1.5 Years after Dig Day, Our Builder Quit!

sll0037 · Dec 21, 2023

Dirk said:
Looks like a pool! So glad the day went well for you.

Thank you!

kimkats said:
What a day! I am glad to see they got the inside of the pool lines straight. That is the most important in the end.

@AQUA~HOLICS is the BOMB!!!

The foreman is also the BOMB doing that work to get your shelf closer to your desired depth.

Stick to your guns about the GOOD crew coming back to "finish" the job on that wall. Don't let him say they can't come back. Did you happen to get the foreman's name and number? This one is worth "fighting" for as it will matter in down the road.

If you want to set up a sprinkler to help you water the shell you can. Other than that you are doing all you can.

I would get something on the top of that rebar sticking up. My mama bear gut says DANGER. If someone were to trip by one of them...........You can get the tip cover at Lowes and such.

The foreman and the gunite crew were great. The foreman has worked for the same gunite company for 20+ years and some of his crew had very similar tenure. They all seemed pretty experienced. Unfortunately, I didn't get his number, but I do know his name and I'm sure they may know some of my father's friends. We built some pretty good rapport since I speak Spanish.

Newdude said:
+1. The beefy ones were $5 each at HD. The upgrade over the Poland Spring bottle the worker left on mine was WELL worth it for the peace of mind.

I definitely hear everyone's advice about the rebar caps. Between the mounds, ditches, , holes, debris, and rebar everywhere, it's an adventure walking around the pool

Thankfully my girls are too small to venture outside alone, but I'll likely buy the rebar caps for my own sake.

HermanTX said:
This was my exact same thoughts looking at the pictures after the dialogue of the day's events.
Appears the gunite crew was experienced and able to fix many of the issues.

Test your plumbing to no more than 30psi. 20-30psi is norm.

Using a sprinkler is best to keep the gunite wet.
This pool really looks nice.

Thank you!

I watered the gunite in the dark last night around 8-9p, and this morning again at 830a. I must have spent a good 1.5 - 2 hour out there this morning. I found it much easier to water from inside the pool today, but some places are a bit too high for me to reach while inside so it's quite a bit of moving around.

It's interesting to see how the deep end bench and wall seem to steam as I'm soaking it. It's one of the few places that does it. I'm assuming because it's so deep, not sure.

Jm13004 said:
The Gunite crew did a great job.....no thanks to the lousy builder. Having Aqua-holic for guidance must have been a huge help. Get-r-done.

Absolutely!

Newdude said:
Not a day goes by thay somebody(s) doesn't step up spectacularly. And it's infectious. Hats off to @AQUA~HOLICS for his help.

ajw22 said:
Well you are not swimming yet but are closer.

Looks like you got a good gunite crew who really stepped up. Glad the Builder is paying their bill. The gunite work looks really good with smooth straight walls and sharp corners. I think your oversight yesterday helped.

Watering New Gunite and Concrete - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

The rebar sticking up is a major OSHA safety hazard. Someone tripping can be speared by the rebar and have significant injuries. Put caps on the rebar. Even empty water bottles on the rebar will safe them.

Next should be tile and coping. You have the tiles and coping selected and on hand?

Tile, Coping, Stone, Pavers... that's all sort of picked out but not ordered. I think we'll have some downtime with the holidays and the shell curing, so I plan to get that ordered over the next few days.

jetranger said:
Glad the gunite went well! It looks like they did a nice job!

@AQUA~HOLICS @ajw22 @Newdude all helped tremendously on my build as well.

As a side note, I really appreciate your formatting and grammar. It makes it so much easier to read through a thread when everything is neat and organized!

Thank you... I try my best!

JamesW said:
Are they going to cut off the rebar?

In any case, make them safe as soon as possible.

Keep the kids away from the rebar.

I'm sure they'll cut the rebar, but I don't think they'll be back until after Christmas.

sll0037 · Dec 22, 2023

I've been soaking the gunite 4-5 times a day, so I have about a foot of water in the deep end already. Interestingly, it looks like a lime yellow. It sprinkled all day yesterday with a light rain mixed in, but I still decided to water regularly because the walls weren't getting soaked.

