0 CYA and 0 FC. Need advise

[LovinPoolLife]

It's not like that at all. Respect it, of course. But you can rinse right in the pool, calmly, if you catch a drop. A very quick dip and wipe is all it takes to dilute.

I will finish what I'm doing, go to the driveway to throw the bottle out, passing 2 hoses on the way, then go inside to wash with soap.

*then* someone here taught me to mostly sink the bottle so there'd be no splashing. I poured waist high for years like a clown. I don't even need to casually go wash anymore.

How much do people go through muraticnacid. The store by me sells it in a case of 4 gallons. Do that many people have PH issues all summer? If everything gets balanced, ph generally stays pretty even. Last yr was the only yr I’ve ever had to mess with my PH. And the only reason it got high was from pool store telling me to add 12 lb bag of Balance Pak100 to increase alkalinity. And it was in the upper 60’s. They said it had to be at least 125. HUGE MISTAKE and lesson learned

 

[Newdude]

I think it’s more economical and easier to maintain.

Both the economics and the convienence cannot be overstated. They are both hardcore in your favor.

With buying a house you will inherit their brand of equipment and we'll likely want to stick with it in case of automation.

But hit me up with the volume and equipment details when the time comes and I'll find you a SWG and run those #s.

How much do people go through muraticnacid.

With vinyl and pool friendly tap/rain water, rarely. I dosed once last year and only because it was a big party and the 8 PH *might* bother sensitive eyes. It never bothers us.

Plaster pools and/or high TA fill water folks need alot more acid.

 

[Lake Placid]

Muratic acid is kind of scary to use, in my opinion. I’d Be afraid to get it on myself.

As @Newdude said respect it. It’s corrosive and you should be careful….Now I’ll share a little story.

In my previous professional life I once had a pool manger that was responsible to change chems for an automated commercial system. Work needed to be done on the system and a 15 gallon barrel of acid needed to be changed. Said pool manager was so afraid of acid that he began suiting up in full level 5 hazmat gear. goggles, rubber suit, respirator, lead lined gloves, boots…the works.

I had an old friend that is a pool veteran of about 40 years working with him to train him and show him the ropes. When my friend saw the pool manager literally don all this Crud to change an acid barrel, he opened the valve on the barrel and washed his hands with the full strength undiluted acid….He then said, don’t worry kid, you’ll be fine. Just treat it with respect but don’t go overboard, it won’t hurt you. I fell over laughing.

Now I’m not saying wash your eyes with it, quite the contrary…that IS one area it will hurt you quickly. But in reality acid in the concentrations we use is fairly benign, and while it can hurt you if left on skin long enough, if you have an actual issue you’ve got a 20,000 gallon bath tub to jump in immediately to wash yourself off. Otherwise the worst you’ll likely experience is a damaged shirt from a splash (if you’re not careful) or a little stinging in a cut if you splash a bit in it.

 

[LovinPoolLife]

As @Newdude said respect it. It’s corrosive and you should be careful….Now I’ll share a little story.

In my previous professional life I once had a pool manger that was responsible to change chems for an automated commercial system. Work needed to be done on the system and a 15 gallon barrel of acid needed to be changed. Said pool manager was so afraid of acid that he began suiting up in full level 5 hazmat gear. goggles, rubber suit, respirator, lead lined gloves, boots…the works.

I had an old friend that is a pool veteran of about 40 years working with him to train him and show him the ropes. When my friend saw the pool manager literally don all this Crud to change an acid barrel, he opened the valve on the barrel and washed his hands with the full strength undiluted acid….He then said, don’t worry kid, you’ll be fine. Just treat it with respect but don’t go overboard, it won’t hurt you. I fell over laughing.

Now I’m not saying wash your eyes with it, quite the contrary…that IS one area it will hurt you quickly. But in reality acid in the concentrations we use is fairly benign, and while it can hurt you if left on skin long enough, if you have an actual issue you’ve got a 20,000 gallon bath tub to jump in immediately to wash yourself off. Otherwise the worst you’ll likely experience is a damaged shirt from a splash (if you’re not careful) or a little stinging in a cut if you splash a bit in it.

OMgosh that is funny and would probably resemble how I’d get suited up to use it. Except then I’d give my neighbor whom I don’t like something to laugh at. So I’d suck it up and act like the old pro but be praying not to get any on me.

 

[mgtfp]

The 1st pic with red cap is TF kit the 2nd pic is the one I bought over the weekend. I can’t tell if it’s 7.8 or higher than that.

Muratic acid is kind of scary to use, in my opinion. I’d Be afraid to get it on myself. LOL. Can I use a dry acid? I have 1/2 a bag left from last summer.

View attachment 567616

As opposed to SWGs, this stuff actually is bad for plaster. Also bad for SWGs, when you have on.

