new pool in tucson az

[Dirk]

Absolutely do not run plaster or pebble surfaces above the water line. There are more reasons for that than stated above. That said, I personally don't like tile at the water line, so I'm with you there. It never looks organic to me, and I tend to like organic-looking things. I especially don't like that Grecian tile look (for lack of a better term). I bought my house with a pool already built, so I didn't get to choose mine, but I lucked out in that I love what was done. For the edge tile, they used this stuff that looks like round stones, kind of like river rock (which is about the only hardscape rock I can stand), and it matches some small patches of river rock I have in my yard. It also makes for nice step and bench markers. Point is, there are all kinds of tile to choose from, it doesn't have to be neat little squares. You'll find one you like, that will be easy to keep clean and will enhance the look of your pool. You could start shopping tile stores for ideas.

It was even more organic before I had the plaster replaced with pebble. The pebble guys had to saw off the bottoms of the "rocks" to make a nice, clean edge to meet the pebble.



Rocks, rocks, rocks (along the waterline, marking the steps and bench, and separating the landscape (beyond the pool deck)...

 

[kimkats]

Okay DIrk! You have been holding out on us!!! I LOVE that water line rock!!! WOWER! You say it was already there? You sure lucked out. That tiny part of the yard sure looks pretty too!

That step with the stone is very striking!

Kim

 

[Dirk]

Okay DIrk! You have been holding out on us!!! I LOVE that water line rock!!! WOWER! You say it was already there? You sure lucked out. That tiny part of the yard sure looks pretty too!

That step with the stone is very striking!

Thank you. That's my bench. The three steps at the other end of the pool have that same treatment. Nobody's going to miss my steps, for sure. Actually, my garden is in shambles. Didn't do too well in the winter (I just did all that last summer.). Hopefully most of it will come back. That back corner will eventually be covered in sweet-smelling jasmine, with that mock river running out from underneath, "leading" to the pool.

Yah, I like my "rock" border. Whoever designed my pool just happened to share my taste, so that worked out. Arguably, my "rocks" use a lot more grout than big, square tiles would have, so that's something for justinS to consider if he strays from the conventional look, as I'm suggesting. Not sure if that increases "the ring" issues. Mine was stained pretty good with calcium when I took over the house and pool, but it all came clean with blasting. Hopefully my TFPing will keep it in check and I'll never see "the ring" again...

 

[justinS]

good Morning everyone,

quick question, I believe i have decided on pool equipment..mostly

pump Pentair VSF
filter sand filter Triton II TR 60

I was pretty sure I was going with a SWG, the guy at E Konomy Pool supply in Tucson, suggested I go with a different type of tablet, AquaFinesse ? I found a thread on here with people using AquaFinesse for spas


also, I have no water features, on the suction side, what do you suggest, I was thinking a two valve "T" system, one for floor drains and one for skimmer/kreepy krawler?
the plumber I am considering using has suggested a 3 way valve?
My thought with the two valve system would be, I could use the two valve system obviously in tandem, 25% skimmer/75% floor drain or something like that. If I happen to have alot of skimming needs, I could go out change the valves and "skim like crazy" to help clean. then return to normal.
can i achieve the same process with a 3 way valve? the big issue is I may not know the true function of a three way valve?

Any help and or opinions...thank you

 

[justinS]

those rocks are awesome! Dirk!

 

[mknauss]

Please reconsider the AquaFinesse sales job. It is borax with some 'cleaning' agents. You still use chlorine, or as you were told, Trichlor.

Please read this Pool School - How to Chlorinate Your Pool

You should always use Jandy Never Lube type 3 way valves. Your plumber is correct.

Take care

AquaFinesse is Sodium Carbonate - so not borax but Soda Ash.

My mistake.

 

[justinS]

thank you Mknauss!!

 

[Dirk]

good Morning everyone,

quick question, I believe i have decided on pool equipment..mostly

pump Pentair VSF
filter sand filter Triton II TR 60

I was pretty sure I was going with a SWG, the guy at E Konomy Pool supply in Tucson, suggested I go with a different type of tablet, AquaFinesse ? I found a thread on here with people using AquaFinesse for spas


also, I have no water features, on the suction side, what do you suggest, I was thinking a two valve "T" system, one for floor drains and one for skimmer/kreepy krawler?
the plumber I am considering using has suggested a 3 way valve?
My thought with the two valve system would be, I could use the two valve system obviously in tandem, 25% skimmer/75% floor drain or something like that. If I happen to have alot of skimming needs, I could go out change the valves and "skim like crazy" to help clean. then return to normal.
can i achieve the same process with a 3 way valve? the big issue is I may not know the true function of a three way valve?