Any concerns with the color of the water?

More importantly, the builder is looking to draw the next payment for the pool (gunite completion), but I'm considering not releasing those funds until they come back to gunite the back of the water feature wall. Given how the project has gone this far, I do want to ensure the back of the wall is shot with gunite as opposed to some other shoddy method.

Anyone have any thoughts on whether that seems a bit too confrontational?

Overall, the gunite is looking good. I noticed some of the edges are a bit more tattered than others and the bottom step looks a little less stout (it could be my mind playing games on me). I was thinking they may have used a bit more cut material compared to the top steps, even though I had them throwing almost all of that out.

Newdude · Dec 22, 2023

sll0037 said:
Anyone have any thoughts on whether that seems a bit too confrontational?

sll0037 said:
the builder is looking to draw the next payment for the pool (gunite completion)

sll0037 said:
they come back to gunite the back of the water feature wall.

IMO, gunite isn't completed. Maybe a fair compromise is to pay a proportionate amount, leaving yourself some wiggle room because it would cost more to finish it with another builder if things go south with this one.

JoyfulNoise · Dec 22, 2023

I would pump that stagnant water out as the gunite should not sit soaked in water. You’re also watering it too much. Just a gentle wetting 2-3 times a day is more than enough. If the water is pooling like that, it’s too much

tommelton · Dec 22, 2023

Perhaps 50% would be adequate. I look at it not in percent complete for the shell/water feature wall - I look at it in how many days the gunite crew is needed onsite. So far it looks like 2 days to complete the work, so half done, pay half. If the backside of the water feature wall is say 5% of the overall gunite shoot - and you pay 95% - he wont' get them back out and will try to half-Rear it.

JMHO

-Tom

Dirk · Dec 22, 2023

sll0037 said:
Anyone have any thoughts on whether that seems a bit too confrontational?

Typical contractor customer attitude. That's not a criticism, just the way we all are, held hostage by contractors.

The better way to look at it: is he acting inappropriately by asking you for a draw that violates the contract? If the gunite is not finished, then he shouldn't even ask you for the draw.

Giving him a partial payment is the most you should do. Giving him a percentage would be considered a favor to the contractor. Withholding partial payment for a draw that's premature is not confrontational. If he sees it that way, that's on him, not you. And how you present can go a long way to maintaining relations. The difference between:

I'M NOT GIVING YOU ONE MORE DIME UNTIL YOU FINISH THE GUNITE!! YOU SHOULDN'T EVEN ASK!!
vs
[Calmly, matter of fact] I'd feel more comfortable sticking to the contract. I'll have that draw ready for you right quick when the wall gets finished. Thanks!

Don't set the precedent. Don't give him a reason to pull this same thing next time. Set the expectation: he gets paid as per the contract.

sll0037 · Dec 24, 2023

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions on how to handle the gunite payment. I'm glad to see everyone had similar opinions to mine, but I wanted to be sure there was not an emotional element to my gut response. We'll see how the builder responds after the holiday.

On another note, we got a good amount of rain overnight... enough to fill the deep end up the pool about 3 feet.

My lot slopes from the backyard to the front street... and there is a park behind my fence line that also slopes toward our neighborhood.

I noticed many of the returns have a stream of water coming from the "indent" in the gunite that was made for all the returns.

Is water streaming from the gunite near the returns normal at this stage?

The two returns on the water feature wall are especially bad since they back toward the park where I'm sure most of that water is funneling underground toward my house. That said, I did noticed a few of the house side returns doing the same thing. If it matters, the returns are below the ground on the outside wall of the pool. I've included a few pics and videos.

Water Feature Wall Return - Video

House Side Wall Return - Video

In this video, you can see the hole the size of a pen tip with water flowing through it.

ajw22 · Dec 24, 2023

Water leaking into the pool through penetrations in the gunite before plaster is normal. The plaster around the pipes will seal those holes.

AQUA~HOLICS · Dec 24, 2023

Completely normal, it also relieves the pressure behind the shell.
All intrusions through the shell will be packed around them with ”hot” batch of plaster mix.

