Can I fix my plumbing?!

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G

GeoffM

0
Dec 8, 2014
29
Murrieta, CA
Subjective question seeing as you don't know me :D

So we moved into this rental property which has a pool. However, the pump fails to prime maybe 1 in 10 times. Today a repair guy came out and pointed out several leaks, plus the pump was very old and rusted. Cost to replumb only was $400; cost to replumb with a new pump $1400. Landlady predictably balked at the cost. This is to chop the pipes from the skimmer and drain before they go into the diverter (?) valve, and chop between the pump and the filter (the rest of the plumbing is newer). In total probably only 10' of pipe, though with new valves, connectors, gaskets, and a handful of 90degree and 45degree bends. This is just the above-ground kit in the immediate vicinity of the pump.

I see on pool supply websites new pumps run from $305 upwards without looking too hard. Plumbing I would hazard a guess at under $100. Valves/connectors etc maybe another $100?

Now, for comparison as to whether I could do it, I have previously plumbed in several hundred feet of irrigation (PVC pipe, connectors, sprinklers, valves; primer and cement/solvent). Is pool plumbing much the same thing, albeit somewhat larger? I'm aware there is plenty of information here on the how.

In case you're thinking the landlady should just cough up, I'm not that bothered - I can understand why she's balking at the cost, and I really don't mind helping out if it helps keep the relationship pleasant.

Thanks.
 
Geoff,

If you can do sprinklers, then you can do repair work on pool plumbing. PCV is PVC.

I say that without seeing your equipment pad. I suggest that you post a pic of your pad and see what suggestions you might get.

When a pump does not prime, "most" of the time the problem is a suction side air leak. And, "most" suction side air leaks are cause by a poor seal between the pump lid and the pump body. And, since we are on a roll here, "most" of the time this air leak can be solved by lubing or replacing the O-Ring under the lid.

Show us a pic and you'll get many more responses..

Jim R.
 
Well Geoff, Jim nailed it and beat me to the punch. :) Since you have plenty of experience with PVC, pool plumbing won't be foreign to you either. But the important thing is to ensure you're repairing what needs to be fixed so you don't waste time & money. As Jim noted, if the pump isn't priming, perhaps it's a suction side leak only and no fault of the pump itself. Have you already exhausted everything on the TFP Pool School - Suction Side Air Leaks page? Now let's assume you did change-out the PVC from the poolside skimmer to the pump just to be safe (including valves along the way), and you still needed to replace the pump. You have the option of replacing just the motor along with perhaps new impeller & diffuser to be safe. That's an option. You also could change-out the entire unit and simply reconnect the plumbing.

Depending on your current pool equipment and pool type/size, that will drive your pump/motor options. Either way, all of this can be done yourself if you have some time. I would suggest updating your TFP signature. You can click EDIT YOUR SIGNATURE and it will help us later to advise you properly.
 
Wow, thanks for the replies. I have no idea on the volume of the pool as it's one of these freeform shapes. If you enclosed the maximum dimensions in a box then 20' x 40'. Now put three circles such that the middle circle overlaps the outer two in a triangular shape, but not those outer two overlapping each other. Then freeform a line around the circles. Depth is varying but I'd say 4'-6' on average - doesn't seem to be deeper, but at 60F I've not tried it... (only moved in a month ago).

To be fair, yes the pool repair guy probably erred on the safe side of "replace the lot". Yes, it is sucking air. A lot of air. I can see/hear where a leaks is - the diverter valve (excuse me if I have the wrong terminology). He was also concerned about two connectors between that valve and the pump in just 6" of pipe - old repairs probably. The pump, he says, is very old and inefficient and just replacing that would save us on the electricity (plus a one off rebate). Also one (or more) of the screw, um, ring things joining the plumbing to the pump is cracked. The O ring under the clear plastic dome was ok, according to the pool guy, who also lubed it.

Potentially there are leaks under the ground. That I can't do myself as it would involve digging through 30' of concrete. I just have to hope that that is okay.

In the attached picture the parts he's suggesting to replace are from below the 90deg elbows on the grey pipes on the right (from the skimmer/drain), through the pump, and to above the 45deg elbow on the white pipe heading to the top left of the picture which goes to the filter. I'll take a better picture tomorrow if this one is not good enough. There is also solar involved but that's further down the pipe.

20170223_170112.jpg

I mentioned doing it myself to the landlady and though she seemed appreciative of the gesture, she's now worried about liability - if I mess it up causing more damage, or injure myself.
 
I can see/hear where a leaks is - the diverter valve (excuse me if I have the wrong terminology).
Click to expand...
Sounds like the 3-way valve with the black handle. Those have O-rings that can go bad over time. Simply removing the screws and inspecting, replacing, and/or re-lubing might help.
He was also concerned about two connectors between that valve and the pump in just 6" of pipe - old repairs probably.
Click to expand...
To confirm, try wrapping those areas with plastic wrap. See if that helps reduce air intake before the pump. If you rule-out that area as bad, that's one less problem to fix.
The pump, he says, is very old and inefficient and just replacing that would save us on the electricity (plus a one off rebate).
Click to expand...
More than anything this points to the motor (dry end) and not the entire assembly. Very possible it is outdated. For a rebate, the repairman might be referring to a variable speed pump (VSP). Those are nice and many owners love theirs for their programmable features to operate various parts of the pool (spa, fountains, SWG, waterfall, etc). But if you don't have many features, you could also go with a new 2-speed motor. So I just wanted you to know you probably have options. Of course, replacing the entire unit is still a possibility and sometimes is worth it just to start fresh with a new set-up.
Also one (or more) of the screw, um, ring things joining the plumbing to the pump is cracked.
Click to expand...
Those retaining rings, or the union itself, can be replaced as required. Not a huge issue.
Potentially there are leaks under the ground. That I can't do myself as it would involve digging through 30' of concrete. I just have to hope that that is okay.
Click to expand...
Totally understand. While underground leaks are not the norm and it's always best to rule-out everything aboveground, they do happen. I would exhaust everything aboveground first before going down that road.