I'm no expert here, for sure, but I'll give you some random thoughts that you should consider or check on.

Yay for VS pump! I love mine. But I just read here, somewhere, a caution about variable flow pumps vs variable speed pumps. (Maybe the VSF is both? Not sure.) Anyway, the warning was: while variable flow sounds good, and solves for figuring out that important component of a pool plumbing system (flow rate), some variable flow pumps will push, however much, to achieve the desired flow. Push no matter what. So if your system develops a problem with flow (obstruction, filter problem, whatever) the pump won't know about it, and push more and more to reach it's goal. Something like that. The wisdom was to go with variable speed instead, and calculate or measure for flow. (I have a flow meter in my system, so I know exactly what's happening, flow-wise, all the time.) I also read a note that VF pumps can't be used with a solar heating system. Check all that out before you buy.

I think the consensus here is SWG (those who have them swear by them), and certainly not tabs (except maybe for specific, limited use). My personal opinion is: tabs are the devil and I'll never put another one in my pool. Go to Pool School, as Marty suggests, and sanitize your water the TFP way. And that would be my over-arching advice. Trust TFP explicitly. You can safely ignore advice from any other pool professional. Don't mix'n'match advice from multiple sources. Don't interpolate or modify TFP's advice. Just follow it. And run all your equipment decisions by someone here, just as you are doing. (So you're already on the right track!)

OK, I'm not a pool builder or hydraulic guy (though there are some here that are, who hopefully will weigh in), but I can share with you what worked for me on my pool (which is the limit of my experience and knowledge). Again, just throwin' it out there, see what others think.

A three-way valve is like a controllable T. Three ports, three pipes connect to it. You can mix two into one, or divert one into either or both.

I had pool drains that were plumbed to the skimmer. And I have a three-way valve that is used to control how much water my VS pump draws from either the skimmer or the vacuum port or a mix of the two.

A drain set up like mine can control the flow through the drains by tweaking a gizmo in the skimmer (a diverter plate) that balances how much water is drawn from the drains vs the skimmer. But my pool didn't have a diverter installed, so all my water was being drawn from the skimmer (the path of least resistance) and none from the drains. My pool circulated fine without the drains involved. So, at the advice of the guy that replaced my plaster, I deleted the drains! Yep, I have no main drains. There are some circulation considerations to that that need to be addressed before you get excited by that idea, but I love not having any. Pool looks way better without them, they don't stub toes or hang up my vacuum or brushing. And the biggie for me: while main drains have been improved over the years to make them more safe (from entanglement), they are still not 100% safe. Know what drain is 100% safe? No drain! So if a pool circulation system is designed correctly (how many returns and where they are placed and how they are directed), you don't actually need a main drain, and I understand that is becoming more common in new pool builds. Drains are rarely (if ever) used to actually drain a pool (a portable pump is used for that), so no loss there. Drains are primarily for circulation or cleaning (old school), but there are better ways to do both. You have to check your codes, though, as some municipalities still require them.

OK, the three way. So theoretically, I could use my three-way valve, along with my VS pump, to balance how much water was being drawn from the skimmer and the vacuum, to optimize the performance of each. Problem was, I couldn't get that to work in my pool. The only way I could get enough flow through both, to run the vacuum and clear my surface of leaves, was to goose the VS pump so high as to use a ridiculous amount of watts. So I ended up adding an actuator to my three-way valve! My EasyTouch automation unit turns the valve to either skimmer or vacuum (but not both) according to a schedule, and then adjusts the pump speed to optimize the performance of each. All automatic. I get 100% flow to each (separately), and so can run the pump at the minimum speed to achieve results. It all works great.

Regarding "go out to adjust the valve"... I don't have to "go out" to do anything. My EasyTouch can do all that, automatically or I can control everything manually from my iPhone, iPad, computer or wall unit, while home or away. Are you considering automation? Something to think about. I can schedule how much vacuuming per day, how much skimming, etc. Or I can push a button and do either, on the fly (like to do some extra cleaning before guests arrive, or after a storm, whatever). I even have a "high-speed skim" mode that I can run for a half hour or so, that I can fire up (manually or automatically) whenever I want to "polish" the surface up quickly. The ET then shuts down the high-speed mode automatically, after a pre-determined length of time. The ET moves valves and adjusts the pump for you, for whatever you want to do. Automation can control all those things and more (spas, SWG, features, lights, etc, etc).