Dirk · Dec 25, 2023

I didn't understand until it was explained to me here that gunite is not water proof. It's the plaster that makes a pool water tight. So that weeping is fine, But...

If you see that happening on brand new plaster, or seeping out of the pipe itself, and then running down the new plaster, that is a red alert problem. That will leave a permanent stain. They are supposed to seal off each pipe with a proper fitting, including teflon tape or dope (not just a rag stuffed into it), to avoid this very issue. Just before plaster day, be sure you see that that is done, because once it's starts running down the plaster, it's likely too late.

sll0037 · Dec 29, 2023

Small Update

My wife, toddler, infant, and I all got a combination of COVID, flu, and rhinovirus before Christmas, so it’s been a rough week and it feels like we are just hitting the peak of being sick. We’ve managed to stay on top of watering the gunite though.

For the first time since gunite, the pool builder was out to do some grading with a walk behind bobcat. I believe they filled in the large hole behind the water feature wall.

The project manager pressed me about the gunite draw earlier this week, and I told him I’d be happy to approve the gunite draw when the gunite company came back out to finish the back side of the water feature wall as was discussed the day they were out.

It was crickets from the builder. He didn’t even acknowledge my response until today when he called me “with a proposal.” They want to dig another footer behind the wall to pour concrete as a finish for the backside of the wall.

I told him no. We discussed it onsite when they made the decision to not shoot the backside of the wall. A second day of gunite would be needed. He asked me why I cared how it was done and my response was simply I want it done right and that’s the way it would have been done had they not made the decision to postpone completing the backside of the wall.

The project manager’s response was well it’s going to cost us a couple thousand dollars to have the gunite company come back out. I’ll have to get on my hands and knees to beg my boss to get them to come back out.

I told him I wasn’t going to start compromising on the quality of our build now because they decided they wanted to be cheap.

I think someone said it earlier on this thread but it looks like it’s going to be an uphill battle from here on trying to ensure the builder isn’t cutting corners left and right to save his profit.

ajw22 · Dec 29, 2023

sll0037 said:
I think someone said it earlier on this thread but it looks like it’s going to be an uphill battle from here on trying to ensure the builder isn’t cutting corners left and right to save his profit.

Post #237 on Dec 19....

ajw22 said:
My worry is when a builder is on a money losing job he is going to start cutting quality in other areas to make up for it.

Feel better and take care of your family.

JoyfulNoise · Dec 29, 2023

I’d say your project is already a total loss to them and they are simply going to do everything they can to staunch the bleeding.

Get well and sorry to hear you got a lump of COVID/Flu/RSV in your stocking for Christmas …

sll0037 · Dec 29, 2023

JoyfulNoise said:
I’d say your project is already a total loss to them and they are simply going to do everything they can to staunch the bleeding.

Get well and sorry to hear you got a lump of COVID/Flu/RSV in your stocking for Christmas …

Thank you!

We actually all had RSV for Thanksgiving which wasn’t fun either.

Return to Office meant we had to put our little ones into daycare for the first time in October, so we’ve been sick every other week since then.

I’d be surprised if they will really be upside down by the time our project is complete. I thought most pool builders had about 50% margin built in to their bids. Plus most of the additional weeks we spent pre gunite were with his landscaping crews on site. Sure, they cost money to deploy as well, but much cheaper than actual contractors I’m sure.

kimkats · Dec 30, 2023

sll0037 said:
I told him I’d be happy to approve the gunite draw when the gunite company came back out to finish the back side of the water feature wall as was discussed the day they were out.

GOOD!

sll0037 said:
he called me “with a proposal.”

Nope!

sll0037 said:
I told him I wasn’t going to start compromising on the quality of our build now because they decided they wanted to be cheap.

PLEASE tell me you have all of this in writing to and from him!! If not then do an email such as: "As discussed on *date/time* you suggested x. That is not acceptable. On *date/time* we agreed on y. That is the only acceptable path forward." Send it to him read receipt.

sll0037 said:
put our little ones into daycare

Hate if for all of you

As a teacher I can tell you each new class brought their own germs. After a bit we all got used to each other's germs and things got better. I am hopeful things will level out as far a not being so ill from the *little petri dishes* (said with love LOL)

Dirk · Dec 30, 2023

kimkats said:
PLEASE tell me you have all of this in writing to and from him!! If not then do an email such as: "As discussed on *date/time* you suggested x. That is not acceptable. On *date/time* we agreed on y. That is the only acceptable path forward." Send it to him read receipt.

