Circupool SWG and solar heat not compatable?

[Wrinkled fingers]

I seem to have found a engineering software defect in Circupools newer RJ series of salt water generator. I have solar heat which drains the roof panels with a vacuum break when the system isn't calling for heat or pump is off. When the solar thermostat calls for heat, and the pump is on, air and water are mixed for about 15 seconds as the roof panels fill. the Circupool RJ system, which is up and running and stable, samples the water for salt, and in 5 seconds, reads low salt (2100ppm) and shuts down with low salt check cell light.
I have been in contact with circupools tech support, they say they have never heard of this. I am reluctant to remove the vacuum break, have heard of piping collapsing from vacuum and heat. Has any one else heard of this issue? Not sure what I am going to do, the old "classic" models of Circupools SWG didn't have this problem. During initial start up, the Circupool ramps up slowly so the issue doesn't present itself, only during stable running. Circupool says they can't alter the software and currently are discussing this internally.

 

[pooldv]

I definitely wouldn't remove the vacuum breaker. What about increasing the salt level to keep it above the low salt warning threshold?

 

[Jimrahbe]

wf,

Help me understand the problem... All the water in your system should have basically the same amount of salt.. so I assume you are saying that when the solar first comes on, the air and saltwater mixture is not measuring the right amount of salt...

Some thoughts... Do you have a solar bypass valve? If so, you could crack it open a little so that the SWCG was always getting some fresh water...

What pump speed are you running the solar? Maybe increasing or decreasing the pump speed might make the problem go away... Or maybe changing the ramp speed of the pump???

A picture of your equipment pad may give us some more ideas...

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[ping]

Something doesn't add up in your post, first you said they have never heard of this problem and then at the end you state they are discussing this problem internally. I wonder which is the real answer from CircuPool. I would think by now we would have seen lots of posts with this issue if it was a system error on their part. For some reason your system might just have an issue with how it is running. This will be interesting to see what the solution will be.

Please post your pump speed when solar kicks on and if the SWG clears itself after a while of running after the panels have primed.

 

[Dirk]

Is this any help?

My solar system only fills and drains once a day, not every thermostat cycle. It fills for the first solar demand, but retains water until the main pump shuts down for the day, regardless of how many times the solar actuator switches throughout the day. So the bubble effect happens only once. It is my understanding that this is the way to run solar.

My SWG only measures for salt once a day, too, at initial power up.

My SWG is scheduled to come on at 7am, solar usually first fires up around 9 or 10am. So even though the bubbles go through the SWG, the SWG has already determined it's salt reading for the day.*

If your SWG is testing throughout the day, that's an issue. But you could (perhaps should?) modify your solar to "bubble" only once a day, and then start your SWG run after that.

* You do bring up a concern (for me). If my SWG is in chlorine-producing mode (plates charged), I wonder it there is any damage being caused by running a bunch of aerated water past them. I'll have to call the manufacturer about that.

 

[Wrinkled fingers]

Yes, the salt is the same, I am assuming the air and water mix makes the salt reading lower due to the way the swg measures salt using conductivity?

I am running 2400 rpm which didn't matter much, still takes about 15 seconds to clear solar panels of all air. I did try increasing pump speed, didn't help. The swg clears itself of air in 15 seconds, the swg sampling of salt during stable running is 5 seconds. On the real time salinity reading mode, i see the readings instantly drop to about 2100 ppm with the air going through and in 5 seconds it shuts down, with low salt and check cell lights on. I added more salt to 4400 ppm for both this problem and the fact the cell reads 800 ppm low, didn't help.

I have talked to Circupool tech both John and Jason several times, they say they are going to discuss with their "guys" and get back to me and had never heard of this before. I have only a electrically activated solar bypass valve, either full on or off. The solar system is Helicoil with their vacuum break. During installation 5 years ago, I questioned the rpm of the pump to get air free water and close the vacuum break, he told me I could remove the vacuum break, that is what they have to do on two story houses to make them work properly, just drain before freezing weather.

I have heard of panel collapse and failure without vacuum breaks but yes I did remove the vacuum break and now it does work but not at all happy about that. There is some air getting sucked back in during shut down so I hope I don't do damage. I am calling Circupool today to see if they have come up with anything.

Dirk says his fill and drains only once a day, do you have a vacuum break??? my system would drain with pump on and vacuum break installed

SWG cell covered by sock to keep temps down and Phoenix sun from killing plastic, it does run cooler than in the sun, same with controller in the "bird house"

 

[Dirk]

Dirk says his fill and drains only once a day, do you have a vacuum break??? my system would drain with pump on and vacuum break installed

Yes, I have a vacuum breaker, though it is not on the roof. It's about 9' off the ground, under the eaves. I put it there so I could get at it, and to keep it out of the sun. They can actually be at the pad, but they have to be a certain height to work properly, I forget that dimension. I just know they don't have to be on the roof.

My solar system is plumbed with one three-way and one check valve. And I also have Heliocol panels. The valve is actuated so that my controller can control when water moves through the panels, based on water temp compared to roof/panel temp. (Standard solar setup.)

The RPM should be set to optimize the heat exchange of the panels, and should not be used to solve some other problem. I dialed in the perfect amount of flow for my panels with a FlowVis flow meter.

My solar's three-way valve is specifically designed for solar. Is yours? It has a special drain-down valve in it, which keeps water in the panels as long as the pump is running. When the pump stops, the drain-down valve opens, and the panels "drain down" into the pool.

I think freezing is the primary reason for draining the panels at night. Another reason is to avoid pumping x-gallons of night-cooled water into your pool every morning.

I have seen pictures of collapsed solar plumbing, but I forget now what causes that. Heliocol panels and the fittings they sell are CPVC (better heat rating). But I used PVC everywhere else. I'm due up on the roof today to adjust my temp sender, I'll report back if I see any PVC deformation. My PVC is black, and UV rated. If I had to guess, I'd say a possible cause of the PVC collapsing would be heating the pipe up all day, without moving the water, then allowing the weight of the water to pull on all that "gooey" PVC when the pump goes off, with no breaker to allow air in to relieve the vacuum force (hence: "vacuum breaker"). Just guessing there. I don't know what two-stories has to do with it. My house is only one story. But if removing the breaker is required to get a solar system to function, I'd take a look at the hydraulic design before I removed the breaker...

 

[Wrinkled fingers]

my three way is a jandy, Helicoil installed it so not sure about designed for solar or what might be the difference. I don't understand the drain down valve in a three way jandy. The water drains off mine in the down line which has only a check valve to stop in the reverse direction with solar off, which I recently rebuilt so it works good.

I called Circupool, they don't have a clue, say they have never seen a Circupool swg installed with a roof mounted solar because they are in Texas!!! Said if they trouble shoot anyone from Phoenix will know what to look for! Told me to let them know what I figure out... They also told me they use the SAME SOFTWARE as Hayward! Anyway, the vacuum break is off and the system now works, will let everyone know if it collapses.

 

[Dirk]

Not sure what to advise beyond what I did. I just know that water stays in my panels until the pump turns off, regardless of temp or controller demanding solar. If you could get your system to do that, then you wouldn't have bubbles going through your SWG multiple times a day. Just because "Helicoil installed it" does not mean it's a drain down valve. My supplier almost sold me the wrong one, I just happened to catch it. "The difference" is that you'd have a solar system that works the way it's supposed to, and that might be all, or half way to what, you need to do to get your SWG issue straightened out. Plus, pumping water up to the roof multiple times a day requires energy that keeping it up there all day does not.

Good luck! Sorry I couldn't be of more help...