pebbletec stained

[outdoorsgal]

thanku Proavia, As for CSI, I saw it being discussed on pool school, but can't figure out how to test for it. I'm missing something because I don't see any directions for CSI in my test kit. I'll keep looking around for the answer to this.

As for dealing with the scaling, stains, and in-floor, because I have a time line to abide by due to a warranty, I have been working on these issues as well and I'm already to the point where I have an email drafted that I will be sending to the owner of the pb tonight to rectify the situation. Regarding the in-floor we've had pb techs come out several times giving me different answers and inaccurate information and hired an independent guy to do a hydraulics study. He's coorinated with Hayward and with Paramount and all agree I need a larger pump among other things. Something as simple as the skimmer door missing Styrofoam was missed by the pb tech and dismissed as they said there is Styrofoam built inside the door. No it's not. The scaling is my fault, but the staining from the dirt would have never happened if I didn't continuously brush only the sides and not the floor so i could show the techs the dirt. I am debating on requesting that the pb does an acid wash and if there are any thoughts on this before I send the letter that'd be great. Is there a tfp way to clean dirt stains rather than acid wash? from what I read about scaling in pool school, it seems that we'll need to acid wash to get rid of it. it's not that bad and doesn't bother me too much, but it's something I want to consider asking for since they have been so negligent about helping us rectify this problem which has caused us so much more pool maintenance and now staining....

Now, on to look further into CSI and put #s into pool math and I'll be reporting back in a bit. thx!!

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[twinkiesmommy2009]

With a new plaster it won't take too long. I'd leave my bubblers on for an hour or so and then turn them on again for a little while tomorrow also if your pH is still low. I'm not one of the experts though. Mine rises quite fast.


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[outdoorsgal]

With a new plaster it won't take too long. I'd leave my bubblers on for an hour or so and then turn them on again for a little while tomorrow also if your pH is still low. I'm not one of the experts though. Mine rises quite fast.]

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twinkiesmommy, thanku! i've had them on for a couple of hrs and don't mind at all since I'd rather hear that than the pump. The hydraulics guy said a bigger pump will be quieter, so that'll be nice. so, when u've done this procedure, then once it hits 7.8/8.0 you use poolmath to lower it quickly to 7.0/7.2 or do you do it slowly? thx for your help!

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Proavia, I see now that to get the CSI #s it's right on poolmath. There's me needing to slow down again!
Going from memory, my salt is at 3800. It could be lower and I can double check tomorrow. With that number and the other #s given lasts time it says that my CSI is .62 and it should be -0.58. i'll reread what to do with that, now...

 

[outdoorsgal]

I'm getting it now. I have to read two or 3 times sometimes as I go through this process and may be slower than some at getting it, so I appreciate your help! It's confusing but at the same time I'm learning and it's empowering at the same time. I changed the numbers in pool math and saw what happens to CSI. I think I know what I need to do now. Once I sit down I'll know which things I need to remeasure, but I'm thinking my next steps are to daily measure pH, TA, and look at CSI for a while until CSI is where it needs to be? It's going to take me a while to get to Walmart, so should I have adding more stabilizer on the list for the near future also? thx!!

 

[outdoorsgal]

With a new plaster it won't take too long. I'd leave my bubblers on for an hour or so and then turn them on again for a little while tomorrow also if your pH is still low. I'm not one of the experts though. Mine rises quite fast.


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BTW, i'm sorry to hear that. I hate to have to add acid every other day. doesn't say anything about salt water in your signature, either. i feel like we go through tons of acid! u have 3 sheers and 3 bubblers, though. we just have one bubbler, but 3 kids. haha

 

[twinkiesmommy2009]

twinkiesmommy, thanku! i've had them on for a couple of hrs and don't mind at all since I'd rather hear that than the pump. The hydraulics guy said a bigger pump will be quieter, so that'll be nice. so, when u've done this procedure, then once it hits 7.8/8.0 you use poolmath to lower it quickly to 7.0/7.2 or do you do it slowly? thx for your help!

You'll be able to add the acid all at once but it will take awhile to filter through the pool and lower the levels. Just get into a habit of testing everyday until you get a good handle on the chemistry.

BTW, i'm sorry to hear that. I hate to have to add acid every other day. doesn't say anything about salt water in your signature, either. i feel like we go through tons of acid! u have 3 sheers and 3 bubblers, though. we just have one bubbler, but 3 kids. haha

We do have an SWG. The rise seems to have slowed a little since we got the salt. We have a 14k gallon pool and it seems I add about a quart of acid every other day or two. Before it was nearly every day. I let it get to 8 and then drop it to 7.4 so I don't go down to 7.2 anymore. This also lowers TA, so when it gets below 80, you have to add the baking soda to raise it to 120 or so and then start the process over again. Pool Math will be your best friend because it tells you everything you need to do and even what will happen if you do xyz. It just takes a little playing in it to get the hang of it. You'll get it eventually. It wasn't too long ago that I was learning it all like you. I'm definitely not one of the experts but I feel like I've got a handle on it now. Hopefully one of the experts will come along and correct me if I've given you any bad advice but if you follow Pool Math you can't go wrong!