If you're going with Pentair, read up on automation, or ask about it here. If you think you might go that way, check back in. I ended up with the wrong version of EasyTouch and am sorry for it. I actually would have been happier with a different model. There are a lot of them, and they have different capabilities that need to be considered before a purchase. Unlike me, don't rely on a recommendation from your PB, make sure you know what you need and what you are getting. TFP can help with all that.

There, that'll keep you busy for a while!

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Oops, forgot to add. There's a large number here who love robots for cleaning. So that takes vacuuming out of the plumbing equation all together. Something else for you to consider. That said, if it were me, I'd be tempted to plumb for a vacuum anyway, so that you could have that option. You can't add that later!!

 

[Dirk]

those rocks are awesome! Dirk!

Thanks. They come attached to a mesh, so are set just like tile. They just don't look like tile! For the steps, we pulled the stones off the mesh and arranged them aesthetically. They're pretty versatile...

By the way, if it's not obvious, the stones were sliced somehow. They have a flat surface, they don't protrude off the wall or steps, they're all even with the surface. So they don't impede brushing or cleaning.

 

[justinS]

PHEW! that was a lot.. thanks. I will double check but I believe that I HAVE to have main drains in the town of Marana, AZ. I was obviously not educated enough on the 3-way valve. the automation seems cool and very less labor wise, but the cost doesn't seem worth it too me. I am saying that with never having a pool, I may regret that statement later.
I will get the SWG, it seems the way to go for sure. not too much more, but from what I am reading the cost is upfront and saved over time.

when you mention robots for cleaning is that different than a kreepy krawler type thing? so far the people I have talked to have used the skimmer as a port?

 

[YippeeSkippy]

when you mention robots for cleaning is that different than a kreepy krawler type thing? so far the people I have talked to have used the skimmer as a port?

Robots have their own collection basket for debris, and don't use the pool pump or filter to operate. Saves clogging up the filter unnecessarily. They also brush the walls up to the water line (the good ones) so you don't have to brush. Suction and pressure side cleaners require the pump to be running to operate which means more cost in electricity than a robot. My Dolphin Discovery runs for 2.5 hours for about fifteen cents.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If you’re going to use a suction side cleaner like the kreepy krawly, I suggest you get a dedicated vacuum port added to your plumbing layout. It’s a lot easier to operate the cleaner that way than to mess around with skimmer adapter plates.

I started off with a KK but ditched it after 4 seasons. I got a Dolphin S-300i robot last year and it was a great addition to my pool. I now use my dedicated vacuum port fir manual vacuuming only and I only do that on a monthly basis in the winter. In the summer, it’s all robotic cleaning.

 

[Dirk]

PHEW! that was a lot.. thanks. I will double check but I believe that I HAVE to have main drains in the town of Marana, AZ. I was obviously not educated enough on the 3-way valve. the automation seems cool and very less labor wise, but the cost doesn't seem worth it too me. I am saying that with never having a pool, I may regret that statement later.
I will get the SWG, it seems the way to go for sure. not too much more, but from what I am reading the cost is upfront and saved over time.

when you mention robots for cleaning is that different than a kreepy krawler type thing? so far the people I have talked to have used the skimmer as a port?

You can add automation later. Mine went in 5 years after the pool was built. But if you think you might ever do it, then that could influence what you are getting now. For example, if you're going with SWG, there are brands better suited than Pentair for stand-alone operation. But if you later automate with Pentair, you might be sorry you didn't buy the Pentair SWG (they work together in very handy ways). Conversely, if you never automate, a Pentair SWG might not be as nice as some other brands (because a Pentair SWG needs a Pentair controller to eek out best performance and features). Catch 22.

Plenty of pool owners don't use automation, but, like SWG, I doubt you'll find many that do that regret buying it.

Also, if you buy the right items at the same time, Pentair gooses their warranty period. I think it's one year to three years. The catch to that is, Pentair only gives either warranty if the equipment is installed professionally, so that increases the cost quite a bit over DIY/Amazon. If you try to save the dough, I think it's a 60-day warranty.

I believe it's safe to claim: buying all your gear from the same manufacturer is a good way to go. There are other brands besides Pentair, of course. My pool came with Pentair, so as I added more gear, I just stuck with Pentair and am glad I did.

