New Owner Build-Live Music Capital of the World (Austin)

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kimkats said:
SWEET! The power of $1000 should pull him back to your job! Nice job!

Kim:kim:
Click to expand...

Thanks for keeping me sane Kim...I definitely needed some pep. The good news is plumber #2 is willing to install the equipment for $700. The bad news is he suggested I call a leak detection company...so I did...and they said they have no way of finding a 1psi/24hr leak and implied they wouldn't even consider that a leak. Hmm. So, my next step is to wait to see what the fix-a-leak does and if it's still leaking to put a stack on each pipe with pressure gauges to isolate the leak. This step is long over due in my opinion.
 
Foosman, I am following your thread... very awesome layout and design. Can't wait to see it finished.

Also wanted to pass on that I like your selections. We also went with a square cut, light colored travertine coping. We used travertine split-face for our wall, and Jules Rustic Blue Blend for our spotters on the steps. We finished ours with Quartzscapes refelections Aruba Blue plaster. Just put in today and really like the color selections. I hope you like yours too!
 
Foosman said:
Thanks for keeping me sane Kim...I definitely needed some pep. The good news is plumber #2 is willing to install the equipment for $700. The bad news is he suggested I call a leak detection company...so I did...and they said they have no way of finding a 1psi/24hr leak and implied they wouldn't even consider that a leak. Hmm. So, my next step is to wait to see what the fix-a-leak does and if it's still leaking to put a stack on each pipe with pressure gauges to isolate the leak. This step is long over due in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I feel your pain. Been there before.


If another plumber would do just the pad for $700, then fixing the leak may only be worth $300 to the original plumber. I would not be surprised if he bails. If it takes more than 1 day to find and fix, he is losing money. It may come down to if their name is worth more than their time.

I hope it works out.

If the leak detector company does not care to find it, it may not matter, or they don't want to or can't find such a small leak in a reasonable time (while on site).

Multiple gauges on each run may be your only chance.


Good luck.


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Yeah, 1psi delta over 24hrs is really tiny. It makes me think that it's more likely the manifold is leaking at one of spigots rather than some hairline crack.

What about the returns and other end points? Is everything sealed off in the pool? Bubblers?


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slpybeartx said:
Foosman, I am following your thread... very awesome layout and design. Can't wait to see it finished.

Also wanted to pass on that I like your selections. We also went with a square cut, light colored travertine coping. We used travertine split-face for our wall, and Jules Rustic Blue Blend for our spotters on the steps. We finished ours with Quartzscapes refelections Aruba Blue plaster. Just put in today and really like the color selections. I hope you like yours too!
Click to expand...
I somehow missed your thread, so just took a look. I really like how your raised walls turned out. The 2 different split face travertine colors looks great. We keep debating plaster, the latest thought is Wet Edge Satin Matrix Antigua.

- - - Updated - - -

JoyfulNoise said:
Yeah, 1psi delta over 24hrs is really tiny. It makes me think that it's more likely the manifold is leaking at one of spigots rather than some hairline crack.

What about the returns and other end points? Is everything sealed off in the pool? Bubblers?

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Click to expand...
I've quadruple checked the end points. Everything is capped off and no water present. I checked the spigot, but at the manifold there is likely air, so I probably won't see any water. I took soapy water in a spray bottle to the base of gauge. I'm going to try the soapy water all around the manifold and spigots and focus my efforts there.
 
Yep, use soapy water 1:1 dish soap and water but don't spray it as that will make bubbles and make it hard to see. Just pour it all over the spigots, pressure gauges and manifold connection points.


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Tough day today in Owner Build land. I'm bringing in a new plumber. My plumber came as a package deal as his brother lined up the dig, did the rebar and overall has been a big help. He was angry and I explained there were several minor issues along the way and the recent lack of urgency to resolve this leak along with putting fix a leak (which by the way did not fix the leak) has caused me to lose confidence. His position was that the pool held pressure (that is true, it held pressure for a month) and he was trying to avoid charging me more money to break apart the manifold and pressurize each line. Funny how he didn't return my calls or texts for 3 days and he's angry with me. Pretty much zero communication over the last 2 weeks and the suspect pressure gauge was never replaced. I'm pretty certain their next move would be to dump another bottle of fix a leak in. He asked for half of the $1K hold back claiming the equipment install was only worth $500 and I shouldn't have held back $1K. We agreed on $300 as the new plumber is doing the equipment install for $700.
 
Foosman said:
Tough day today in Owner Build land. I'm bringing in a new plumber. My plumber came as a package deal as his brother lined up the dig, did the rebar and overall has been a big help. He was angry and I explained there were several minor issues along the way and the recent lack of urgency to resolve this leak along with putting fix a leak (which by the way did not fix the leak) has caused me to lose confidence. His position was that the pool held pressure (that is true, it held pressure for a month) and he was trying to avoid charging me more money to break apart the manifold and pressurize each line. Funny how he didn't return my calls or texts for 3 days and he's angry with me. Pretty much zero communication over the last 2 weeks and the suspect pressure gauge was never replaced. I'm pretty certain their next move would be to dump another bottle of fix a leak in. He asked for half of the $1K hold back claiming the equipment install was only worth $500 and I shouldn't have held back $1K. We agreed on $300 as the new plumber is doing the equipment install for $700.
Click to expand...

