New Plaster Start Up Bi-Carb - Last Leg

[Kouri]

Pool will be emptied on Monday and by Friday we will start refilling. I will be using the bi-carb pre-treat method with a 55-gallon modified rain barrel. We have the bi-carb, proper test kit, PoolMath, 8-gallons of muriatic acid, tested the rain barrel and read and re-read as many articles as possible. I have a few questions:

1. 6-hour start up lag -- under my control so is there a ideal wait time?

2. Other stuff to have on hand: comments?
(Sequestrant) Jack's Magic Magenta;
(Stabilizer) Clorox Pool & Spa 1004CLX;
(Calcium chloride) Clorox Pool & Spa 19005CLX Calcium Hardness Increaser.

3. Add empty bottles so hoses will float -- necessary?

Susan

 

[needsajet]

My answer will bump your thread (I'm no expert).

For #3, yes, you need to protect the finish from any sustained hard flow of water.

This is just me, but I think sequestrant is good insurance. Better to wait for an expert opinion.

I would use pool store calcium chloride as well because it's handy to get. I've also heard you can save a couple bucks with road de-icer. (there's threads with safe brands)

The only thing I see missing is a chlorine source. onBalance recommends dichlor or trichlor for FC, CYA and to help with pH control. Dichlor would probably be handiest. If it was me, I'd use chlorinating liguid, muriatic acid and powdered stabilizer, because the calculations are straightforward and leftovers are sure to be used up.

 

[pooldv]

Yes to floating the hose and put a washrag around it. Yes to stabilizer. Yes to sequestrant. What is the CH of your fill water?

I assume you've read this
A Bicarb Start-up guide for TFP members

More good stuff to read
The Bicarb Start-up and Why it Works
Ten Guidelines for Quality Pool Plaster

 

[bdavis466]

6 hours is the minimum wait time prior to filing. Once you do begin the fill, make sure it's continuous and as fast as possible. The barrel will significantly slow down the fill so if you are going to use it I would throw an extra hose or two directly in the pool.

You can use any chlorine source you want but I prefer trichlor since it's acidic, contains CYA and adds the chlorine very slowly. Hold off on adding the chlorine for 24-48 hours post fill.

Do not add calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate together. Make sure one is very well mixed and dissolved prior to adding the other.

 

[Kouri]

Yes to floating the hose and put a washrag around it. Yes to stabilizer. Yes to sequestrant. What is the CH of your fill water?

I assume you've read this
A Bicarb Start-up guide for TFP members

More good stuff to read
The Bicarb Start-up and Why it Works
Ten Guidelines for Quality Pool Plaster

CH 100 -- I'll use PoolMath and will add chemicals as the program recommends in conjunction with mfgs instruction (warranty). I had not read the Ten Guidelines and will talk with the installer when he lays the Lightstream Glass today which must cure for a day. I did background work before choosing the plasterer and they have a great reputation -- in fact, the losing company wanted to know who I had chosen and said "I'm glad you chose them and you'll get a good plaster job." They have been open and interested in the bi-carb method and flexible on installing the glass tile and meeting my schedule. Pool is now empty so let's hope I've chosen well -- fill should start sometime Friday/Saturday. I will be here for entire process -- taking pictures, watching and asking questions.

 

[Kouri]

6 hours is the minimum wait time prior to filing. Once you do begin the fill, make sure it's continuous and as fast as possible. The barrel will significantly slow down the fill so if you are going to use it I would throw an extra hose or two directly in the pool.

You can use any chlorine source you want but I prefer trichlor since it's acidic, contains CYA and adds the chlorine very slowly. Hold off on adding the chlorine for 24-48 hours post fill.

Do not add calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate together. Make sure one is very well mixed and dissolved prior to adding the other.

I'm surprised by the suggestion of an extra hose since I thought idea was the treat the water to make it more plaster friendly. It will mix with the bi-carb already in the pool I realize.

Our barrel has three hoses and doesn't quite keep up with the fill rate. My plan is to add bi-carb to barrel and fill pool. After testing filled pool, follow PoolMath but no chlorine until mfg guidance of day 3: "Pre-diluted chlorine." Thanks to all the reading I've done here, I did buy trichlor. The mfgs guidelines don't differ much from the bi-carb method except for the hugely different Step 1.

 

[pooldv]

You'll want to get the CH up to 250 ppm. With 100 CH fill water and lots of rain in FL keeping your CH up could be a challenge. Might want to find a good source for deicer, also not widely available in FL.

CH - Calcium Hardness
Calcium hardness can be raised with calcium chloride or calcium chloride dihydrate. They are available in some areas as Peladow, Dowflake, Tetra Flake, or Tetra 94, often sold as a deicer by hardware stores, and some big box stores, in colder climates. Pool stores will carry either calcium chloride or calcium chloride dihydrate under a variety of names, including Hardness Plus, Balance Pak 300, Calcium Hardness Increaser, etc. Calcium products should be spread across the surface of the deep end of the pool.