There are lots of automatic systems to clean a pool: suction-side vacs, pressure-side vacs, floor cleaners and robot vacs are the biggies, I think. Lots of models, lots of brands. The first three make use of your existing filter pump in some way to do their thing. PS vacs collect debris in their pouch (and require an additional pump). SS and FC send debris to your pool filter. They each connect to your pool's plumbing and require the main pump to run. Robots are completely independent. They plug into an electrical outlet with a cord (though there are cordless models, too), and run around your pool with or without the pump running. They brush (the others don't) and they collect debris in a bin. So they don't impact your other pool systems in any way. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. Plus a lot of personal preference comes into play. This was a very simplified primer, with lots of exceptions, I'm sure. There are plenty of threads here that discuss cleaning systems, at length. Good luck with all that!! I was sold a suction-side before I knew about TFP. I like it, it works well. If it ever breaks down, I'll come back here and ask, just as you are.

I suppose the skimmer port could be used with a suction-side vac. I don't know much about that. I have a dedicated port for my vacuum. The skimmer port was sometimes used for manual vacuum systems (hose on a pole), back in the day. Pressure-side vacs require water pumped into them, so they wouldn't connect to a skimmer port. Floor systems are built it. Robots don't require water flow to run. If one did connect a suction-side vac to the skimmer port, I would expect that would be done for each use, as you wouldn't want a hose coming out of of the skimmer intake, or the access hole, permanently. And if you're going to haul out a vacuum and connect it up every time you want to vacuum, you'd be way better off with a robot. So I'm not sure what "people" are using the skimmer port. Maybe those that wanted to add an auto vac system after their pool was built without a dedicated port, and before robots got good? Dunno. I don't think that is the current, preferred way to go.

 

[Dirk]

I will double check but I believe that I HAVE to have main drains in the town of Marana, AZ.

If you have to have drains, here's some info. Code will require the latest, safest type. But within those, there are many choices. Some are big and tall and will mess with your vacuum and your feet. Others are low profile and will allow the vacuum to run right over them. Some are stark white, others are colored (grey, at least, maybe others). Choose one that disappears into your surface color best. Better yet, I saw this at my pebble installer's show room: They had a super-low-profile drain cover, that they then somehow applied the pebble finish to. It was practically invisible, only the intakes around the edge could be seen! Very cool.

Point is, don't accept whatever the PB slaps on there. There are choices that can fit your own aesthetic sensibilities...

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, there's also a type of drain that is very long and narrow. Like a strip. I haven't seen one myself, but it's supposed to be very safe, and might have a look you like.

 

[kimkats]

You can check the codes in your area but I THINK when someone said you had to have "a main drain" they meant you have to have an" anti-entrapment drain cover" or a duel drain.

Here is an example of the channel drain Dirk is talking about:

http://www.poolfittings.com/channel-pebble-top/

Kim

 

[Dirk]

You can check the codes in your area but I THINK when someone said you had to have "a main drain" they meant you have to have an" anti-entrapment drain cover" or a duel drain.

Here is an example of the channel drain Dirk is talking about:

http://www.poolfittings.com/channel-pebble-top/

The ones I saw were round with pebble on top, so there are round ones, too (and they left less of the drain showing). But that's a great example of the pebble top and the long skinny drain.

You bring up a good point, Kim. Maybe the local codes are referring to the type of drain you must use, not necessarily whether you have to have one or not. Since drains are not used to drain a pool, and are primarily for circulation, I'm wondering why there would be a code that demands their use. As long as sanitation and circulation are achieved, safely, it shouldn't be legislated how you achieve them. Further, it can be proven that no drain is safer than any drain, so they would in essence be forcing you to make your pool less safe by requiring any type of drain (IMO).

What am I missing? Why is a main drain needed (especially if your circulation was engineered to work without one)?

Here's an interesting read about drain safety.

By the way, any port that takes water from a pool can be dangerous, that includes the vacuum port. And they're nearer the surface. They have a safety flap, but it has to be working in order for the suction port to be safe (when the pump is on). So that's another plus for the other types of vacuum systems. Since a pool has to have some sort of port from which to draw water, the safest place for that is in the skimmer, under the skimmer basket. If all the other ports in your pool are returns (outies), then there's nothing to get sucked into. If I needed more circulation, I'd add a second skimmer before I added a drain.

And while I do have a vacuum port, it is rendered somewhat safer by the actuator I have for it. That port only draws water in the middle of the night, when no one is swimming. That's not infallible, but it does add a second layer of protection on top of the safety flap.

There, that aught'a send JustinS's head a'spinnin'!!