Don't pay him anything until the other plumber is done. You have the right to only pay the original contractor the difference between what you owe him and what the new guy charges. Until the new guy is finished you don't know for sure what the total is. The new guy may charge $700 for the pad, but if anything else comes up or you need to still fix that leak, that $300 can be used for that. Wait until the second guy is done and you are happy!


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Bummer, but bravo standing your ground and getting what you want. Far too many people let themselves be walked all over by contractors that promise the moon but deliver sub-standard results and make excuses. I'm sure it wasn't a pleasant conversation.

I hope the new guy works out better.


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Foosman said:
Tough day today in Owner Build land. I'm bringing in a new plumber. My plumber came as a package deal as his brother lined up the dig, did the rebar and overall has been a big help. He was angry and I explained there were several minor issues along the way and the recent lack of urgency to resolve this leak along with putting fix a leak (which by the way did not fix the leak) has caused me to lose confidence. His position was that the pool held pressure (that is true, it held pressure for a month) and he was trying to avoid charging me more money to break apart the manifold and pressurize each line. Funny how he didn't return my calls or texts for 3 days and he's angry with me. Pretty much zero communication over the last 2 weeks and the suspect pressure gauge was never replaced. I'm pretty certain their next move would be to dump another bottle of fix a leak in. He asked for half of the $1K hold back claiming the equipment install was only worth $500 and I shouldn't have held back $1K. We agreed on $300 as the new plumber is doing the equipment install for $700.
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Question: if it held pressure just fine for a month, didn't the plumber do his job? Isn't it most likely that one of the other guys like the cheap labor that work on the patio actually nicked a pipe while they were working?

Not defending the fact that they weren't very responsive for you, but I'm wondering if it stands to reason here that the plumbers work was actually tested and done well? Is the plumber responsible for everything that happens to your lines after he's done and his work was proven?

Full disclosure, everyone: these are the guys that I used on my build.
 
Ramdough said:
Don't pay him anything until the other plumber is done. You have the right to only pay the original contractor the difference between what you owe him and what the new guy charges. Until the new guy is finished you don't know for sure what the total is. The new guy may charge $700 for the pad, but if anything else comes up or you need to still fix that leak, that $300 can be used for that. Wait until the second guy is done and you are happy!


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Click to expand...

For me it's worth the $300 versus worrying about a lien. If I knew he plumbed a leak then it would be different. I'll drag my feet a bit to try to find the leak. He's been out several times for no charge like when the patio guys broke a pipe and the mason removed pipe caps to get the travertine in...so it's a bit of a give and take situation.


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Foosman said:
For me it's worth the $300 versus worrying about a lien. If I knew he plumbed a leak then it would be different. I'll drag my feet a bit to try to find the leak. He's been out several times for no charge like when the patio guys broke a pipe and the mason removed pipe caps to get the travertine in...so it's a bit of a give and take situation.


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Click to expand...

That is fair. Sounds like you mitigated the situation. Can't wait for the final pictures!


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And5555 said:
Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Question: if it held pressure just fine for a month, didn't the plumber do his job? Isn't it most likely that one of the other guys like the cheap labor that work on the patio actually nicked a pipe while they were working?

Not defending the fact that they weren't very responsive for you, but I'm wondering if it stands to reason here that the plumbers work was actually tested and done well? Is the plumber responsible for everything that happens to your lines after he's done and his work was proven?

Full disclosure, everyone: these are the guys that I used on my build.
Click to expand...

