"European" approach: MPS + algaecide = safe?

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A

artemf

0
Sep 12, 2017
5
Russia, Orel
Greetings everyone,

I was wondering recently about "active oxygen", "chlorine free" pool & spa treatment products that are mostly sold by european brands.

Examples:

Soft & Easy by Bayrol (Germany)
Product page says:

Soft & Easy is the chlorine free alternative for water disinfection. The combination of granules based on active oxygen and algaecide results in a unique synergy effect, thus ensuring reliable pool water disinfection and prevention of algae growth. In addition, Soft & Easy contains a clarifier for enhanced sparkling water.
...
One pre-measured double sachet treats the water for one week and thus makes dosing very simple.

Looking at the contents (safety data sheet on that page), one half of double sachet is purely "Pentapotassium-bis(peroxymonosulphate)-bis(sulphate)" (MPS), another is

  • sodium carbonate > 50% (pH plus)
  • Aluminum sulfate 14 - hydrate < 10% (flocculant or clarifier)
  • Polymer of N-Methylmethanamine with (chloro methyl)oxirane - 6%
  • 2-propen-1-aminium, N,N-dimethyl-N-2- propenyl-, chloride, homopolymer < 25%

The latter 2 seem to be algaecides, as the same substances are found in their own algaecide product Desalgine Jet - only proportions are reversed.

They also have a solution for spa

Active oxygen granules by Bayrol

For gentle chlorine-free water disinfection

Active oxygen granules will disinfect your spa water gently. This totally chlorine-free treatment method creates a more natural and pleasant water quality. To increase the efficacy, SpaTime active oxygen activator must be used along with active oxygen granules.

Contains: 100 g of the product contains 100 g Pentapotassium bis(peroxymonosulphate) bis(sulphate) (MPS)

Active oxygen activator

To enhance the efficacy of active oxygen granules

Active oxygen activator enhances the efficacy of the active oxygen granules and disinfecting action. The activator only reaches optimal efficacy when used together with active oxygen granules.

Liquid algaecide concentrate
Contains: 100 g of the product contains 22,5 g Polymer of N-Methylmethanamine with (chloro methyl)oxirane

Another company is HTH (Arch Chemicals, bought by Lonza) from France

(warning - use google translate from French)

HTH Easy'ox 4 in 1 (NEW) - double sachets -

For double sachets (translated by google!):

Water soluble sachet 1: active oxygen
TO BE USED IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE ACTIVATOR BAG, ANTIBACTERIAL, CLARIFIER

• Compatible with all filtration equipment • Flocculant action • Packaging in pre-dosed individual bag • Anti-limescale action (sequestration) • Product "without active chlorine" therefore without production of annoying derivatives (chloramines, stabilizer) • Totally free of isocyanuric acid (stabilizer) • High content of active ingredient • Compatible (in solution) with chlorinated, brominated, oxygenated products • Effective regardless of the pH of the treated water • Water-soluble 200 gram sachet with rapid dissolution, no residue • Anti-bacterial • Powerful oxidizer • Suitable for all waters, even very hard

Contains: bis (peroxymonosulfate) bis (sulphate) pentapotassium (> 800 g / kg) and copper sulphate (10 g / kg)

Water soluble sachet 2: activator
TO USE IN ASSOCIATION WITH ACTIVE OXYGEN BAG, ANTI-ALGAE, PH STABILIZER

• Compatible with any filtration equipment • Packaging in pre-dosed individual sachet • Does not modify the pH of the water • Compatible (in solution) with the chlorinated, brominated, oxygenated products • Effective whatever the pH of treated water • Pronounced clarifying effect • Recommended in combination with oxidants (synergy) • Suitable for water very agitated swimming pool • Very high average active ingredient content • Non-foaming at recommended dosages • Stabilizes the pH • Suitable for all water, even very hard water • 134 gram water soluble sachet fast, no residue

Contains: polymerized quaternary ammonium chloride (> 150 g / kg)

HTH has similar products for spa (MPS + algaecide) where it states synergy effects for algaecide with "active oxygen" (MPS).

The question

I've seen posts by chem geek where he explains that MPS is an oxidizer and is a weak disinfectant. However, these companies sell MPS + algaecide and make disinfection claims in EU. They explicitly state that MPS should be used with algaecide to make it work and it wouldn't work without algaecide. Both companies mention "unique synergy effect". I haven't found any research supporting these claims, although I'm not a chemist.

