10 Day Old IC-40 Just Went Dark

[Brushman]

I think "putting a little more toque on the nut" is exactly what my pool equipment has been doing to me for the last three weeks.

 

[Brushman]

The o-rings that sit in the groove have a tendency to roll out of the groove just enough to cause a leak. Lube the groove liberally and roll the o-ring into it, pressing it into place making sure it’s fully seated. Then lube the outward facing side while pressing it into the groove. It can take some patience, I’ve have many that have made my head want to explode.

Your careful words and practice make clear that I was missing a step, or at least short-changing one. I cleaned the groove. I lubed the o-ring generously. But I did not pre-lube, have likely never pre-lubed, the channel itself. I always relied on the well lubed o-ring to do that for me but that's not quite the same thing. Thanks again.

 

[newdude]

Also be mindful of overtightening. It took me 5 seasons to realize that as a big dude, my hand tight was tighter than the retirement age PB's 'hand tight plus 1/4 turn'.

From then on, I made the connections with what I would consider 'snug' and adjusted them to 'tight' with the pump running. I must have reassembled the equipment a dozen times each spring from overtightening before that epiphany.

I nail it on the first try more often than not now, and tighten it slowly, only until the drips stop if needed.


Also also, them leftover Covid gloves are awesome for keeping your hands clean. It's a sonufagun trying to wash off lube that's not meant to wash off.

 

[Lake Placid]

Your careful words and practice make clear that I was missing a step, or at least short-changing one. I cleaned the groove. I lubed the o-ring generously. But I did not pre-lube, have likely never pre-lubed, the channel itself. I always relied on the well lubed o-ring to do that for me but that's not quite the same thing. Thanks again.

I have also done plenty with only lubing the ring, but have found in cases where the ring doesn’t want to cooperate, lubing the groove helps hold the oring in place and assists in sealing.

 

[Brushman]

Also be mindful of overtightening ... I made the connections with what I would consider 'snug' and adjusted them to 'tight' with the pump running ... also, them leftover Covid gloves are awesome for keeping your hands clean. It's a sonufagun trying to wash off lube that's not meant to wash off.

I have always been more worried about over-tightening, at least right up until today and it's funny what you said about the covid gloves because I used them today EXACTLY for keeping the lube off my hands.

 

[newdude]

I think I've bought 3 or 4 new packs of 'leftover Covid gloves' since then but once I named them back when, they're named. You know ?

Pool equipment work, oil changes, cleaning out the cat box........ I loves them now when I never wore gloves before.

 

[Dirk]

I'm in the other camp, I can't get things tight enough with just my hands anymore. I use a giant pipe wrench to give an extra 1/8 turn after hand-tightening.

I have never lubed the channel in which an o-ring seats. Not for my pool equipment, not for my scuba equipment. I was taught to lightly coat the ring with my fingers, pulling it slightly, all the way around. That maneuver coats the ring thoroughly, but also tests for any bumps or cuts in the ring (that you might feel with your fingers). Others here are against pulling on an o-ring, but I am not in that camp. Yes, they're rubber, but more synthetic than not and you are not going to misshapen an o-ring by gently tugging on it.

The lube is only meant to keep the ring from scrunching up while it seats between the two surfaces squeezing it as you tighten them. It does not add any property that makes it seal better. On the contrary, too much lube will compromise the seal.

Snugging up the fitting by hand and then tightening it in increments until the drips stop is exactly how I watched the guys from my local water company do it (when installing water meters). Since that's what they do all day long every day, and those devices virtually never leak after that, I'd say that's a "tried-n-true" method. And yes, over tightening is the real seal-killer. Just enough, but no more.

That all said, do what works for you.

 

[Brushman]

If you are hand tightening the union, after you get it tight, take a dry towel and wrap it around the union and see if you can hand tighten it more. Usually the towel helps you get a little more torque on the nut.

I have a tool (like y'all do, that neat little rubber wrap wrench) that would do it, but I am hand-tightening the union. The towel idea is a great suggestion and could help. Today I was using two different kinds of gloves for all this. One was leftover disposable neoprene gloves for the lube stuff. Those are handy for everything. I must use 5 pairs a week all over the house. They also were great for temporary cell covers to keep the cell's electronics clean inside during today's wild wind and weather. Thank you McGiver.

The other pair was new-ish gardening type gloves devoted to pool use that have a rubberized coating. Those let guys that have missed a few weeks (or months or longer) in the gym the ability to hand-tighten like the Hulk. I also threw my usual "don't over tighten" caution to the wind during the second half of this afternoon as my leak persisted, but it persisted anyway. I'll attack re-lubing and re-seating the o-ring tomorrow as the first and most likely culprit.

One question I don't think has been addressed so far, and I don't have the broader experience to have any idea about this -- is a failure of the seal between the cell union coupling and the PVC fairly fairly common, or pretty rare, or almost unheard of?