I was being generous with a month. The weather turned cold and I had to let the pressure out, then pipes were uncapped by the mason and it took at least a month to get them recapped. I was thinking that if it held pressure for a day then all was good, so honestly was not paying much attention. What I realized was that the day we started the patio the pressure was at 12psi, before any work started. It is absolutely possible that the mason damaged a pipe, a pipe froze, etc. Overall, the job looks very clean. The plumber is capable of excellent work and is very skilled. There are a few more details that I didn't mention:
1) Pipes were not put under pressure prior to the gunite shoot. We explicitly discussed this. I called the day before gunite in a panic and was told: "Don't worry, you are fine". Hmm, so first clue that I might not be getting what I bargained for.
2) In a large area the pipes were run across the ground and not under ground. Literally laid right on top of the grass. I am going to have to raise the yard up in that area to actually bury the pipes. The damage to the pipe during patio work largely was because of this. For the turn downs, they had to tunnel under about 7 pipes spread across about an 8' area weaving around pipes. Every contractor who has stepped in my back yard has commented about these pipes. When he laid these pipes I asked what am I supposed to do with pipes running above ground across my yard and got a "oh well, we thought there would be concrete over them". Do I make them re-do the pipes...nah, let it slide.
3) When the pipe was damaged, rather than taking the extra time to cut out the pipe and do a good fix or ask me to move sand bags, he performed an inside patch between the existing cracked pipes. This leaked badly immediately after I pressurized it later that day. I appreciate that they came out to patch this under the gentlemen's agreement among contractors, but I also would have paid. I didn't think the sandbags were a problem and had these moved the following day and a proper repair was done. Starting to think they aren't all that invested in this pool being a success.
4) Lack of communication and lack of response has been a huge problem this last month. Pool building has cranked up, I understand that. It would routinely take 3 days to get a text or phone call back, that's okay. I can deal with the delays...summer is still a ways out, but then I had a patio guy who cancelled a pour calling me daily for a week asking me for an update with limited responses back and no idea if they were coming to help or not, when I finally cracked and starting shopping for a new plumber. These are nice guys and have overall been more helpful than I could have imagined. They also did a lot of stuff that I bit my tongue on. It's likely the plumbing leak is in the gauge that he was supposed to change out long ago, but never did, so who knows. What I do know is that fix a leak is not the answer and that was the last straw.
 
Foosman said:
I was being generous with a month. The weather turned cold and I had to let the pressure out, then pipes were uncapped by the mason and it took at least a month to get them recapped. I was thinking that if it held pressure for a day then all was good, so honestly was not paying much attention. What I realized was that the day we started the patio the pressure was at 12psi, before any work started. It is absolutely possible that the mason damaged a pipe, a pipe froze, etc. Overall, the job looks very clean. The plumber is capable of excellent work and is very skilled. There are a few more details that I didn't mention:
1) Pipes were not put under pressure prior to the gunite shoot. We explicitly discussed this. I called the day before gunite in a panic and was told: "Don't worry, you are fine". Hmm, so first clue that I might not be getting what I bargained for.
2) In a large area the pipes were run across the ground and not under ground. Literally laid right on top of the grass. I am going to have to raise the yard up in that area to actually bury the pipes. The damage to the pipe during patio work largely was because of this. For the turn downs, they had to tunnel under about 7 pipes spread across about an 8' area weaving around pipes. Every contractor who has stepped in my back yard has commented about these pipes. When he laid these pipes I asked what am I supposed to do with pipes running above ground across my yard and got a "oh well, we thought there would be concrete over them". Do I make them re-do the pipes...nah, let it slide.
3) When the pipe was damaged, rather than taking the extra time to cut out the pipe and do a good fix or ask me to move sand bags, he performed an inside patch between the existing cracked pipes. This leaked badly immediately after I pressurized it later that day. I appreciate that they came out to patch this under the gentlemen's agreement among contractors, but I also would have paid. I didn't think the sandbags were a problem and had these moved the following day and a proper repair was done. Starting to think they aren't all that invested in this pool being a success.
4) Lack of communication and lack of response has been a huge problem this last month. Pool building has cranked up, I understand that. It would routinely take 3 days to get a text or phone call back, that's okay. I can deal with the delays...summer is still a ways out, but then I had a patio guy who cancelled a pour calling me daily for a week asking me for an update with limited responses back and no idea if they were coming to help or not, when I finally cracked and starting shopping for a new plumber. These are nice guys and have overall been more helpful than I could have imagined. They also did a lot of stuff that I bit my tongue on. It's likely the plumbing leak is in the gauge that he was supposed to change out long ago, but never did, so who knows. What I do know is that fix a leak is not the answer and that was the last straw.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the additional context. That does sound a bit rough. The pipes on the ground seems particularly unacceptable.

You're probably right in that the plumber just didn't feel very invested in this pool. That's unfortunate. I don't think that he would do shoddy work, so you should be fine long-term for your pool, but I can totally understand why you were fed up with him.

I remember during my build forgetting to regularly check on pressure at various intervals. It was so beneficial when the electricians day laborer hacked one of the lines with a pick axe as it was very obvious when water shot into the air. I will add a note to the other owner builder thread that's starting to give them that hint.
 
The new plumber came out today. They pressurized all 11 pipes individually and took the pressure up to 40psi. I got home from work and one of the pipes was down to 34psi. Ding...ding...ding, we have a winner. One of the skimmers is leaking. There is no water in the skimmer where the skimmer drain is plugged up, but I'm still thinking this is the most likely culprit. I spent a couple hours uncovering the line from the pad to the pool where there are unions and I'm not seeing anything leaking. One thing I noticed during the installation was the Pentair Bermuda installation guide called out using an ABS to PVC glue. I did not see an ABS to PVC glue being used, but also was not around the whole time. I used the same skimmers as And5555 and same plumber and didn't want to micro-manage these guys, but now I'm a little worried.
 
What is the skimmer hole plugged with? Is it something you can remove and replug?


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