Bromine to the rescue!

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S

SteveOL

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2024
47
Buninyong, Victoria, Australia
Howdy all. So after 10 months of purging, cleaning, testing for bacterium at a lab, avoiding the hot tub and suffering from itching when I did hop in, last night I went to a friend’s place and tried his bromine sanitised hot tub.

NO ITCHING!!

I’m so relieved but disappointed I have barely been able to use our 14 month old tub for the past 10.

So I have a new bromine floater and am going to get the other chemicals I need.

a) Do I need to empty the spa? It is well balanced and I used the dichlor/bleach method. Cleaned and purged very recently.

b) I believe I need granular bromine to establish a bromine bank. My store has a product with
1-bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin. Not strictly sodium bromide. Is that ok?

c) I need bromine tablets for the floater. The store’s tablets are the same chemical. Ok?

d) Can I use 13% liquid chlorine to shock it weekly? Also have 37.2% dichlor and some 60% dichlor. Although I’m s*** scared of chlorine now, I believe it converts the bromide to bromine and the chlorine is gone almost straight away. (1650L or 436 gal tub). Prefer not to waste it if I can use it.

e) Am I able to use my liquid test kit and multiply the FC result by 2.25 to get the bromine reading?

f) Not sure if it matters but I have an ozone generator. I’ve read that may reduce the amount of bromine I need to add.

g) Should I be concerned about any residual chloramines in the tub water when I introduce bromine?

Thank you to everyone here who has helped me over the past 10 months. Particularly Jim from AhhSome who I’ve been emailing War & Peace to. He’s a legend.
 
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SteveOL said:
Howdy all. So after 10 months of purging, cleaning, testing for bacterium at a lab, avoiding the hot tub and suffering from itching when I did hop in, last night I went to a friend’s place and tried his bromine sanitised hot tub.

NO ITCHING!!

I’m so relieved but disappointed I have barely been able to use our 14 month old tub for the past 10.

So I have a new bromine floater and am going to get the other chemicals I need.

a) Do I need to empty the spa? It is well balanced and I used the dichlor/bleach method. Cleaned and purged very recently.

b) I believe I need granular bromine to establish a bromine bank. My store has a product with
1-bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin. Not strictly sodium bromide. Is that ok?

c) I need bromine tablets for the floater. The store’s tablets are the same chemical. Ok?

d) Can I use 13% liquid chlorine to shock it weekly? Also have 37.2% dichlor and some 60% dichlor. Although I’m s*** scared of chlorine now, I believe it converts the bromide to bromine and the chlorine is gone almost straight away. (1650L or 436 gal tub). Prefer not to waste it if I can use it.

e) Am I able to use my liquid test kit and multiply the FC result by 2.25 to get the bromine reading?

f) Not sure if it matters but I have an ozone generator. I’ve read that may reduce the amount of bromine I need to add.

g) Should I be concerned about any residual chloramines in the tub water when I introduce bromine?

Thank you to everyone here who has helped me over the past 10 months. Particularly Jim from AhhSome who I’ve been emailing War & Peace to. He’s a legend.
Click to expand...
Whatever you decide to do, don’t try and save water thats causing skin irritation. Get rid of it, all of it and start fresh. I’m not a bromine fan but maybe someone else can help with that part.
 
You can certainly turn a chlorine tub into a bromine tub without a water exchange as the chlorine will be converted to bromine which will be the active sanitizer. But You cannot go back to chlorine as your sanitizer without a water exchange.
Whether you trust the water to be clean is up to you (I realize you have thoroughly purged & decontaminated)

If you want to ensure that your sanitizer is all bromine (not a mix of chlorine and bromine) then stick to adding your bank via 99% sodium bromide. As there is no way to differentiate when testing.
Walmart & amazon both sell this .
Leisure time & spa choice are 2 brands
Some pool stores sell packets (sirona brand)
After you’ve determined your bank you are free to “reactivate” via liquid chlorine,dichlor, or mps
The tabs would simply be to reactivate your bromine while also adding some bromide to your bank to make up for degradation over time.
You may find that you don’t need the tabs and manual activation is sufficient.
Some find the tabs to erode too quickly so keep an eye on them/total br levels if you use them.
Yes, multiply your fc results of your fas dpd kit by 2.25 to determine total bromine. You don’t perform the cc portion of the test.
If you have the taylor oto kit (yellow drops) you will see 2 sets of numbers, one for total chlorine and one for total bromine.

The ozone may help or hurt- depends on how much you use the tub.
Ymmv.

Do you currently have elevated cc’s?
 