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[outdoorsgal]

twinkiesmommy, I always heard salt pools require more acid, so that's interesting, or maybe it's not too surprising because I've heard a lot of things.
thx for the support and for your experience. I never realized how much acid a pool needs. Do you add just as much in the winter? I didn't think with out hard water, that I'd ever need baking soda.

 

[proavia]

As you've figured out, PoolMath automatically calculates the CSI.

CSI should be between 0.00 and -0.30 to deter scaling. Careful pH and TA management will help you keep it in that range.

You don't need baking soda - that will RAISE the TA.

A pool with a SWCG might raise the pH a little faster do to aeration in the cell, but maintaining a lower TA will slow that rise down some.

To lower yout TA:
Lower pH to 7.2
Run pump on your normal schedule
Leave bubbler on to help aerate and raise pH
Measure pH and TA daily to see how they both react
When pH gets in the 7.6-7.8 range, lower it again to 7.2
Keep this up until TA gets to 60-70 range
Monitor all levels and adjust to keep CSI in the range I listed
____________________

In a previous post, you said you can take blunt - so here i go again:

1: Trying to do too many things at once hasn't served you well in the past.

2: Try not to make this process more difficult than it needs to be. As others have said on this forum: "You're not making rocket fuel, it's just pool water."

 

[pooldv]

Pebble Tec expects you to manage your CSI, saturation index, as well. It should have been included in the start up documents they would have sent when you registered your warranty. In fact, not managing your CSI will result in multiple potential issues that they specifically will not cover under warranty such as scaling and etching.

More here, Pool Care Instructions Pebble Tec
And here, Product Registration Pebble Tec

Did you see this yet? Pool School - Calcium Scaling

 

[twinkiesmommy2009]

I never realized how much acid a pool needs. Do you add just as much in the winter? I didn't think with out hard water, that I'd ever need baking soda.

I understand the feeling. It was shocking how much acid was needed, especially at first. I haven't had a winter yet, so I can't help you at all there. We can figure it out together from the experts here!

You don't need baking soda - that will RAISE the TA.

She doesn't need baking soda now but she very well could later. I was referring to the cycle. Adding the MA regularly to lower the pH definitely lowers TA and to keep both at optimal range is quite the balance. My fill water TA was 170 and yet through the additions of MA it's dropped below 80 at least 3 times in the last 45 days, requiring the addition of baking soda, to bring it back to 120 and start over again. I'm keeping all of my levels in range to support the plaster as best I can. Is that not correct?

This also lowers TA, so when it gets below 80, you have to add the baking soda to raise it to 120 or so and then start the process over again.

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[proavia]

TM - there is no reason to add baking soda just because your TA gets to 80. Many of us run TA as low as 50. I think it's just a matter of maintaining pH at the proper level to balance out the lower TA. This is where the CSI number comes in.

I guess it may have been better to add that you don't need baking soda unless the TA gets too low - lower than around 50 in my case. And then add only enough to go about 10 above your goal - so if your goal is 60, add enough to get to 70. This will provide a little cushion as the TA will go down with addition of MA.

Many people don't need to worry much about the CSI - just maintain the other levels in range and CSI will take care of itself. But with high CH fill water and evaporation, CH will continue to rise. I did a complete drain/refill 18 months ago and my CH is now 725 in this low humidity, hot desert. The OP lives within 20 miles of me, also has high CH fill water and lots of evaporation.

With a lower TA your pH will not rise as fast. By raising your TA to 120 using baking soda, you are in a never ending cycle of lowering TA, adding baking soda to raise it, using MA to now lower TA, etc. You wind up chasing your tail just to maintain an arbitrary number.

Usually, with a lower TA, you can maintain a slightly higher pH to offset the lower TA. Of course, still put all numbers into PoolMath and see what the results are.

Another thing that will help with rising pH is reducing aeration to a minimum. While you should cycle bubblers and water features at least every few days, don't run them just because - unless you're outside actually enjoying them. Adjust your spa spill over to a minimum - to maintain chemical balance in the spa. Of course, run the SWCG to maintain your chlorine where it needs to be.

 

[twinkiesmommy2009]

I told you I wasn't one of the experts outdoorsgal!

TM - there is no reason to add baking soda just because your TA gets to 80. Many of us run TA as low as 50. I think it's just a matter of maintaining pH at the proper level to balance out the lower TA. This is where the CSI number comes in.

