Converted Hot Spring Grandee to Freshwater Salt System

Well, I said it before and will say it again ... less is more. Aqua Clarity may, (MAY), help ... or not. Any time you have that strong smell its more than likely chloramines from failure to maintain adequate sanitation. The SWG system probably will not do more than maintain your minimum when not in use, but get in and additional chlorinator is needed.

I suggested before reading the sticky, going to suggest that again.

Also, I don't know why you say you will change the salt cell in 4-6 months. Did you buy a new and improved model with built-in self destruct? They should last much longer than that... (kidding on the self destruct, maybe it's me that's self destructive ).

I do hope you get in the groove with your hot tub, but without the basics I fear a SWG is just going to make things harder when it really should simplify care. On your CYA question, 30 is about what you want --- it will make chlorination less harsh on the skin, and give you a better "buffer range" of what you use up getting in. Just weigh the dichlor and you will probably know more accurately than testing what your CYA level is.

Oh, Ahh-Some! IS purging. You may need to do it again if you let stuff grow in it due to low sanitation levels. It may be expensive to dump and refill, but a trip to the doctor for a bacterial rash probably costs more. Water, re-heating, redoing chemicals, yeah --- nobody want to. But...

Also, because I'm very long winded, dumping at 2-3 months isn't as bad an idea as it sounds. One of our most-expert contributors made a believer out of me on that point --- link.

Last! Not sure what you meant by getting rid of phosphates. Hopefully not by additives.

mayberry32 said:

I have had my hot tub about 6 months and was doing fine following the liquid chlorine dosing used here. Sometimes, though, the water had a strong smell, and I could never leave town for more than 5 days without having someone manually dose with chlorine while I was gone. Also, I had to dose with chlorine every time I was in the tub, and found I really wanted a system that could help with that. So, I finally converted. Such a simple process. I've already flushed with Ahhsome twice after getting the tub, so I didn't need to purge. I also use Aqua Clarity weekly. So, I just drained, fresh fill, got rid of all phosphates and balanced all my chemistry. I had to add probably 3 teaspoons of granular chlorine to get it started up, but since then, over the past week, the salt system has maintained chlorine levels perfectly. I am thrilled. And the water feels so much more gentle on my skin. I also added the silver cartridge to the filter, at the suggestion of the dealer. Not sure it's necessary and I'll read more before I have to change my salt cell in 4-6 months. Very good conversion for any looking, though. I'm very happy so far.

My only two questions at this point are:
- I assume I can continue using Aqua Clarity with the saltwater system and it'll work just as well as with the chlorine. I don't think there's a difference there, but thought I should ask.
- Starting up using only a bit of granular chlorine, I didn't get the buildup of cya that I did with the chlorine. But, I'm not sure it's even necessary to get it up to 20-30 in a hot tub that's running saltwater. Is this normal and I should just leave it alone?

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You want cya in the tub so you can chlorinate at adequate levels to prevent you from falling to zero. For example 2ppm fc can be consumed quite quickly in a spa with 2 people in it.
It also buffers the harshness of said adequate fc levels on people & equipment.
You still follow the dichlor then bleach method & the
FC/CYA Levels (i follow the chlorine recommendations not the swg ones since the bather load is so intense in a spa).
The only difference is that your swg is feeding your spa around the clock during standby instead of you manually dosing. Your swg may even handle the fc demand for some light soaks. I have a swg & I find that in my small spa if I set it to make up for all fc demand (stand by & bather loads) that during standby/idle times my fc will run a little too high so I choose to have it set to just mainly handle the standby chlorine & I can always add a little liquid chlorine if needed during/ after use especially for long soaks/multiple people since I am there after all. I also find that I need a little dichlor every week or so to replenish my cya as it gets depleted in my 104 degree water. As always, let your testing be your guide.

My better half and I usually get in for 15 minutes, so 1/2 bather-hours. We know from testing in our 515 gallon tub by next morning from our nighttime soak CHL consumption is 5 ppm per bather-hour. So after we get out I dump in to cover 2 1/2.