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I’m back in my happy place, spas and ski fields just seem like a good match and the only time I use one. The spas hear are all managed with dichlor and serviced three times a week. Probably only get a water change once per season but that’s just a guess. I had a terrible reaction to the tub last year, the exact same tub in a place we’ve stayed before without issue. We’re in a different place this year and don’t have a problem. I think it’s more about what’s in the water reacting with the sanitizer to create something above a threshold level that will cause a reaction. It’s likely that bromine is producing a different set of byproducts at different levels. You may find that a reaction may eventually happen with time. But I’ve not dealt with bromine much.

I have used the FAS/DPD to test for bromine and yes, as before it measures total bromine not free bromine, x2.25. A standard DPD kit has the bromine, TB, marked on the comparator.

I’m not a fan of ozone, it is very reactive, a good sanitizer and oxidizer but provides no residue sanitizer or oxidizer in the water. No ozone should be allowed in the water. Given how reactive it is surely it must react with the primary sanitizer but I have no idea of what those reactions or interactions would be.
 
Mdragger88 said:
You can certainly turn a chlorine tub into a bromine tub without a water exchange as the chlorine will be converted to bromine which will be the active sanitizer. But You cannot go back to chlorine as your sanitizer without a water exchange.
Whether you trust the water to be clean is up to you (I realize you have thoroughly purged & decontaminated)

If you want to ensure that your sanitizer is all bromine (not a mix of chlorine and bromine) then stick to adding your bank via 99% sodium bromide. As there is no way to differentiate when testing.
Walmart & amazon both sell this .
Leisure time & spa choice are 2 brands
Some pool stores sell packets (sirona brand)
After you’ve determined your bank you are free to “reactivate” via liquid chlorine,dichlor, or mps
The tabs would simply be to reactivate your bromine while also adding some bromide to your bank to make up for degradation over time.
You may find that you don’t need the tabs and manual activation is sufficient.
Some find the tabs to erode too quickly so keep an eye on them/total br levels if you use them.
Yes, multiply your fc results of your fas dpd kit by 2.25 to determine total bromine. You don’t perform the cc portion of the test.
If you have the taylor oto kit (yellow drops) you will see 2 sets of numbers, one for total chlorine and one for total bromine.

The ozone may help or hurt- depends on how much you use the tub.
Ymmv.

Do you currently have elevated cc’s?
Click to expand...
Thank you for that.

I'm in Australia so Walmart isn't available and I'm keen to get cracking so Amazon is out.

I was in a store yesterday that had a small packet. I'll be back in today too check it out.

That's great re: chlorine, dichlor, etc.

I understand there's need to measure bromamines because they are nearly as effective a sanitizer as HOBr, according to Taylor Technologies.

I might start off with the floater and tabs and see how it all goes shocking with chlorine once a week.

No I don't have elevated CCs. If I test with my kit it's usually 0.5ppm. But my cover is on the spa most of the time. I really should have the cover off for 30 mins a day. Tested my chlorine demand in late January and it was 22% which is considered very good.

Thank you for your advice over the last while, @Mdragger88 . You've been a great resource.
 
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AUSpool said:
I’m back in my happy place, spas and ski fields just seem like a good match and the only time I use one. The spas hear are all managed with dichlor and serviced three times a week. Probably only get a water change once per season but that’s just a guess. I had a terrible reaction to the tub last year, the exact same tub in a place we’ve stayed before without issue. We’re in a different place this year and don’t have a problem. I think it’s more about what’s in the water reacting with the sanitizer to create something above a threshold level that will cause a reaction. It’s likely that bromine is producing a different set of byproducts at different levels. You may find that a reaction may eventually happen with time. But I’ve not dealt with bromine much.

I have used the FAS/DPD to test for bromine and yes, as before it measures total bromine not free bromine, x2.25. A standard DPD kit has the bromine, TB, marked on the comparator.

I’m not a fan of ozone, it is very reactive, a good sanitizer and oxidizer but provides no residue sanitizer or oxidizer in the water. No ozone should be allowed in the water. Given how reactive it is surely it must react with the primary sanitizer but I have no idea of what those reactions or interactions would be.
Click to expand...
Are you in Japan? A mate went over in early January and said it was super. I was in a spa on the front of a boat on Ha Long Bay, Vietnam in December and had no issue. Unreal! No idea what sanitiser they were using if any.

Apparently ozone is excellent for regenerating spent bromine ions into hypobromous acid. May mean less shocking is required but may use up more bromine. This will be a journey. I was all over chlorine so I'm starting again!
 
SteveOL said:
Are you in Japan? A mate went over in early January and said it was super. I was in a spa on the front of a boat on Ha Long Bay, Vietnam in December and had no issue. Unreal! No idea what sanitiser they were using if any.

Apparently ozone is excellent for regenerating spent bromine ions into hypobromous acid. May mean less shocking is required but may use up more bromine. This will be a journey. I was all over chlorine so I'm starting again!
Click to expand...
Canada. Only a short stay this time.

