Help. Can't stabilize pH with normal alkalinity

What is crazy to me is the pool looks absolutely beautiful right now. Crystal clear sparkling water. It will stay that way until the chlorine falls to 8. That's when the green/yellow patches start in the shadier parts of the walls. Then small piles of similar color silt like stuff collects on the bottom. The water gets dull and off it goes. I can only assume this is mustard algae. I fed horror stories where people had to take their sand filters apart, replace the sand. That's why I'm going so crazy trying to keep everything in line so after SLAMMING it won't come back.
Have any of you had to deal with this?
 
The Taylor pH test already has sodium thiosulfate in it and the reagent is formulated to read pH when FC is up to 10 ppm. I think that adding anything to the reagent would likely interfere with the test and invalidate the results. If you really need to measure pH when FC is above 10 TFTestkits.net sells a pH meter.

I definitely agree with lowering TA to 60.
 
It will stay that way until the chlorine falls to 8. That's when the green/yellow patches start in the shadier parts of the walls. Then small piles of similar color silt like stuff collects on the bottom. The water gets dull and off it goes. I can only assume this is mustard algae. I fed horror stories where people had to take their sand filters apart, replace the sand. That's why I'm going so crazy trying to keep everything in line so after SLAMMING it won't come back. Have any of you had to deal with this?

I personally have not had any issues. This clearly sounds to me like you have a circulation problem in the pool. Have you read the mustard algae section in pool school. What does the pool look like? How many returns, skimmers and main drains? How many times per week do you brush. What about the filter and plumbing?

Get the TA down to keep the PH down and see how it goes. You state that you are having TA and PH issues, but now you also mention that you have mustard algae. Can you please upload some pictures of the pool and spots, etc. Replacing sand is because of channeling and not mustard algae. Backwashing will remove this as you go along. One last thought. You may want to fill the pool up all the way to the top of the skimmer. Set the multiport valve on waste and vacuum away. Start with the areas that you are concerned with and then move on to the floors, etc. You will bypass the filter.

If your tap water's TA is lower than the pool water, naturally the TA will come down if you replace a little water. Thanks!
 
I will get a picture. I have twp return jets, one skimmer, one main drain in the bottom. I always thought it had excellent circulation. I never had an issue with this type of algae until end of last summer. I brush weekly.
The Jets are near the top of the water. And pointed straight out.
 
I couldn't upload a photo. The best I could do was put it on my avatar but it's pretty blurry.
I will add that simply filling my pool moor and vacuuming on waste is a challenge. I do it when I can but am limited on fill water. I have a well and water softener. I can only run so much in a day. I cannot use water straight from the well. It's awful.
I can only raise the water level 1 inch per day. We rely on heavy rain to compensate for evaporation or vacuuming
 
The photos need to be jpeg. The water does however look clear. I was throwing out the circulation, as this past week, my friend with one return, main drain and skimmer went from clear to cloudy to algae. We cleared up the pool. I was not pointing to this area as the problem.

I would highly recommend the rotating heads for the pool as this will increase circulation. Although your TA must come down to the 60-70 level or you will really have rising PH. It took me 18 months to stabilize my PH. If you do not mind the chore weekly (muriatic acid), they work really well. I had 4 heads at one point and every 4 to 5 days I had to lower PH from 7.8 to 7.4. If you use only 2 of them, the interval may be less frequent. You can also go from 7.8 to 7.2 with acid additions and this will lower your TA even further.

ROTATING HEADS FOR A SWIMMING POOL

https://www.amazon.com/Circulator-10022a-Automatic-Rotating-Swimming/dp/B007Z32UOY

The Circulator Rotating Water Jets for Swimming Pools - YouTube
 
I always thought we had great circulation since our pump was replaced a few years ago. But since you raise the issue, I'm wondering if you may be onto something here.
I looked at the valve for the skimmer and main drain. It's pulling almost entirely from the skimmer. The main drain is not pulling as much as it could. I think it was left that way accidentally after I
vacuumed last year. It's possible that the water in the deep end is not circulating very much.
It may not be the whole problem but it certainly isn't helping. Thank you for bringing that up. I left here everybody's ideas.
 
What is crazy to me is the pool looks absolutely beautiful right now. Crystal clear sparkling water. It will stay that way until the chlorine falls to 8. That's when the green/yellow patches start in the shadier parts of the walls.

Just a thought on this part....have you tested your CYA to be certain it's 30? With the algae growth, it might be higher, which would require more chlorine. Using tri-chlor tabs etc. will continuously raise the CYA (which can only be lowered by drain/refilling the pool).