Trying to measure at night after soaking didn't work, maybe what "waste products" we left in the filter took time to be "neutralized" with accompanying CHL drop, so, that drop wasn't apparent until the next day.

if you maintain at 3 minimum I can almost guarantee it's not enough. If there's "a smell" it's chlorimines. Problem is testing asks for an additional drop to insure color change is done - which I think sometimes "swamps" the CC reading. Over .5 CC bad, under is good never worked for me so I run CYA higher and raise CHL minimum.

If in doubt on CC I either push CHL higher or throw in a bit of MPS. Know that MPS "complicates" things, as does your phosphate remover. I recommend NOT using it, or anything else except the basics in the sticky. It won't do you any good to read that sticky if you don't follow it... (sorry, but I'm guilty of that too - MPS, keeping water too long, etc.)

Bottom line, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Smell = chlorimines = sanitation issue. Maybe it's not rocket science, but sometimes it seems like it for simple-a&& me.

Low cya for extended periods of time is rough on stuff- don’t end up like me with my stainless steel jet after being lax about cya

Methuselah said:

Did you buy a new and improved model with built-in self destruct?

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Depending on the system, maybe. Some spa systems use a replaceable "cartridge" cell that burns out pretty quick but is relatively cheap and easy to replace. Pretty sure the watkins is one of those, but I haven't seen one myself.

Methuselah said:

chloramines from failure to maintain adequate sanitation.

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Chloramines are the inevitable result of chlorine sanitation and must be oxidized out with a high chlorine dose or some other form of oxidation. In my experience this is accomplished to some degree by a salt cell, presumeably by the locally high chlorine levels within the cell itself, but I don't know for sure.
A good ozone or uv system will also do the job.

mayberry32 said:

I'm not sure it's even necessary to get it up to 20-30

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Follow manufacturers instructions. You might be surprised just how much cya they say to use, and some other recommended levels as well.

mayberry32 said:

But I still got some of the offgassing smell occasionally. I tested Cc’s at those times and they were 0, so that wasn’t it.

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What smell exactly?
Many odors can become trapped beneath the cover, so you smell it (or it knocks you over having stolen all your oxygen and curled your nose-hair) when you open it, but then it's gone, with no sign of it in a test. Chloramines smell like chlorine, or more acurately they are what we smell that we call chlorine, and just because you can smell their oxidized remains does not mean there are any left in the water. Not much air circulation under a cover.
Likewise if you're using it, you're turning FC to CC and smelling it even as the FC reacts to it.
Now, if you only smell it when the jets turn on it's a fair indication of biofilm, leaks or chemicals inside the cabinet, or you keep a chlorine puck in your filter.

mayberry32 said:

we’ll see how long they last with me.

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They are very ph sensitive, so follow manufacturers instructions.

mayberry32 said:

Just wanted to make sure it wouldn’t hurt with the salt system for some reason.

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@Ahhsomeguy , you have a call on line 1.

Mdragger88 said:

don’t end up like me with my stainless steel jet after being lax about cya

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I always found rusted, pitted stainless with customers who maintain a high sanitizer level and had low ph (often from using tablets) and have always thought it that. I'm sure you were not making those mistakes, so I find it intriguing that you suspect low cya. Having seen this on bromine spas as well, I'm not sure what to think now. Getting a bit too sciencey for my pay, calling @JoyfulNoise .

Methuselah said:

Over .5 CC bad, under is good never worked for me

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As I understand it (as taught by the locally beloved CPO training) to oxidize cc takes 10x that amount of fc (at the allowed cya of 30 ppm for outdoor and 0 ppm for indoor). That is the formula we were required to use. So 0.5 cc can be eliminated by raising fc by 5, which is generally within normal operating range for the spa. No need to "shock" beyond what your fc already has, or close the spa (if public fc has a max, at least where I worked), or half-dump, or any of that. But if your cc is 1, now you need +10ppm fc, and your public spa is closed for hours. Therefore, less than 0.5 IS good, and more than that IS bad. It's not about your personal feelings. Moral of the story is that 0 is ideal and should be the goal.
That's why I love me some 24/7 ozone.