Sorry, I think it’s mini trichlor tabs in a float.
And thinking of the tub - it’s been another beautiful blue bird day.
Time to take in the tub view with a cold beverage. :)⛷️🍻:)
IMG_7955.jpeg
 
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Ok @Mdragger88 . So I measured my bromine levels this morning with just tablets in there. About 2ppm. Thought I'd give the crushed tablets a go to get the bromine bank up as I can't get sodium bromide granules. 100g of 65% bromine in the tablets. Measured this evening and bromine is through the roof. Is that sodium bromide it's measuring? If I shock it with liquid chlorine would that bring it down? As in turn it to bromine? I'm trying so hard and am over this tub. I wouldn't be that unhappy if a tree fell on it.
 
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SteveOL said:
Ok @Mdragger88 . So I measured my bromine levels this morning with just tablets in there. About 2ppm. Thought I'd give the crushed tablets a go to get the bromine bank up as I can't get sodium bromide granules. 100g of 65% bromine in the tablets. Measured this evening and bromine is through the roof. Is that sodium bromide it's measuring? If I shock it with liquid chlorine would that bring it down? As in turn it to bromine? I'm trying so hard and am over this tub. I wouldn't be that unhappy if a tree fell on it.
Click to expand...
You cannot differentiate between bromine and fc by testing unfortunately which is why I suggested only using 99% sodium bromide to ensure you know the exact amount of your bromide bank and that all the chlorine is being converted.
I would imagine that at least some of what you are testing is chlorine- this will subside.
Maybe @JoyfulNoise can do the math on how much bromide your addition actually yielded you.
What is your total br measurement now? “Through the roof” is irrelevant. We like numbers 😊
Long story short- if the total br level is higher than the assumed bromide bank level then the surplus is fc.
 
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Mdragger88 said:
You cannot differentiate between bromine and fc by testing unfortunately which is why I suggested only using 99% sodium bromide to ensure you know the exact amount of your bromide bank and that all the chlorine is being converted.
I would imagine that at least some of what you are testing is chlorine- this will subside.
Maybe @JoyfulNoise can do the math on how much bromide your addition actually yielded you.
What is your total br measurement now? “Through the roof” is irrelevant. We like numbers 😊
Long story short- if the total br level is higher than the assumed bromide bank level then the surplus is fc.
Click to expand...
If I had sodium bromide available to me I would have used it. Think I mentioned it wasn’t. It’s as rare as assault rifles over here.

100g of 65% sodium bromide/28% chlorine tablets. Read another post which said a similar combination would give me 30ppm bromide bank.

how to establish bromide bank with tablets.

Having trouble finding sodium bromide here in canada so just wondering how many tablets to crush to get the proper bromide bank established. currently running with tri chlor tablets and liquid bleach after use since the spa store gave us CL tabs instead of Bromine with the spa.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
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SteveOL said:
If I had sodium bromide available to me I would have used it. Think I mentioned it wasn’t. It’s as rare as assault rifles over here.

100g of 65% sodium bromide/28% chlorine tablets. Read another post which said a similar combination would give me 30ppm bromide bank.

how to establish bromide bank with tablets.

Having trouble finding sodium bromide here in canada so just wondering how many tablets to crush to get the proper bromide bank established. currently running with tri chlor tablets and liquid bleach after use since the spa store gave us CL tabs instead of Bromine with the spa.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
Click to expand...
Not shaming just explaining why.

I have a hard time following the toilet paper math with bromine so I don’t trust myself to verify it for you 😂

but …
if you think you have your bank built up to approximately 30ppm then you can assume up to 30ppm total br being bromine and anything higher is chlorine.
As I mentioned in the next post- if its testing above 10ppm total Br
you can use hydrogen peroxide to lower it so you can finally get to tubbing 🫧
 
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Mdragger88 said:
You cannot differentiate between bromine and fc by testing unfortunately
Click to expand...
It is possible but I can’t vouch for the accuracy and its roundabout way of doing it. Normally it’s just assumed it’s one or the other. Glycine tablets can be used to pre treat a sample. The premise is that the glycine turns any available FC into CC that wont react with the DPD or FAS/DPD test. In theory the test should now only respond to FB and CB (TB). Doing the test again without the glycine step will yield FC + TB then (FC + TB) - TB = FC. The error factor would be quite high. Unrelated but I found that old DPD tablets give a false positive.

SteveOL said:
Apparently ozone is excellent for regenerating spent bromine ions into hypobromous acid. May mean less shocking is required but may use up more bromine. This will be a journey. I was all over chlorine so I'm starting again!
Click to expand...
Yes it will.
O3 + Br- —> O2 + BrO-
But the yield will be small and you have no way of testing for actual output ofO3. In general the output from domestic units is really quit small compared to the possible bather load.

More on ozone here. https://www.poolhelp.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/JSPSI_V4N1_pp41-53.pdf
 
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