I was wondering if these companies are just selling oxidizer + algaecide and no real disinfection (and thus LYING to customers in their claims) or there's something behind their "synergy" claims. I'm posting it here and hope someone can share additional information on it. If that's true, it might be an easy chlorine-compatible alternative to other water maintenance methods.

Just a note: I know that MPS is a weak disinfectant and EPA requirements, but chem geek in some post stated that EPA's requirements are too strict and 2-log reduction in 2 min (instead of 6-log in 30 sec required by EPA for E. coli) is enough for residual pools, so even if this combination wouldn't pass EPA test, maybe it's safe enough for residual use?
 
Welcome to TFP!

Simple answer is no. This method might keep water clear and algae free but will not provide adequate sanitation of the water, if any at all. "Chlorine free alternatives" are sold through ignorance (note that "ignorance" is not meant to be an insult, just the lack of knowledge on a subject) and convincing people that A: chlorine is bad and B: their system works because SCIENCE! Unfortunately, both are very wrong. Chlorine is quite safe when properly used, and the scientific sounding claims made by these companies are rarely more than impressive sounding words use incorrectly. Words like "Synergy". :rolleyes:
 
Well, there is synergy, like in silver + hydrogen peroxide as discussed in this paper and also confirmed by chem geek here. So I wouldn't call any "synergy" claim incorrect. Also, PMS can be a disinfectant, as shown in this paper. Of course, it's much more diluted in the pool, but it's not impossible to have synergy effect between MPS and algaecide (which can also have biocide properties). I was hoping there's some research after these claims, like in silver + hydrogen peroxide.
 
Could you please provide links to the posts where Richard states that the 2-log reduction is too strict?

As a general note - no there is no "synergistic" effect (I really HATE the overuse of that term!) between algaecides and MPS. If anything, the MPS is going to oxidize and destroy the algaecide, not make it work better.

One thing to understand about European pool standards is that Europe does not allow for the use of CYA as a stabilizer in public/commercial pools. As such, free chlorine levels have to be kept very low (less than 1ppm) or else the water will be way too harsh to swim in and the formation of THMs and DBPs will create dangerous swimming conditions. So in European pools (commercial ones, at least), they typically have very advanced filtration systems that use both active carbon filters, UV disinfection and coagulants to remove bacteria and algae. The final step is to inject small amounts of chlorine (typically less than 0.5ppm) at the return side. They also work very hard to ensure that turnover rates are fast and that circulation patterns are optimized to reduce dead spots. If the EU actually allowed CYA in pools, then they could relax a lot of these extra requirements but they have chosen to go a different way with their pool regulations.

At the end of the day, in a residential swimming pool, you really want a fast acting sanitizer that's capable of maintaining a proper residual in the water. Chlorine is really the only choice for pools. Ignore all the fear-mongering surrounding chlorine as there is just so much disinformation about it regarding safety and efficacy. Too many people get duped into believing that the human body is so fragile that it couldn't possibly hold up to chlorine in water....nothing could be further from the truth. There is a strong urge in the human psyche to have a "reason" why bad things happen and, whenever the mind can find a "bad guy" it makes us feel better. Some people want to believe that all of life's woes are caused by "other things" and if we simply got rid of those "other things" life would be so much better....again, that's not truth, it's wishful thinking.
 
I think you will find that many of this alternative pool care systems/products will fall short of the quick kill times necessary to provide adequate sanitation in the bulk pool water.

At this point the only EPA-approved disinfection alternatives are Chlorine, Bromine and Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB. They provide the quick kill times to make a pool safe.

Richard (Chem Geek) is still very active in pool sanitation issues, but has not posted in a while. He does stop by form time to time to read and check PM's. I might recommend sending him a PM with your e-mail address.

You have to remember, this is a forum dedicated to residential pool owners so your answers may be more readily accessible on a more "professional" directed forum.
 
Re: &quot;European&quot; approach: MPS + algaecide = safe?

JoyfulNoise said:
Could you please provide links to the posts where Richard states that the 2-log reduction is too strict?
Click to expand...