In the end, it certainly may boil-down to the landlord based on the overall scope of the project. In the meantime, the more that can be done to eliminate possible trouble areas and isolate the true problem(s) might help in her decision. Best of luck to you, and have a nice weekend.
 
Texas Splash said:
Sounds like the 3-way valve with the black handle. Those have O-rings that can go bad over time. Simply removing the screws and inspecting, replacing, and/or re-lubing might help.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's the one. She sent around another repairman today to quote and he admitted he really didn't know why it wouldn't always prime. However, he did give me a set of 3 O-rings (1 large, 2 small) and lube to replace on that valve. He also tightened one ring which I hadn't realized was slightly loose. He thinks maybe even just those small things might be enough to get it priming - we shall see! I could also replace the screw rings (pump head union?) for a handful of $$$. Your other points and suggestions are noted - thank you and everybody else.
 
Sorry, another question. In the earlier picture you can see two black screw rings connecting the pump to the plumbing (one on top, one on the end). If I were to replace those, do I need to re-plumb a short section of pipe? Without dismantling it, I'm trying to think how the rings would work - they must be attached to either the pump or the pipe? I'm then concerned it wouldn't be as simple as that because the existing pipe already has two connectors between the pump and the 3-way valve, so that would need to be replaced as well! Domino effect.
 
Geoff, more than likely you'll see something like the items below. One part is glued to the PVC pipe approaching the pump, while the other fitting attaches to the pump inlet/outlet itself:
Union.jpg
If you replace that existing union, you'll end-up replacing a small amount of pipe as well since the old one(s) are glued as well.
 

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Geoff:

One thing you need to understand about replacing the pump is that many of the lowest cost options are unavailable to you. California requires at least a two speed pump. Most California utility providers have rebate programs for VS pumps.
 
On that three-way valve in the front on the body, there used to be a grease cup, over time they break off and leave a short piece still threaded into the valve. I can't see for sure from the picture but if there's a threaded indentation this could be the source of the air. You can check by starting pump and putting your finger over it
 
Sweeps vs regular 90s in California.

California has specific requirements for pools regarding energy savings. These are found in Title 24, part 6 of the California Code of Regulations. Sections 10- 110.4 and 10-150 p cover pools and spas.

10-150 (p )(2) does require sweep 90s or elbows that have a presure drop of less than the presure drop in 30 diameters of straight pipe.

The reality is that the difference in efficiency is almost nothing in the real world, you are not getting a permit for the work, you don't have a contractor's license and no building inspector I know would cite you for this. Plus you generally can't buy sweeps at HD or Lowes, you have to go to a plumbing house.
 
I replaced the O-rings in the 3-way valve but the existing ones seemed fine though.

It seems that to replace the screw ring means cutting in the vertical returns from the pool (horizontal red lines in the picture). The 6" section between the pump and the valve already has two connectors so the verticals are the next nearest point. To do that I'd replace the 3-way valve as well, and (if I understand correctly) should install unions at those cut lines. You can just see the crack at the green arrow.

As for the sweeps, without underground modification I don't have a hope of getting them to fit!

It looks like a variable speed pump would be around $800 (and upwards), albeit softened with a $200 rebate from the electricity co, plus energy savings through the year. However, what controls the speed? Do I need a new control box?

One bonus out of this is that the landlady has offered to let me "be the pool guy" and save $85 on the monthly rent! We have an above ground hot tub which I've been maintaining and balancing for a couple of years so it should be straightforward - different chemicals and levels but same principles.

20170225_104834.jpg

Thanks again everybody.
 
Couple options ... you could cut everything away and start from scratch (PVC & pump); or .... replace the pump only which would at the same time require you replace the damaged black pipe/pump fitting (screw thing) to the pump. When doing that, it would be ideal to install a union between the 3-way and pump, however space might prevent that. I'd hate to see you cut more pipe than really needed if it appears to be okay. But by just replacing the pump and that fitting your priming issues may go away.

One other thought (to rule-out underground pipe issues), you could buy some PVC and connect it directly from the pump (inlet) to the pool (not the skimmer). Just point the PVC right into the water with nothing in the way - just like a big straw. So at some point, before digging, that may help you pinpoint (or eliminate) any potential bad areas underground.

As for the VSP, many of them have programmable features on the pump itself. If you look into some of the brands, you should see some options like that so you don't have to invest into a major controller system.
 
Failed to prime again twice, despite replacing the O-rings in the 3-way valve. I can hear hissing from the valve though I'm not convinced that that alone could be causing the priming issues. Landlady has given me the go-ahead to replace that section of pipe plumbing from the pump to the two vertical (per picture earlier), about $90. It may help a tiny amount but it would certainly be better with less leakage.

Potentially also replace the top connector, though again would need to cut away a couple of bends down the pipe because of existing connectors/bends. Probably no more than $20.

Big option is the pump but she is not keen on that at this stage.
 

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