Methuselah said:

if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

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I have 5 kids, and have quacked, barked, growled, chirped, meowed, moo-ed, b'aaah-ed, hissed, hooted, snorted, and cock-a-doodle-doo(ed) too many times to count. So just what are you trying to say there, pal?

Good Morning Mayberry32:

You asked: I assume I can continue using Aqua Clarity with the saltwater system and it'll work just as well as with the chlorine. I don't think there's a difference there, but thought I should ask.

Aqua Clarity can be used with any and all sanitizers. There are 4 main advantages you will find with using Aqua Clarity.
1. Salt Cell life can and should be extended. You can usually turn your delivery rate down during normal operation since the cell plates will be continually cleaned of scale that contributes to output issues.
2. Your water will soften as the weeks go by with it's use. Soft and Silky feel is what you are experiencing.
3. Water Clarity is enhanced as particulates and floaters are bound together allowing for ultra fine filtration.
4. You can purge and drain less often because using Aqua Clarity weekly is aiding in the removal of biofilms continuously before they colonize than can cause foaming, use of additional sanitizer and cloudy water.

You really need just the Aqua Clarity and sanitizer. Nothing else. You must keep the CYA, pH and TA in acceptable ranges for optimum results.

RDspaguy said:

Therefore, less than 0.5 IS good, and more than that IS bad. It's not about your personal feelings. Moral of the story is that 0 is ideal and should be the goal.

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I was referring to testing inaccuracies ... (personally) it's hard to distinguish a level around .5 as over or under.

Thanks for chiming in and the info on the self destructing cells

As to chlorimines I believe it's a sanitation issue from "reading between the lines" and rereading the the first thread when @mayberry32 first started using the tub.

Sorry you don't like duck, wife thinks they're delicious

Generally speaking, submerged steel components are a bad idea no matter what. There’s a reason why navies and sailors around the world love brass

Pitting corrosion is a type of corrosion that is found on all metal materials when subjected to moisture but steels are especially susceptible especially in chloride rich waters (recreational water bodies are very chloride rich). There are grades of stainless steel that are designed to resist pitting corrosion and grades that are not suitable. As you might guess, steel grades that are more resistant are also more expensive and, as we all know, hot tub manufacturers don’t like to use expensive components. Recreational water bodies see all kinds of swings in pH, temperate, oxidizer levels, etc, etc., so corrosion is bound to happen. One can make it worse or stall it for a time, but it will always happen. All the consumer can do is try their best in maintaining good tub chemistry, don’t let bad water sit around for ages trying to squeeze “one last week out of it”, and buy tubs that are simple and easy to replace components on. And, like a car mechanic, find a good pro to take care of the tub when you need it serviced or parts replaced as tubs tend to have many more quirks and brand-specific design weirdness that only the pro’s can keep straight. Pools, in my opinion, lend themselves to DIY work much more easily than hot tubs.

@Ahhsomeguy

Dump water every 2-3 months?

In a "system" where less is more, I can see a VERY legitimate NEED to purge and DUMP a tub that may have biofilm(s). Continually trying to release them so I can soak in them not so much.

An assumption ANY product (Aqua Clarity) will be used in accordance with directions or best practices at best is "hopeful", at worst I leave to the imagination. No disrespect intended.

Great point. However, any supposed biofilms released on a continuous basis as I say can occur while using the "AC", should be filtered out rather quickly since they typically float on the top of the water where your filter compartment suction is greatest to draw them in so the filter(s) collect them. In addition to this is the fact that these bio-fouling particles are now in a planktonic state and your sanitizer, if sufficient levels are maintained, will oxidize them quickly. However, your wish to purge and drain quarterly it can't hurt for sure. It is just that you will notice that there will be little discoloration forming at the waterline after a purge that often while using the AC product. I will tell you what I do in my 720 gallon hot tub.
I add the Aqua Clarity weekly, typically Sunday late afternoon, we use the tub at least 4-6 times weekly and sometimes twice a day since I use the hot water for relief of arthritis and sciatica. I'm getting older you do realize.
I have the insulated 2 inch aluminum cover by cover pools. I purge only once a year now since I get practically zero gunk released. I seldom drain all the water out when I do the purge. Before the Aqua Clarity I purged every 6 months and had a tremendous release and drained completely. I follow the TFP chemical maintenance program. I have never ever had anything but crystal clear glistening water that is soft and very comfortable.
My filter cycle is only 3 hours per day and high jet cycle is 5 minutes daily other than the run time I use when we are frequenting the hot tub. I clean my 125 square foot cartridge filter twice annually with just a garden hose spray off.