And if it's not the o-ring, from a hundred thousand feet, is failure of the PVC to cell union coupling the most likely "next culprit" or is something else more likely?

 

[newdude]

is a failure of the seal between the cell union coupling and the PVC fairly fairly common, or pretty rare, or almost unheard of?

It's glued to the PVC and all but indestructible.

Usually the pipes or pad settles and they no longer line dead up. The union nut can only pull them so square and any leftover variance in mating surfaces leaks out the back of the union nut, because the front is t-i-g-h-t. Possibly too tight. Lol.

 

[Lake Placid]

It's glued to the PVC and all but indestructible.

Usually the pipes or pad settles and they no longer line dead up. The union nut can only pull them so square and any leftover variance in mating surfaces leaks out the back of the union nut, because the front is t-i-g-h-t. Possibly too tight. Lol.

+1 it’s commonly referred to as gluing but is solvent welding. If you look inside an open fitting after it’s properly welded you can sometimes see melted pvc from the inside of the fitting that has moved during the fitting process. If it doesn’t leak pretty much immediately after installation/cure time it’s likely not going to just give up without some external force acting on it (i.e. pressure from freezing). NewDude covered the failures due to equipment shifting. I’m not sure how you install the unit, but if the unions don’t exactly line up, work both sides of the cell to help true the pipes. Start one side, then move to the other and start it. Then alternate sides trying to torque equally each time until you get them tight. This can sometimes help pull unions on equipment that are just out of square together.

 

[Dirk]

Other things to recheck. I think you said you replaced the o-ring and that didn't help. If not, do. Feel the o-ring all the way around, a few times, hunting down bumps, splits, cracks, deformations, etc. Be sure the lube coats every bit of the ring, but don't slop it on. Shiny, not gooey.

You said you cleaned the channels. Do it again. Lint free cloth (NOT Q-tips).

Inspect the seal surfaces for cracks and deformations. I think you said you did that, too, but do it again. Maybe with a magnifying glass.

I'm not sure what you're describing re: PVC and glue. I think the guys covered that.

 

[DennyMac]

Could be a very simple fix.

Did you check for a blown fuse? This YT video explains.

 

[Brushman]

too much lube will compromise the seal ... and yes, over tightening is the real seal-killer. Just enough, but no more.

I may have used too much lube. I may also have over tightened. "If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing" may have bit me on the backside. The odd part is I've never had a problem with an o-ring anywhere before.

 

[Brushman]

... Feel the o-ring all the way around, a few times, hunting down bumps, splits, cracks, deformations, etc. Be sure the lube coats every bit of the ring, but don't slop it on. Shiny, not gooey.

I inspected the "old" o-ring (only 3 weeks in service) and the brand new o-ring very carefully, both felt and looked fine. But I probably used more lube than ideal.

 

[Brushman]

... I’m not sure how you install the [cell] but if the unions don’t exactly line up, work both sides of the cell to help true the pipes. Start one side, then move to the other and start it. Then alternate sides trying to torque equally each time until you get them tight. This can sometimes help pull unions on equipment that are just out of square together.

The piping lines up well. I install the cell by starting on one side with three or four turns at the union to get the threads engaged, then the same on the other side, then back and forth, trying to basically have both unions hit the finish line at the same time.

I need to just go rinse and repeat. One of my challenges is to figure out whether part of the problem is that I am (a) over-tightening or (b) under-tightening.

 

[Brushman]

It's glued to the PVC and all but indestructible.

That's what I'd always thought until this new leak popped up that resisted the things I usually do to fix leaks.

Usually the pipes or pad settles and they no longer line dead up.

They still seem to line up pretty good.

The union nut can only pull them so square and any leftover variance in mating surfaces leaks out the back of the union nut, because the front is t-i-g-h-t. Possibly too tight. Lol.

Wish I could post the 5 second video I took because it shows the exact source of the leak -- and it is the back of the union nut. Seems like a clue but I don't know what the clue is trying to tell me. I don't know what leaking out the back of the union nut points to.

 

[Brushman]

I don't know whether videos can't be uploaded to TFP at all or whether the problem is that mine is a .mov file.

 

[newdude]

I don't know what leaking out the back of the union nut points to.

The union / o-ring, not the welded pvc to coupler connection.

I don't know whether videos can't be uploaded to TFP at all or whether the problem is that mine is a .mov file.

Folks upload to YouTube then link the video that way. I don't YouTube so it's beyond my skillset tho for further details.

 

[Brushman]

The union / bring, not the welded pvc to coupler connection.

Folks upload to YouTube then link the video that way. I don't YouTube so it's beyond my skillset tho for further details.

Thanks Newdude, great idea. Here's a link via iCloud Photo Sharing. It should work for anyone on any device, no Apple equipment or iCloud account needed. iCloud Photo Sharing

 

[Dirk]

It's only one side leaking, right? You could swap the o-rings, one end to the other, to see if it's the o-ring or not.