I guess it may have been better to add that you don't need baking soda unless the TA gets too low - lower than around 50 in my case. And then add only enough to go about 10 above your goal - so if your goal is 60, add enough to get to 70. This will provide a little cushion as the TA will go down with addition of MA.

Many people don't need to worry much about the CSI - just maintain the other levels in range and CSI will take care of itself. But with high CH fill water and evaporation, CH will continue to rise. I did a complete drain/refill 18 months ago and my CH is now 725 in this low humidity, hot desert. The OP lives within 20 miles of me, also has high CH fill water and lots of evaporation.

With a lower TA your pH will not rise as fast. By raising your TA to 120 using baking soda, you are in a never ending cycle of lowering TA, adding baking soda to raise it, using MA to now lower TA, etc. You wind up chasing your tail just to maintain an arbitrary number.

Usually, with a lower TA, you can maintain a slightly higher pH to offset the lower TA. Of course, still put all numbers into PoolMath and see what the results are.

Another thing that will help with rising pH is reducing aeration to a minimum. While you should cycle bubblers and water features at least every few days, don't run them just because - unless you're outside actually enjoying them. Adjust your spa spill over to a minimum - to maintain chemical balance in the spa. Of course, run the SWCG to maintain your chlorine where it needs to be.

Thanks proavia! I was doing it based on the recommendations from my semi educated PB, the Wet Edge care instructions, and the TFP recommendations. Wet Edge says that TA should be maintained between 80-120 at all times and TFP literature says ideal is 80. When I dropped below 80, my PB added baking soda (while he was still in charge) and told me I shouldn't let it stay below 80. That seemed to jive with what Wet Edge and TFP research said. I understand environmental and location differences though! We run all of the water features once per day for 15 minutes on a schedule as I like to push fresh chlorinated water through them but otherwise they only run when in use.

I love learning new things and now I won't stress about my TA unless my CSI gets borderline. Thanks!



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[proavia]

TM

I wouldn't call myself an expert - but thanks for the vote of confidence. While I think I have a good understanding of the concepts, I still have a lot to learn. And I'll always defer to the experts here.

As far as your TA number is concerned.... remember, your PB and Wet Edge hold the warranty card. It's up to you to decide whether you follow their guidelines or not.

 

[outdoorsgal]

I'm falling asleep so will respond more later, but for now, I checked the pH today and it's 7.5. Kids went in the pool tonight and I ran the bubbler 1/2 hr or so. I rarely run the bubbler. Why is it that you say we should run it every few days? R we going too slow or do we need to get it back to 7.8/8 faster? thx!

 

[proavia]

So your pH sometime today was 7.5 ..... What was the TA?

How many hours a day is the pump running? At what rpm?

The more you run water features the faster the pH will rise - and you will be able to lower it and the TA with an addition of MA. It's up to you as to how fast you want to lower the TA. But without a daily TA number you have no idea of the TA value and how your present regime is going.

Running bubblers, etc several times weekly allows water exchange in the plumbing. Not sure if it's absolutely necessary or not. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

 

[twinkiesmommy2009]

So your pH sometime today was 7.5 ..... What was the TA?

How many hours a day is the pump running? At what rpm?

The more you run water features the faster the pH will rise - and you will be able to lower it and the TA with an addition of MA. It's up to you as to how fast you want to lower the TA. But without a daily TA number you have no idea of the TA value and how your present regime is going.

Running bubblers, etc several times weekly allows water exchange in the plumbing. Not sure if it's absolutely necessary or not. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

Running the bubblers every few days keeps fresh chlorinated water in your pipes and can help prevent locations where algae can try to grow. This is important. With new plaster your pH will rise pretty fast on its own. I think every time you test you should be checking pH, TA, and FC. I test CH and CYA once a week. 7.5 is good for swimming. Kids splashing and bubblers going will all help pH rise - sometimes by the next day so you don't have to worry about doing it faster really. Just be diligent, test regularly, and check Pool Math.


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[outdoorsgal]

proavia and twinkiesmom, thanks for the info. we just got in from a somewhat impromtu trip out of town, so i haven't been on the forum. Also, I won the in-floor battle as I see it. PB is coming to install a larger pump on Wed and new skimmer Weir along with calibrating it according to the recommendations from the gentleman I hired who was referred to me on this site. It's been over a year long struggle and the pool is already looking much better and I am thrilled as it will finally work much better after this week. Paramount is also coming out by the end of the week and the owner/pb. It's been very time consuming and frustrating, now there are a couple of stains (in the corner and around the drain) that would not have been there if I hadn't left dirt to continue to show the pool company but at least they are going to fix the problem now that I hired an independent guy. This is a big deal and I think what i need to do for this week is maintain the pool to where they want to see it as they are spending a lot of money and I may decided to ask for them to acid wash the pool to get the stains off. also, i have been washing the tiles with acid to get it cleaned up and i have a couple more days to do that and I want to keep the pH around 7.6 for pb so if i'm adding acid to clean tiles it can quickly increase too fast. I actually decreased it tonight when i got home and it was up to 8.2 again. so, starting end of the week i'll seriously start with the regimen that is being recommended to me here. thx so much!