It's the opposite, he stated EPA's 6-log reduction in 30 seconds is too strict. Here:

As for using MPS at hot temperatures with copper instead of silver, it is very unlikely that it would be able to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 since the challenge bacteria used in the laboratory test portion of that efficacy requirement uses two fecal bacteria (E.coli and S.faecalis now classified as E.faecalis) and would probably require silver ion to put the kill times into the range required in that test which is a 6-log reduction in 30 seconds which chlorine can do at around 0.4 ppm FC (with no CYA) or thereabouts. I believe this test to be too strict, but that's another discussion though even a more realistic test using a rather loose 2-log reduction in 2 minutes would still be far away from being passed by silver ion (and, of course, would never be passed by copper ions). Also, there is scientific literature describing how silver ion reacts quickly with the irritating peroxydisulfate (persulfate) minor component in MPS as described in this post. Though that post notes how hotter temperatures have MPS with very fast kill times, I contacted Dupont a while ago about this and though there is some temperature dependence, they didn't find such an extreme in kill time -- something else would need to be added in addition to MPS to pass the EPA tests.

- - - Updated - - -

tim5055 said:
Richard (Chem Geek) is still very active in pool sanitation issues, but has not posted in a while. He does stop by form time to time to read and check PM's. I might recommend sending him a PM with your e-mail address.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I will try to ping Richard, maybe he has something to add to this discussion.

On a general note, I'm not arguing about the use of chlorine, but curious to know if there's any substance behind disinfection claims of MPS + algaecide. I'm sure we're all for having more safe choices.
 
artemf said:
I was hoping there's some research after these claims, like in silver + hydrogen peroxide.
Click to expand...
I'm sure we all would love to see such research. Problem with anything labeled "Alternative" is that if there is good research and studies supporting their claims then they stop being alternative. As the saying goes, "What do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine."

As for the chemgeek quote you posted, I think you are missing the part where he says that even what he considers much more reasonable kill times (which I disagree with him there, but I digress) is still far above what silver is capable of and nearly infinitely more than copper is capable of. And to be clear, chemgeek is very intelligent and have given a LOT of great information over the years that forms the foundation of TFPC, but he is NOT a medical doctor.
 

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artemf said:
Well, there is synergy, like in silver + hydrogen peroxide as discussed in this paper and also confirmed by chem geek here. So I wouldn't call any "synergy" claim incorrect. Also, PMS can be a disinfectant, as shown in this paper. Of course, it's much more diluted in the pool, but it's not impossible to have synergy effect between MPS and algaecide (which can also have biocide properties). I was hoping there's some research after these claims, like in silver + hydrogen peroxide.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand the concept of synergy and I know about silver + MPS because it is an approved EPA sanitizer for hot tubs (mainly because temperatures are higher and therefore the Ag ions are more active against bacteria and viri). My comment was aimed more at marketing language. When I think of the word "synergy" or "synergistic" it's more along the lines of a catalyst - something that enhances the reaction rate of another chemical without becoming part of the reaction itself. Or, if you like a pharmaceutical analogy, the use of adjuvants in vaccine formulations - the adjuvant is added to the mix to help promote the absorption and reaction of the vaccine with the bodies immune system.

In terms of MPS + an algaecide, that is not a synergy. It's simply two different chemicals working on the same body of water. Again, the problem I have with that is the MPS is an oxidizer which will, given time, destroy or degrade the algaecide. That's not "synergy" in my book.

artemf said:
On a general note, I'm not arguing about the use of chlorine, but curious to know if there's any substance behind disinfection claims of MPS + algaecide. I'm sure we're all for having more safe choices.
Click to expand...

I can see others have responded since I started typing this so I won't reiterate their points. Believe me, TFP loves nothing more than to use good science to help promote more efficient and, hopefully, less expensive pool care. Unfortunately, the pool industry is rife with snake-oil salesman and junk-science products marketed by using "science-y" sounding prose and misusing valid scientific research. Specifically with oxygen-containing products like MPS or peroxide, there is valid science that they can act as disinfectants and biocides. BUT, the concentrations used are often not applicable to pool water OR you'd have to use so much more in terms of concentration that other harmful effects show up. People ask about peroxide all the time because they see it being used in the medical/hospital settings OR in water treatment plants BUT those circumstances are vastly different than someone actually swimming in the chemicals. So even if the science is sound, the engineering application of that product or process would be so expensive and cumbersome as to make chlorine look much better, not worse....

And thank you for your question. It's always important to discuss these issues because so many people are exposed to so much misinformation. Hopefully Google searches will bring more people here seeking the truth and having good discussions about the topic helps in that regard.
 
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