Dry acid adds sulfates to the pool, which are bad for plaster and also to SWG cell plates.


As already mentioned, treat muriatic acid with respect but not fear. I do wear safety goggles, because I don't want it in my eyes are on my prescription glasses. If I get a splash on my hand, I just rinse it off in the pool.

The fumes are a bit intimidating, but actually a good thing. It reminds you of what you are handling, and your instincts will make you turn away immediately when you get a whiff up your nose, rather than taking a deep breath - the intense smell actually protects you. Work upwind, not downwind, just don't breath it in.

 

[mgtfp]

The acid demand is another thing where the TFP method will be a lot more economical to what the pool store tells you to do.

Their advice of maintaining relatively high TA around 100 and lowering pH each time you give them a water sample down to 7.2 creates an acid / baking soda adding seesaw with only one purpose: Get you back into the store to buy more of their acid and alkalinity increaser (aka baking soda).

TFP will teach you to maintain TA a bit lower (higher TA is only required with Trichlor tabs, not with liquid chlorine or SWGs) and pH a bit higher which reduces pH rise and acid demand drastically. But we'll cross that bridge when we get there. For now: Slam on!

 

[SJPoe]

Pour Muriatic Acid on concrete and it fizzes and bubbles alarmingly - oooooh, acid!!! Danger Danger Will Robinson.

Muriatic isn't something I'd shower in, but it's not going to eat your arm off if you splash a little on a finger. Pour carefully, avoid splashing, you'll be fine. If you're really worried, grab a pack of nitrile gloves from the hardware store for insurance.

To be honest, the vapors from MA are probably the most 'dangerous' part of it - pour and use in a well ventilated space, and do NOT mix it with your liquid chlorine. If you used a jug/cup to measure LC, make sure that jug/cup is thoroughly rinsed before using it for MA (or you produce Chlorine Gas, and that is not a fun time).

 

[Sunny Blues]

It got shortened to a year or so.

But OK FINE !!!!!

*cracks knuckles*

Each gallon of 10% gets 5 FC in 20k gallons.

It'll cost you $6.12 per gallon out the door at Walmart. That's $1.22 per FC.

A circupool RJ45+ can be had for $1294.92 out the door. It will produce 12 FC per 24 hours for you, or conservatively 5000 FC lifetime. (Using 10k hours instead of the 15k they claim. If it lasts 10k+, it's even more gravy).

5000 FC is 1000 Walmart jugs, which would cost $6124 out the door. Let's say you get totally hosed with paying a pro $2k to install the cell, it's half the cost. With a fair install price, it's closer to 1/3 the cost of bleach.

Replacement cells are a 10 min DIY swap and only need the cell without the install costs or controller. They'll pay back 6X+

I feel bad to interject because I know you’re much more of an expert than I am, but your breakdown is a bit misleading using the highest dollar amount for 10% chlorine.

We can get a 4-pk of 12.5% for $15.99 today, (grocery Woodman’s) and if that is sold out we can get it at another store (farm & fleet) $17.79. $17.99 is the average price for 12.5% at most stores.

At worst Menards has the 4-pk for $20 but with a rebate that brings it to $17.99

I mentioned recently that last week American Sale was charging $24 for a 4-pk, but that was the first time ever we saw that and not representative of all places around us. Searching showed me we can go elsewhere.

I’d be curious what your cost comparison analysis would look like using the $15.99 for 12.5%, and the $17.99 for 12.5%. Would it really be that much more of a savings? We use about 8-10 boxes of 4-pk per season. That’s $150-$200/year at most. I’m not arguing the value of convenience, I’m arguing the cost of the SWG being cheaper than chlorine usage. For what we pay it would take 10 years to equal what we spent on a $2,000 SWG

 

[Newdude]

but your breakdown is a bit misleading using the highest dollar amount for 10% chlorine.

I use Walmart as most people do. It's worse at Lowe's ($7+) and Home Depot ($9+). With some time later I'll run your much better #s for those with access to those supplies.

 

[LovinPoolLife]

I feel bad to interject because I know you’re much more of an expert than I am, but your breakdown is a bit misleading using the highest dollar amount for 10% chlorine.

We can get a 4-pk of 12.5% for $15.99 today, (grocery Woodman’s) and if that is sold out we can get it at another store (farm & fleet) $17.79. $17.99 is the average price for 12.5% at most stores.

At worst Menards has the 4-pk for $20 but with a rebate that brings it to $17.99

I mentioned recently that last week American Sale was charging $24 for a 4-pk, but that was the first time ever we saw that and not representative of all places around us. Searching showed me we can go elsewhere.

