balanced. Be prepared for lots of filter cleanings as the plaster dust will keep your filter working hard until it subsides.

Also, don’t go to crazy on the sequestering agent. You just need to startup dose and then a few maintenance doses. At very high levels, the sequestering agent can interfere with calcium carbonate formation which you don’t want. The right dose will hold any metals in solution, overdosing will cause other problems.

 

[setsailsoon]

FC still 0 so added another gallon
pH rose a little to 7.5 as expected

Brushing moved the dirt/powder on pool floor easily water is very clear but has the yellow-green tint.

 

[setsailsoon]

It takes exceedingly little amounts of tannins to make water have a yellow tint. When you add that yellow/brown color to the natural blue color of water and your plaster, you get green. Once chlorine starts to go to work on it, the tannins will oxidize and breakdown. You will eventually get your sparkly pool water. As @ajw22 stated just hang in there, you’re doing fine. Focus on getting the pumps and filter ready to go. Be prepared for plaster chunks and garbage to get into the strainer basket … it’s amazing what crud can build up in the plumbing. If you have your winterizing tube in place of the SWG I would leave the system that way. Better not to expose the SWG to all the nasty pool water until you’ve gotten it filtered and balanced. Be prepared for lots of filter cleanings as the plaster dust will keep your filter working hard until it subsides.

Also, don’t go to crazy on the sequestering agent. You just need to startup dose and then a few maintenance doses. At very high levels, the sequestering agent can interfere with calcium carbonate formation which you don’t want. The right dose will hold any metals in solution, overdosing will cause other problems.

Thanks much Matt! Fantastic to be doing this with real experts that have my back! I haven't gotten close to initial dose for Metal Magic about 30% with the material I had on hand which is also several years old. I'll bring it up to initial dose when the rest arrives next week then leave it alone for a couple months. I definitely noticed earlier when I added the liquid chlorine to the spa it cleared the green up a lot. I've read your comments before about blue plus yellow makes green but just couldn't visualize it. Makes sense though. The samples I take have just a slight yellow tinge so that's probably exactly what's going on. Also, I'm pretty relieved there's no apparent staining so far.

Chris