Non-SWCG Pools

CYA (Stabilizer)Minimum FCTarget FCShock FC
20*​
2​
3-5​
10​
30​
2​
4-6​
12​
40​
3​
5-7​
16​
50​
4​
6-8​
20​
60​
5​
7-9​
24​
70*​
5​
8-10​
28​
80*​
6​
9-11​
31​
90*​
7​
10-12​
35​
100*​
8​
11-13​
39​

 
I always thought we had great circulation since our pump was replaced a few years ago. But since you raise the issue, I'm wondering if you may be onto something here.

A pump is designed to turn over water for filtration. The circulation issue is where the return jets only cover a certain area. I was real lucky with 8 of them in the pool. Same pool builder 10 years ago placed 2 of them in a pool on the same block. Only reason why I considered this was some marketing gimmick with octal circulation (wow $80 of return jets). Everything kind of worked out. I tell every single person to get at least 4 in the pool plus the steps. Oversize the filter and pump and you will never regret the extra $1,000 decision.


I looked at the valve for the skimmer and main drain. It's pulling almost entirely from the skimmer. The main drain is not pulling as much as it could. I think it was left that way accidentally after I
vacuumed last year. It's possible that the water in the deep end is not circulating very much.

I have mine set equally. You will not feel suction in the main drain as the cover is designed to protect people from getting sucked in. I forget the law, but it is very serious with main drains. In one town, I heard 4 main drains are required by code.


It may not be the whole problem but it certainly isn't helping. Thank you for bringing that up. I left here everybody's ideas.

FYI, a lower CYA would mean you will be burning more chlorine. Still effective, but not as much. Minimum 30. I keep mine between 30-40 all season and at the last minute raise my CYA to 50 before closing. This way, upon opening, my CYA is exactly where it needs to be.
 

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I should know the main drain law here but I don't. Our state senator while in private practice won one of the first big lawsuits over that issue back in the 90s. This pool is about 30 years old so it would've been built before there was a law.
And yes I have tested my CYA with a drop test/view tube. I have an HTP test kit, waiting for the Taylor TF-100 to come in the mail sometime next week.
 
Just to rehash your minor issue. The PH issue, because I went through this as a sophomore TFP follower. My PH level indicates on the test higher than it's actual number on any FC level above 5. So my preference is to keep CYA 40 or so, so that I can accurately test my PH immediately prior to my daily add of chlorine, since that's the time my FC is lowest and can get a good reading. Morevoer, if you look at SLAM steps, I'm pretty sure it instructs you to test and adjust PH before you start and then not test it again until you're done, because testing and/or adjusting PH while SLAMing is a terrible idea. So just wait until you've got things fixed before addressing the PH drift issue.

Notice I never mentioned TA when discussing PH. TA management, in my opinion, is not addressed correctly in TFP School or in any other pool management teaching that I've ever read. The problem with the way TA is taught is that everyone publishes a range, and as novice pool owners, when we see a range, we try to adhere to it. But that's not what we should do with TA. TA is simply a level that each pool owner adjusts at his/her specific best level to keep PH most stable within limits. If your pool has continual drifting PH upward, then the TA is too high. If your PH continually drops, then your TA is too low.

However, if you're currently fighting an algae problem and you've already started SLAM, then this is not the time to try and get your TA spot on, and when you do figure out which way that you move TA, then those adjustments need to be made very slowly and gradually so as not to over shoot that most-appropriate level. The way someone has already recommended to you to lower TA is the way I did it when I had the same problem; well, that is after chem geek finally explained to me that my TA did not have to fall in that recommended range. You add acid to get PH in range and continue to do that over and over. Eventually, the TA will find its way down to the point where PH quits drifting. When this happened to me, the PH quit drifting at TA 40. This is why I say that those published ranges are misleading and don't necessarily apply to everyone's pool all the time. But please don't measure and adjust PH until you show FC under 5 and then go slow and easy. If you take your time and get it set just right, PH necomes a non issue. I've not adjusted PH in a season and a half. Current TA is 60, but it wouldn't matter to me if it were 30. According to what Chem Geek told me back then, there is a lower limit that you don't want to go beyond; it's based on something called "carbonate alkalinity" or something to that effect, but for most people, they're not going to come close to that number. I think back then mine calculated in the upper 20s, and my PH stabilized at or about 40; so no big deal.
 