I’d be curious what your cost comparison analysis would look like using the $15.99 for 12.5%, and the $17.99 for 12.5%. Would it really be that much more of a savings? We use about 8-10 boxes of 4-pk per season. That’s $150-$200/year at most. I’m not arguing the value of convenience, I’m arguing the cost of the SWG being cheaper than chlorine usage. For what we pay it would take 10 years to equal what we spent on a $2,000 SWG

I get the 4 gallon case of Champion 12.5% at a local store near me and it’s $18. I’m going to start going to woodmans to get it, since that’s cheaper and right down the road from me! Thank you for letting me know they have it.

 

[SJPoe]

I’d be curious what your cost comparison analysis would look like using the $15.99 for 12.5%, and the $17.99 for 12.5%. Would it really be that much more of a savings? We use about 8-10 boxes of 4-pk per season. That’s $150-$200/year at most. I’m not arguing the value of convenience, I’m arguing the cost of the SWG being cheaper than chlorine usage. For what we pay it would take 10 years to equal what we spent on a $2,000 SWG

TL;DR - SWG is far cheaper PPM/$ for most users than Liquid Chlorine. Upfront costs are higher, and your payback period may be a couple years or more, but your PPM/$ cost WILL be lower.

I was on the fence too before I crunched the numbers (and had them crunched by @Newdude a few times !!)

First - there is a difference between 'Cheaper than Chlorine' and 'Payback Period'.
SWG Chlorine is without doubt cheaper than 'in-the-jug, buy it once a week LC'.

Example :
1 gallon of the cheapest LC around adds 5ppm to my pool.
Cheapest LC locally is from Menards at effectively $3.99+tax/gal
That essentially works out to be 5ppm per $4.23 = 1.2ppm per $1 spent.

My RJ-60+ cost me $1499.
The cell ($800) is rated for 15000 hours, generating 3.1lbs of Chlorine per 24hours - so that works out at 15ppm/24 hours, or roughly 9375ppm (in my 25000 gallon pool). I've validated this rate based on the % setting on the SWG, and the PPM measurements in the pool - its pretty much bang on.

For arguments sake, lets assume the cell only lasts 66% of it's expected lifecycle, and call it 5500ppm lifetime.

5500ppm / $800 = 6.9ppm per $1 spent.
So assuming the best case for Liquid Chlorine, and the worst case for my SWG, it still costs me one-sixth as much to use the SWG versus the jugs.
Plus, I'm not factoring in the LC being little more than $4.23, in that you have to fill out a rebate, plus gas to go get it, time, storage, stamps, recycling the empty jugs.
Plus, if you use the full expected lifecycle, the number is closer to 12ppm/$1

Payback time is different - the total cost of my SWG was $1500 (I installed myself) - I would have to not buy LC for about 3 years to 'pay that back' - assuming LC stays the same price it is today, and I make no allowance for any of the hassle factors. However, once it's paid back, I'm saving $400+ a year, based on TODAYS LC prices. Who knows where they'll be in 3 years time.

 

[Sunny Blues]

TL;DR - SWG is far cheaper PPM/$ for most users than Liquid Chlorine. Upfront costs are higher, and your payback period may be a couple years or more, but your PPM/$ cost WILL be lower.

I was on the fence too before I crunched the numbers (and had them crunched by @Newdude a few times !!)

First - there is a difference between 'Cheaper than Chlorine' and 'Payback Period'.
SWG Chlorine is without doubt cheaper than 'in-the-jug, buy it once a week LC'.

Example :
1 gallon of the cheapest LC around adds 5ppm to my pool.
Cheapest LC locally is from Menards at effectively $3.99+tax/gal
That essentially works out to be 5ppm per $4.23 = 1.2ppm per $1 spent.

My RJ-60+ cost me $1499.
The cell ($800) is rated for 15000 hours, generating 3.1lbs of Chlorine per 24hours - so that works out at 15ppm/24 hours, or roughly 9375ppm (in my 25000 gallon pool). I've validated this rate based on the % setting on the SWG, and the PPM measurements in the pool - its pretty much bang on.

For arguments sake, lets assume the cell only lasts 66% of it's expected lifecycle, and call it 5500ppm lifetime.

5500ppm / $800 = 6.9ppm per $1 spent.
So assuming the best case for Liquid Chlorine, and the worst case for my SWG, it still costs me one-sixth as much to use the SWG versus the jugs.
Plus, I'm not factoring in the LC being little more than $4.23, in that you have to fill out a rebate, plus gas to go get it, time, storage, stamps, recycling the empty jugs.
Plus, if you use the full expected lifecycle, the number is closer to 12ppm/$1

Payback time is different - the total cost of my SWG was $1500 (I installed myself) - I would have to not buy LC for about 3 years to 'pay that back' - assuming LC stays the same price it is today, and I make no allowance for any of the hassle factors. However, once it's paid back, I'm saving $400+ a year, based on TODAYS LC prices. Who knows where they'll be in 3 years time.