Preach! It really is important you do this.

It accomplishes a few things. It keeps everyone on the same page. It establishes your expectations crystal clear. And it creates a paper trail of your conversations, which, unless your contractor is a complete dunce, sends a message loud and clear: "Don't mess with me, you're going to do the job correctly or you could possibly face some legal ramifications, for which I am building my case and its evidence."

It's a message you don't have to say out loud, or use as a threat (yet). It's an undercurrent which the builder will realize means you're not to be taken advantage of: "Go make up your profit loss on some other unsuspecting customer, not me!"

In addition to making it sound like you're preparing a potential law suit, you'd actually be preparing one! We don't need to go down that road yet, you want to make this all work out with your builder. That's going to get you the best end result with the least stress. But should things go south, building this paper trail will pay off big time. You'll have all the facts straight, and it'll be clear to all parties you did what you were supposed to do to avoid any problems.

sll0037 · Jan 8, 2024

We have a hard freeze coming Sat/Sun and we expect it to last several days.

Is there anything that needs to be done to protect the pool at this stage?

A couple days ago I pressure tested the plumbing to 30 PSI and it’s been holding pressure fine.

Should I open the valve to drain as much water as possible on Friday? I’d suspect the main areas at risk are where all the pipes tie together at the pad.
Waterfall pipes are stubbed out and may be susceptible
Anything with the skimmers or drains?

I’ve also been pumping the pool out but I’ll likely still have a bit of water in the deep end.

Dirk · Jan 8, 2024

Remind me, were you the one with the filter installed and pressure tested? I think you'll want to drain the filter and blow out the pipes, empty the skimmer. Just think like water expanding into ice. A puddle of water in the pool should be OK.

@ajw22 will know.

ajw22 · Jan 8, 2024

sll0037 said:
We have a hard freeze coming Sat/Sun and we expect it to last several days.

Is there anything that needs to be done to protect the pool at this stage?

A couple days ago I pressure tested the plumbing to 30 PSI and it’s been holding pressure fine.

Should I open the valve to drain as much water as possible on Friday? I’d suspect the main areas at risk are where all the pipes tie together at the pad.

Waterfall pipes are stubbed out and may be susceptible

Anything with the skimmers or drains?

I’ve also been pumping the pool out but I’ll likely still have a bit of water in the deep end.

I would be a bit concerned with water in pipes Sunday through Tuesaday.

Draining pipes will not be sufficient. You need to blow water out of the pipes. Otherwise water can pool in low spots in the pipes and at elbows.

Are the pipe trenches backfilled with dirt or open? The ground should insulate buried pipes and it will not stay freezing long enough for underground pipes to freeze.

sll0037 · Jan 9, 2024

Dirk said:
Remind me, were you the one with the filter installed and pressure tested? I think you'll want to drain the filter and blow out the pipes, empty the skimmer. Just think like water expanding into ice. A puddle of water in the pool should be OK.

@ajw22 will know.

I don’t have any equipment installed.

The plumbing is just connected together like a manifold at the pad.

ajw22 said:
View attachment 548991

I would be a bit concerned with water in pipes Sunday through Tuesaday.

Draining pipes will not be sufficient. You need to blow water out of the pipes. Otherwise water can pool in low spots in the pipes and at elbows.

Are the pipe trenches backfilled with dirt or open? The ground should insulate buried pipes and it will not stay freezing long enough for underground pipes to freeze.

The plumbing trenches are already back filled.

I have exposed plumbing at the pad where everything comes up from the ground and is connected together like a manifold for pressure testing.

Otherwise, I have three pipes sticking up for the water falls that have caps on them and they are exposed.

The skimmers are exposed.

And the faces of the main drains and wall suction are exposed.

All of the returns are still sticking out from the gunite and exposed.

I’ll get some pics tomorrow but this is the gist of it.

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