Yea I have been really hung up on proper ranges. I get scared when I read that a low alkalinity will rip the the plasticizers out of my new vinyl liner and other such awful things.
I also freak out over pH at 7.8 cuz the forum says my chlorine is nearly ineffective.
None of this was happening until I used a product called yellow gone to kill mustard algae. I had to adjust things prior to using it and then afterwards.
So, that's what got me into this mess. Couldn't straighten it out completely cuz the algae was coming back. And I wanted to get on that right away.
I appreciate everyone's recommendations and thoughts. I am taking the advice and backing off. I'm continuing to SLAM. Haven't checked this morning yet of course it rained last night.
 
Back in 2015 when I was having that PH drift issue, I was not having the problems you were having...I had a clear pool. I too worried about the fact that my pool kept quickly drifting from where I'd set it two or three times per week (at or about 7.3) back up to 7.8 and then the next day, up to 8.0; and the cycle would continue. I was keeping my chlorine as per TFP instructions for whatever my CYA was at the time. I never had a cloudy or other color issue with my pool, but I too worried that my chlorine wasn't working due to the fact that my pool was most-times in that 7.8-8.0 range. I kept causing my own problems, because every couple weeks with all those frequent acid adds, I would test my TA, and would raise it from 50 back up to mid range. In those days, TFP recommended 70-90 for vinyl liner pools, and so every two to three weeks, I'd raise it from 50 back up to around 80. I didn't know better. There was nothing in the literature of pool school that told me differently, and I'm not chemistry minded. My trouble free pool was a lot of trouble.

Nowadays, the experts here are quicker to point out the correct fix for TA for an individual pool than when I was having the problem. I see this same type post about once every two weeks. Someone is at or near or below the recommended minimum and is still having a drifting PH problem. There is a short discussion about this in the pool school on the opposite end where it says not to lower TA just for the sake of lowering TA, but only for keeping PH stable, but the pool school could still use some tweaking in this regard in my opinion. I keep lobbying for it, but do understand they try to keep it as simple as possible and the ranges work for 95% of pool owners, so it may not be worth a more complicated discussion.

Just keep working at it and reporting your progress or problems back here. The mustard algae is a far bigger issue. The PH is probably reporting higher than it actually is, but when you get that figured out, you can tackle the PH issue, and when you get this all figured out, you'll be very knowledgeable about your pool, you'll have a trouble free pool, and you'll want to tell others what you've learned, but most won't care!
 
Thank you so much for your replies. I am going to go back and read about the pH.
I had good news this morning. Chlorine stayed at 20. No overnight loss. I was so thrilled.
But then I had to check my CYA level since finding out my dad has been adding tablets to the skimmer while I work over the weekend. I had stopped all stabilized chlorine since the last test.
Of course my CYA is no longer 30. It's 50!!!!!
So now my slam/MA level is wrong. I am so mad.
So today's question, since I had no overnight loss, am I OK to let it drop or do I need to raise chlorine to 30?
God bless all of you kind folks for helping me. We are considering filling this sucker in with dirt and making a giant flower bed. Haha.
 
I personally have not had any issues. This clearly sounds to me like you have a circulation problem in the pool. Have you read the mustard algae section in pool school. What does the pool look like? How many returns, skimmers and main drains? How many times per week do you brush. What about the filter and plumbing?

Get the TA down to keep the PH down and see how it goes. You state that you are having TA and PH issues, but now you also mention that you have mustard algae. Can you please upload some pictures of the pool and spots, etc. Replacing sand is because of channeling and not mustard algae. Backwashing will remove this as you go along. One last thought. You may want to fill the pool up all the way to the top of the skimmer. Set the multiport valve on waste and vacuum away. Start with the areas that you are concerned with and then move on to the floors, etc. You will bypass the filter.

If your tap water's TA is lower than the pool water, naturally the TA will come down if you replace a little water. Thanks!

You are so right!!!!
I read an article about pool circulation/dead spots. It was quite thorough about where the dead spots would be in various shapes pools. I have a rectangle.
Everywhere it listed is exactly where this algae forms.
We've had no problem for years, I guess we've been lucky until this particularly resistant algae has shown up. I'm never going to get it under control with the circulation issue. I really thought that fast-moving water across the top meant the water was really moving. Only the top 1/3 is circulating properly. The main drain isn't open enough either. That valve handle is nearly busted that's why I haven't adjusted it yet. I hope to make these changes today if the rain stops.
Thank you so much for your post. I never would have thought to look at the circulation if you hasnt raised IMG_2333.jpgthat issue.
 
Well, Dad was trying to help. Glad you found out about him adding the extra tabs. I was suspicious of your CYA level and am happy you retested it! Don't fill in the pool just yet....you're getting great info. Hang in there.
 

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