Really confused about my equipment for new pool and I am not sure the PB is any less.

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dev96

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Mar 7, 2017
25
rocklin
Hi Everyone,

We are in the middle of building out our pool and we just hit an issue with the equipment panel and as we went through upgrade options and how it is all setup I am a little bit confused and the info I am finding on the web seems to mismatch what they are proposing, partially. So I could really use some advice.

Pool:
40x20 freeform
-grotto with waterfall on top and sheer water falling down
-side water feature
-no spa
-future solar installation which will need to go up to second story, 8 panels.

The PB recommended:
-a variable pump that will drive the filter/skimmer and side waterfall
-a secondary pump to drive the grotto (2HP single speed)
-equipment is Jandy, VS PlusHP

I have asked now for a variable secondary since we may want to run it less or more and it seems a waste to have it go into the pool and pay for it.


But now i am confused about a couple of things the PB suggested:

-the main pump with take the water off skimmers, run it through filter and then go back to pool/small waterfall
-the secondary pump will drive the grotto waterfall and the solar when installed. It will not be filtered.

But every diagram I see has the this configuration: pump, filter, solar.

With our configuration I have to run one pump to clean the pool and second to heat it. This seems weird.

So questions that are in my mind....

Should the solar follow the filter on the main pump?
Should both the main and secondary pumps go into the filter? Should maybe both take water from the skimmers and just return it to one of the two water features?
If only one water feature will ever run at the same time (we are ok with that, they are next to each other), would one pump that do the job instead of 2 and it would just switch where it returns the water?

Assuming that we do have the 2 pumps and one runs filter and the small water and the other one is just a grotto pump...is there a way to make both run into the solar?

It just seems like a waste to have this split of functions.

Totally confused,

Michael
 
The water features are usually not filtered because they are not something that should be run all the time. It does not matter where they get their water from but it's ideal to use a large suction line situated as close to the pump as possible. Wall ports are very common.

If you are planning on solar, it would be advisable to hook the solar heating to the pump that is already running daily (main filter pump).

A VS pump for the grotto would be fine but you would be better served with a high flow, low head waterfall pump like an AFP-180. The pump your builder is proposing will be horribly inefficient, loud and very expensive to run.

The second smaller water feature driven by the main pump should be controlled by an automated valve so it is only active when you command it to be. That is not something you are going to want running constantly everyone the pump is on. Depending on the size and how you plan to use the waterfall, it might not be a bad idea to consider a third pump for that water feature.
 
The BP was originally proposing the VS Pump as the main pump, This is the variable one. And the Grotto would run on a single speed pump. I was the one who asked for 2 variables as instead. My understanding was that if we had a single speed 2HP pump for the grotto then it would be very loud and inefficient if we were to pump half the water direct into pool vs the top of grotto waterfall and sheer. He said that I would control the flow of water over the grotto by putting more or less direct into pool. I said, why not control that with a variable pump instead which I read were more efficient and quieter. Sounds like I may have it wrong.

So it sounds like main one is filter, small water feature and solar. Secondary is Grotto water only.

In that scenario, what would you suggest for the pumps?


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And I will ask him to make sure that the second one is controllable, I am pretty sure it is, but at this point I am lost a bit on where we are with him as I was just told that to get solar in later I have to upgrade from a P4 to P8 circuit, at a cost of like $1500-2000, so I am revisiting the whole thing. His adamant statement that solar is off the water feature does worry me as I cannot find a single diagram like that and if I was running this for 12 hours to clean the pool I would want to heat at the same time.


I just found the Jandy equivalent to the AF180 I think. Jandy SWF125. This is 3/4 HP. If this is enough to run the grotto than I wonder if they were proposing a 2HP pump solely because they were sure that we would run the solar off it as well.

I need to get the solar people out here, but it is very hard. They send salespeople who know nothing. At the PB, who builds tons of pools it seems that most people are just knowledgeable enough to sell it, not to explain it or argue one vs the other.
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I'm not up on Jandy Automation so I'm not quite sure if his statement is correct about upgrading your panel....I doubt it is though because solar control is included with the base model panels I'm familiar with.

Your main pump absolutely should be a VS pump. It should handle filtration, solar and the small waterfall.

The feature pump can also be a VS but if not it should be a Waterfall pump. A VS pump would give the luxury of dialing in the flow you want off the grotto and they really aren't that much more expensive then the single speed pumps relatively speaking.

Powering the solar heating off a dedicated water feature pump is a horrible idea. You'll have to run two pumps throughout the day to do the job that one could have easily done on its own and all of the aeration from the waterfall will make your pH skyrocket as well as cool some of that heated water
 
Builders use 2hp pumps because that's what they've always done... These are high head low volume pumps that will cavitate with high flow and no back pressure.

With solar heating you want the highest flow possible with minimal pressure.

That 125 pump should work perfectly.
 
Thanks Brian,

So I got it.
Variable VS Pump for the main one, running it all, but grotto.
Either the same VS or the SWF125 for just the grotto waterfall. Basically go for lower lower cost here.

And PB is wrong about solar being off the secondary and not using the filter...thank you, this is the most important confirmation as they are 100% I am wrong (I did just search google images for 'pool solar diagram' so my knowledge is minimal I admit).

-----

On the topic of the panel. I was told that P4 has only 4 functions. 1. main pump, 2. secondary pump 3. lights . and 4. the controller of that small waterfall. So to add solar control I need at least a 6 function one. The upgrade price we're looking at is like $1500 and I am seriously just considering letting him leave it as is. Then what I get solar I think I can get a higher model if needed and it will still cost less then upgrading now. He claims its all the labor...but again I am confused because if I only have 4 'functions' then there is no more labor to install the one with additional ones that are not used.