 

[Kouri]

Pool store gave me CH 100, TF Kit 125. I have hth calcium hardness increaser (calcium chloride) -- by package guidance enough to get me to 250. In my MA house I have de-icer but no pool -- go figure!

Still need to purchase stabilizer and will add extra hose as Brian suggested. Plaster now scheduled for Sunday due to rain today.

 

[Kouri]

PB placed glass mosaics today and discussed the bi-carb start-up system. To re-cap he said that adding the bi-carb to the house water (8.7) will raise the pH resulting in more muriatic acid needed. He felt that bi-carb technique is aimed toward marcite and not the exposed quartz aggregate they are using. Their process is to wash the finish with water until smooth and then acid wash. Initially he was adamantly opposed but after reading the OnBalance Method sheet he was open to it. In the end, he was ok with the 6-hours and said it's up to me how to proceed. He was impressed that I knew what a weir is!

Thoughts?

 

[bdavis466]

When do they acid wash the pool? Usually they come the next day to do it. If that's the case then filling can begin immediately.

Quartz really isn't effected by water chemistry but your surface is still using plaster as a binder which will definitely benefit from the bicarb process.

 

[Kouri]

The impression I got was they water wash then acid wash afterward although he did not specifically say. I'll say this for him: unlike anyone else here he heard of this system and was not so closed minded about it.

 

[needsajet]

Really glad to hear that your PB is on board Maybe he read about it or heard about it somewhere in the past, and maybe you're a smart presenter!

 

[Kouri]

When do they acid wash the pool? Usually they come the next day to do it. If that's the case then filling can begin immediately.

Quartz really isn't effected by water chemistry but your surface is still using plaster as a binder which will definitely benefit from the bicarb process.

PB said the finish would be completely hard when they finish. Assuming they water and acid wash same day, does 6-hour rule still apply?

 

[bdavis466]

No. The reason to wait is to prevent and eliminate plaster dust from forming. If they water wash and then acid wash, they are removing the the plaster dust for you. You should have little dust at all.

Knowing this, adjusting the water as the pool is filling will be of little benefit. I would abandon the barrel and just fill the pool - then proceed with the bicarb process if you so choose. Your pool will have already been exposed to straight acid so the short term exposure to slightly aggressive water while filling will have little to no impact.

 

[Kouri]

No. The reason to wait is to prevent and eliminate plaster dust from forming. If they water wash and then acid wash, they are removing the the plaster dust for you. You should have little dust at all.

Knowing this, adjusting the water as the pool is filling will be of little benefit. I would abandon the barrel and just fill the pool - then proceed with the bicarb process if you so choose. Your pool will have already been exposed to straight acid so the short term exposure to slightly aggressive water while filling will have little to no impact.

Oh boo hoo -- I put soooo much effort into this! But I'm okay with that because I have learned so much about pools and I realize that my terminology was incorrect. On the other hand, when I told the PB that I was planning to use this technique they should have given me the information I got yesterday (one day before resurfacing).

One more question: given the above, why would I proceed with bi-carb? It is correct that the bi-carb will raise the pH which I will then have to lower with MA? The house water is 8.7 so I've got some lowering to do anyway. It seems there is no benefit -- agree?

 

[bdavis466]

High TA levels will put upward pressure on pH levels and this condition will be greatly exacerbated by aeration.

The bicarb start up is intended to give your plaster ideal water chemistry during the curing phase for longevity. You will no doubt go through lots of acid in the process but that comes with the territory.

 

[Kouri]

High TA levels will put upward pressure on pH levels and this condition will be greatly exacerbated by aeration.

The bicarb start up is intended to give your plaster ideal water chemistry during the curing phase for longevity. You will no doubt go through lots of acid in the process but that comes with the territory.

OK. So the finish goes on tomorrow AM and they plan to be done early afternoon. Brian, I know you are not a barrel fan in the first place so I'm conflicted on that issue. But -- I'll add the bi-carb either by broadcast method of barrel TBD and forego the 6-hour waiting time. Thanks for all the advise.

 

[Kouri]

Pool filled. pH 8.8; TA 370, CH 250. Adding MA, filter on, skimmer on. Very little plaster dust just mild cloudiness. Was crystal clear until filter put on. We also removed pop-up system and there was much burbling and bubbling when filter came on. Most of the cloudiness is near light and there are some bits of ? floating near the light.

The Lightstream Glass step markers and mosaics are beautiful. How'd we do?
Susan

 

[bdavis466]

How did you get that pH? Did you mean 7.8?

Do not add any more baking soda or calcium and if the pH is really that high you need to lower it to about 7.6.

 

[Kouri]

The pH was obtained with a meter. All baking soda already added, did not add calcium. I'm now completely confused about the bi-carb system but it's done. It seems to be well understood that bi-carb will raise pH and it did that. We added MA last night and will re-test once the sun rises.