 

[MinerJason]

Just read the Marana pool codes recently, and while it doesn't specifically require pools to have a floor drain, it does require all new pools be built such that the pool pump can be used to empty the pool. Only ways I can think of satisfying that requirement without a main drain would require a bit of a loose interpretation of the code. And as expected the code does require an anti-entrapment cover on a main drain unless there are multiple suction ports on different planes at least 3 feet apart.

I'm still trying to figure out for sure if I'll be code compliant if I plaster over my main drain as part of my remodel.

 

[Dirk]

Just read the Marana pool codes recently, and while it doesn't specifically require pools to have a floor drain, it does require all new pools be built such that the pool pump can be used to empty the pool. Only ways I can think of satisfying that requirement without a main drain would require a bit of a loose interpretation of the code. And as expected the code does require an anti-entrapment cover on a main drain unless there are multiple suction ports on different planes at least 3 feet apart.

I'm still trying to figure out for sure if I'll be code compliant if I plaster over my main drain as part of my remodel.

Interesting, wonder what the reasoning is.

So... code interpretation. If I was bound and determined to have a pool with no drains, (and I would be), I'd handle it like this. I'd craft a letter to the Building Dept specifically requesting a code compliant variation for building a pool without a main drain. I would site the safety issues, with stat's. And I would imply, or flat out state, any accidents resulting from city-mandated drains, against the express wishes of the pool owner, would be grounds to hold the City liable. That's just the kind of squeaky-wheel grease that might get results. It probably wouldn't fly in court, and might alienate the Building Dept (which is bad), but it's one way to go. Before I did that (or instead), I'd go down to the planning dept, in person (I do this all the time), and cozy up to one or more of the officials. Let them know your a good guy, just looking to keep your cute little daughter (or whoever) as safe as possible. Humanize the whole thing. Then I would offer viable solutions. Unless the code specifies that the drainage must be available with a push of a button, or a turn of a couple valves, I would present one of these:

I'd show the city a valve system and fitting(s) to which a temporary hose could be connected at the pad and dropped into the pool. Technically, that would satisfy "the pool pump can be used to empty the pool." Just not hard-plumbed to the pool itself.

Or if it must be hard plumbed:

A pipe be plumbed to the very lowest point of the pool, with a single, threaded end that can be capped off (no drain cover). That would require a dive to the bottom to open it, but it might be considered code compliant. That would be much safer than an anti-entrapment cover, and satisfy most of my other complaints about drains (unsightly, snags toes and vacuums, etc). Then you just forget it, you'd never use it to drain the pool anyway. (OK, that one's a bit of a stretch.)

If you catch the right Building Dept guy on the right day... you might get something like either of those to fly.

If not, personally, I would plumb the drains to code and be sure the pipe runs back to the pad (not the skimmer). I'd get my inspection, and then I'd cut the pipe and cap it off. It could be restored at any point. That would negate the danger. Well most of it. People still drown from drains, anti-entrapment or otherwise, even if the pump is off, just by getting snagged on them somehow. Drains = bad. I might take it one step farther, once the pipe was cut, and replace the drain covers with something less obnoxious, and snag proof.

Some of that is crazy talk, I suppose.

I plastered over my drains. I was tempted to do it without checking codes, as a replaster here doesn't need to be inspected. If it ever came up (like at resale time, which is unlikely), I could theoretically empty the pool, chip out down to the existing pipes and reinstall the drains. I even thought about smooshing some sort of marker, like a pebble or small tile or something, into the new plaster to indicate exactly where the old drain lines were.

But instead I rolled the dice and called the city and they said no drains were required.

 

[Dirk]

OK, returning to earth from orbit. If all that sounds like more trouble than it's worth, here are the round ones. They come in colors, even clear! How cool is that? Super low, very little showing after the pebble/plaster goes on:

http://www.poolfittings.com/superflow-360/

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I'd still have a plumbing plan engineered such that the main drains were not needed. Then just keep the drains shut off and never run water through them...

 

[kimkats]

Just read the Marana pool codes recently, and while it doesn't specifically require pools to have a floor drain, it does require all new pools be built such that the pool pump can be used to empty the pool. Only ways I can think of satisfying that requirement without a main drain would require a bit of a loose interpretation of the code. And as expected the code does require an anti-entrapment cover on a main drain unless there are multiple suction ports on different planes at least 3 feet apart.

I'm still trying to figure out for sure if I'll be code compliant if I plaster over my main drain as part of my remodel.

Interesting............I wonder if having a sub pump to drain the pool you can use as needed would be enough.

Can you please post the exact wording of that requirement so I can learn with you?

Kim