I guess I am off to research what all these functions mean. I mean I understand you have to wire it, but for the unit to take more it should not cost $450 for 4, $950 for 6 and $1300 for 8. (those are web prices not PB, just double there). To me it seems it should be more like the irrigation systems. 8 zones $99, 16, $149, 32 $199. The more you have, the lower the 'per function cost.




 
dev,

Brian is right on about NOT using the grotto system to feed your Solar.. That idea assumes that you will be running your grotto 24/7 and just does not make any sense.

As far as the P4 vs. P8 is concerned, I think you can never have too many relays... :p The numbers 4 and 8 are the number of control relays in the system. The Automation system can control many "functions" without relays. The relays are used to control external devices that need AC power, such as a single speed pump, pool light, accent lighting, Spa, Blower etc. Normally things, like the control of a VS pump, valve movement, or solar are all built into the basic system and require no relays at all.

For reference, I have an EasyTouch with 4 relays.. I wish I had the ET8 as I keep finding new things that I want to control, but have run out of relays... Sigh!!!

Thanks for posting, and listen to Brian as he really knows what is talking about..

Jim R.
 
Well, I got the equipment in and installed.

There are 2 VSPHP pumps, variable pumps. 2 issues worry me:

1. One of the pumps goes only to Grotto and back, it bypasses the filter, where the solar will also go. This seems to me like a major waste of energy, I thought both pumps woudl go through filter, so it is always cleaning while something is running.
2. The PB seems to have forgotten about the Salt water system and put in a chlorinator instead. I guess that is an easy fix.
 
Here are some pics:

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Dev,

It makes sense to me to not run the grotto through the filter. Driving a lot of water through a filter is harder to do and just decrease the amount of water your grotto can have. It will not be much of an energy issue as you will find that you will not run the grotto as much as you think you will.

While waterfalls look great, they have several problems that no one thinks about when designing new pools. The noise is much more than most people think it will be. Water features in general, cause aeration, which in-turn causes your pH to constantly increase. You will soon find that it only make sense to run the water features when you have guests or when you want, but not continuously.

I would follow up on the Salt System ASAP, so that it does not get left out... Having a salt system is way more important then you can imagine at this point... (You can thank me later... :p)

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

- - - Updated - - -

I would think that you solar needs to run off the main pump which means it should also be going through the filter....
 
A water feature needs volume and flow rate, not pressure. So a pool pump that is high-head (high pressure) is kind of waste. Generally speaking, an open pipe water feature line a grotto/waterfall really should have a waterfall pump attached to it. They are more efficient at moving large volumes of water at high rates. See if the PB can swap out one VSP for a waterfall pump. Not going through the filter is fine, my waterfall she’s not and it’s never been an issue.

Ditch the tab chlorinated and get the SWG.
 
Dev,

The good thing about having a VS pump for your waterfall, is that you can adjust it for exactly what you want to see.. some days you might want Niagara Falls and other days, just a trickle..

Jim R.
 
I have a feeling that he will not swap the VS to a water feature pump for free...it will cost me. The idea with the VS was to have the ability to run it more or less, and I thought the VS was suppose to be an efficient pump, so that's wht this made sense. Originally it was to to a 2 HP single speed water feature....
 
Also -- your pictures do not show anywhere in your piping system to place a SWCG. I would suspect lots of push back by your PB as it will take extensive repiping to fit one in.

Take care.
 
Oh is this why I am not getting any replies to my texts? They messed up? I was wondering how much space that needs. There is space on the side, but that is for the AC. We were about to put that back (it was removed to make space on the side for heavy equipment to get back). Maybe we should hold off on putting that back then. Now you have me really worried.

- - - Updated - - -

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That's the space on side, but you can see the cable for AC....it sounds like they need to ptu the salt water in between this equipment (near filter I am sure). Wonder if they made the whole pad the wrong size.
 
Not to open a can of worms -- but the 90's look suspiciously like DWV rated. Not good. They are not designed for pressure.

May want to broach that too ---
 
Started googling that and I understand what you are saying. This is not going to be a fun conversation. Between the PB appearing not to know their stuff (and this is a large company) about where solar goes into the system and them screwing up the salt. Am I looking for a marking that says something along the lines of 'PVC Schedule 80 (SCH 80) pipe' to be used instead?

And now that you mention the Salt not fitting in, I do wonder where the solar people would fit their piece, of they will have to rip this out and redo. I mean it is just that tiny space between the filter and the outgoing pipes, how do you put the solar in there, and isn't that suppose to be somewhere near the wall. The PB knows that I will be putting in Solar
 
Here’s why I don’t like pool pumps in water features - you can cause them to cavitate and they are not designed for low Head applications.

I have a Pentair WhisperFlo on my waterfall which has the exact same wet end as the IntelliFlo VSP. I had to install what is essentially a choke valve on the waterfall return line because the head loss was too low and the pump was operating way off its pumping curve. I can literally make the pump cavitate (yes, true cavitation) by opening up the choke valve too much. That’s a quick and easy way to destroy a pump.

Now you MIGHT be able to dial in a VSP at a low enough speed to get the flow you want without cavitation, but that’s not automatic. It requires that there is enough head loss in the plumbing to keep the pump on its operating curve. However, there could also be a fine line between efficient operation and cavitation. It all depends.

With a water feature pump, they operate at half the typical speed of a pool pump (~1750 RPM) and their wet ends and impellers are designed to push a lot of volume at low head. It’s very hard to make those pumps cavitate and then you can easily use a three way diverter setup to precisely tune the flow you want to see.

As for cost, water feature pumps are single speed pumps and should cost a few hundred dollars less than a VSP...so I don’t see why the PB would balk at that?
 

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