 

[outdoorsgal]

iesmommy, all great points. thx!

proavia, i need to get back to u on how many hrs the pump is running and rpms after the new pump is installed Wed. as it'll change.

I couldn't help myself but to play with the pH a bit more today as i wanted to clean up the tiles anyway, before pb comes out and i figured i could leave the bubbler on longer if needed, having 2 days to get the pH up. But I didn't pour the acid in all at once since i seem to never have long enough to finish something i found a couple of times 3-4 hrs separated from each other where i was able to get in the pool and clean tile with acid after my original trial at doing it out of the pool on my knees in the morn. with that, even though i used poolmath it never got quite down to 7.2. It seemed like 7.3/4. this may be a bit mixed up as earlier in the day my TA was 60 (much less than last week. Is this possible considering I only lowered pH to 7.2 and raised it once?) I think my testing was done pretty well.
water temp 84 (too chilly for me)
FC 9
CSI= -0.07. doesn't seem possible that i cleaned up the pool so quickly. i'll keep tracking these numbers and watching. i think i am getting this part much better! thx!!

now, with that, on a cloudy day like today I am disappointed with how the pool looks at far as scaling and possible problems done when curing. It's too bad I didn't take the job of the pool from the beginning (hubbie didn't brush as much as he was supposed to while pool curing or ever after that). I had also read somewhere here that salt wasn't supposed to be put into pool right away. our pb turned on the salt chlorinator right away. i'll have to consider an acid wash, or is it possible some of the scale might reverse itself slighty if i am on top of balancing the water...? I started a thread on pH controllers since I just heard of them and now that i am understanding the importance of pH and am more convinced of balancing a pool I want to be on top of the pH and having it automated seems like it could be very helpful especially for vacays.

 

[pooldv]

The scale can be dissolved back into the water by keeping your CSI -0.8 to -0.9 and brushing. This will take some time but will not damage or shorten the life of your plaster like and acid wash can. More here, Pool School - Calcium Scaling

Another option is an acid bath which is also much less aggressive than an acid wash. More here, The Zero Alkalinity Acid Treatment

 

[outdoorsgal]

The scale can be dissolved back into the water by keeping your CSI -0.8 to -0.9 and brushing. This will take some time but will not damage or shorten the life of your plaster like and acid wash can. More here, Pool School - Calcium Scaling

Another option is an acid bath which is also much less aggressive than an acid wash. More here, The Zero Alkalinity Acid Treatment

The last sentence from the first link you sent me is what I've had in mind regarding the need to acid wash whether now or later: "The only reliable solution for removing calcium scaling is a full drain and acid wash." The second link is something i'm going to need to read over again when i have more time later. very confusing. that's scary to me to add 4 gallons of acid to my pool. i do have pitting, too, btw. i want to try to understand this subject more before pb owner comes out by the end of the week, so any more info would be great! sounds like if it were your pool you wouldn't do an acid wash? a couple of other stains came out so i wonder if the dirt stains will, too. i had a weed that made stains on my marbella, too, land in the pool and stain the bottom, but that went away within days. now is when i have time to ask the pb for what i want, so now's the time for me to understand what that should be. they gave me incorrect info on how to care for my pool saying i only needed to check chlorine and pH once a week and brush once a week... now they are giving me what they should've in the beginning after i paid an independent person to do a hydraulics study. in the meantime there was plenty of time and money that went into trying to keep the dirt out and then letting it sit while tech after tech came to the house to give me incorrect info...

anyway, my guess from being on this site and from dealing with my pb in different areas (we even had to teach them about the correct electric code along this process and have them put in an outlet in the spot the law demands...), I don't think the pb would agree with tfp standards, so i think i'll try to drop the FC to 3 or so and keep pH around 7.6/8. Pebble guy was also interested in alkalinity but the Pb never taught us about alkalinity and i'm limited in getting that to where it needs to be in i'm also trying to keep pH where they want it. but for today here are my numbers:

1:30p
temp 87
FC=9 (i turned cell down to 15% but with the clouds today it might still stay high).
TA= 60
pH = 7/5
CSI= -.5

if it weren't for the pb coming what i think i'd do is raise the pH faster with the bubbler and then lower it again, add stabilizer. am i on track? thx!