It must be pool size then, because my pool is only 18,600 gallons (but probably more like 16,000 since the water is never all the way to the top,) and we have never spent more than $200-$250 a year on chlorine. For over 13 years. At the most expensive, let’s say we paid that ridiculous $6 a gallon for this whole year, we still wouldn’t have spent more than $350 on LC. But we won’t pay that. But for arguments sake let’s say at most $350/year is what I’m looking at. It will take a lot more than three years to break even.

I get your ppm argument, but we just aren’t using as much as you are saying would be used. I have 13 years of data to follow for how much chlorine we actually use. I don’t know why we don’t need that much chlorine, maybe it’s because our water is so spectacularly balanced? But at the end of the day I care how much money left my pocketbook and we are only paying between $200-$300 every year. That’s it.

The number crunching is misleading is all I’m saying. It doesn’t match up to our reality here with our pool.

 

[Newdude]

The number crunching is misleading is all I’m saying

It's dead on, FC per FC.

Now. If your pool is somewhat shaded, or you use a solar cover and need less FC, then you have a lower yearly demand than others. The #s still tell the truth, it's just that the period of time to use XXXX FC is longer. Not only do you use less bleach, but you'd use less SWG runtime proportionately, so it would live years longer.

In short, it's a wash using less FC either way.

 

[Mdragger88]

It must be pool size then, because my pool is only 18,600 gallons (but probably more like 16,000 since the water is never all the way to the top,) and we have never spent more than $200-$250 a year on chlorine. For over 13 years. At the most expensive, let’s say we paid that ridiculous $6 a gallon for this whole year, we still wouldn’t have spent more than $350 on LC. But we won’t pay that. But for arguments sake let’s say at most $350/year is what I’m looking at. It will take a lot more than three years to break even.

I get your ppm argument, but we just aren’t using as much as you are saying would be used. I have 13 years of data to follow for how much chlorine we actually use. I don’t know why we don’t need that much chlorine, maybe it’s because our water is so spectacularly balanced? But at the end of the day I care how much money left my pocketbook and we are only paying between $200-$300 every year. That’s it.

The number crunching is misleading is all I’m saying. It doesn’t match up to our reality here with our pool.

The numbers definitely get more advantageous towards a swcg as the pool gets bigger also the longer you use the swcg/longer it lives.
For those with smaller pools, less daily fc consumption, & shorter seasons the gap is not as large. (Payback period is longer)
I have a 26k gal pool & my “cheaper than bleach time frame ”using $3.74/ gal 10% was 2.5 yrs when I first calculated it a few years ago.
using $4.60/gal 10% it went to 1.67 yrs.
I figured I use an average of 2.7ppm fc/day for 7 months.
Luckily I aquired a used system & just had to shell out $600 for a cell & a flow switch so my roi was only 6 months now i’m in the gravy part
Every pool’s #’s are different but in the long run it is cheaper to use a swcg. If bleach goes back to being $2.50 a gallon that might change but I doubt it will happen.

 

[Newdude]

If bleach goes back to being $2.50 a gallon that might change but I doubt it will happen.

Even if bleach fell drastically and it was a wash financially, then we'd discuss the convienence being a hands down win. Lol.

 

[Mdragger88]

Even if bleach fell drastically and it was a wash financially, then we'd discuss the convienence being a hands down win. Lol.

I’m still salty over the obvious gouging of a public health necessity

 

[proavia]

Time to get this thread back on track for the OP's sake.

@LovinPoolLife - post current test results.
You still haven't linked PoolMath to your forum account that I can see.

 

[dBsooner]

CC I’d say between .5 - 1 It was almost completely clear after 1 drop but had to put 2nd one in

Just because no one has mentioned it and it’s important.. we count that as 1, not “between .5 and 1”. When counting drops, you go until there is no more color change. If 1 drop removed most, then 1 more made it clear, it’s 2 drops. Same with changing colors on the other tests. If one more drop makes it “more blue” or “more red / pink”, then count that drop. If you can’t see any difference at all after a drop, don’t count that drop.

 

[dBsooner]

I poured waist high for years like a clown. I don't even need to casually go wash anymore.

I pour neck chest high. oh wait, chest high is still bottle / measuring cup slightly submerged in the water of my AGP.

For real, great advice. Muriatic acid is the way to go. Treat it with respect, but it’s not as scary as some lead you do believe.

 

[dBsooner]

Time to get this thread back on track for the OP's sake.

@LovinPoolLife - post current test results.
You still haven't linked PoolMath to your forum account that I can see.

Whoops. Sorry. Just read this AFTER I replied. Thanks for getting it back on track.