Methuselah said:

was referring to testing inaccuracies ... (personally) it's hard to distinguish a level around .5 as over or under.

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Gotcha.
I used to work with a guy that was the lead maintenance tech for a major commercial pool company. This was the guy you called in when everyone else was scratching their heads. Came to find out that he was colorblind and had been faking his tests for decades, using look, smell, taste, and feel to actually determine what he would add. He said he'd use the test kit if people were around but if not he didn't even bother. He only got caught because the boss had me running cross-training classes during the winter and I had everyone testing a small sample of water. I immediately ordered him a digital meter, but don't know if he ever used it. He obviously didn't need it.

Methuselah said:

Sorry you don't like duck, wife thinks they're delicious

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I tried raising ducks one year, but it seems that my dogs consider chickens to be livestock that needs protecting and ducks to be breakfast. The dogs apparently agree with your wife, but I wouldn't know.

JoyfulNoise said:

Generally speaking, submerged steel components are a bad idea no matter what.

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I've seen SS handrails above water line with holes eaten through. Stainless is only stainless under normal atmospheric conditions, and not even 100% then. And "stainless" covers an array of alloys with different properties.
Also, many jet escutions are chrome plated and those tend to have more issues, I guess as the chrome wears/deteriorates and exposes the steel but that's a guess. Definitely not a metallurgist, but when they rust only on the front where people lean against them it's likely a clue.

JoyfulNoise said:

tubs tend to have many more quirks and brand-specific design weirdness that only the pro’s can keep straight.

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No we can't. But thanks for the vote of confidence, it means alot.

As for my jet faceplate - watkins says its stainless steel but they don’t elaborate any further than that. Being as how I have a budget yeti cooler tub I would imagine it’s not the most durable grade so it would have likely happened sooner or later. The reason I believe it occurred so suddenly is that I realized I had zero cya right after it appeared. It had been a while since I tested cya & all the while I was still running fc levels of 6-12ppm like I had 30ppm cya. Apparently my skin isn’t too terribly sensitive so I didn’t notice until I tested. All other parameters were spot on. I test fc & ph on an almost daily basis & I rarely need to add acid. My ph hangs between 7.6 & 7.8 usually.

Ahhsomeguy said:

I clean my 125 square foot cartridge filter twice annually with just a garden hose spray off.

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I've got a single paper filter. If I had too guess closer to 125 square inches than 125 square feet.

Mdragger88 said:

fc levels of 6-12ppm

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Yikes! I'd have had a public pool (or spa) closed on me for 12ppm. That's a shock in my book, and people should not be in the water. Is that really what tfp recommends? I thought the rule was "The EPA is always right".

Methuselah said:

I've got a single paper filter. If I had too guess closer to 125 square inches than 125 square feet.

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Most spa filters are between 25 and 50 sq ft, but there are exceptions on both ends.

That’s acceptable fc levels for 30ppm cya
FC/CYA Levels
Most public pools aren’t even allowed to have cya so the fc limits are lower.

Mdragger88 said:

Most public pools aren’t even allowed to have cya so the fc limits are lower.

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The only restrictions on CYA that I am aware of are for indoor pools. But it has been many years since I worked on anything public, or anything pool for that matter. I've had them closed for too much cya, but never for having 30ppm. And many apartment pools used inline trichlor erosion feeders, so cya was unavoidable. Only the big municipal pools had real automation and liquid feeders.

RDspaguy said:

The only restrictions on CYA that I am aware of are for indoor pools. But it has been many years since I worked on anything public, or anything pool for that matter. I've had them closed for too much cya, but never for having 30ppm. And many apartment pools used inline trichlor erosion feeders, so cya was unavoidable. Only the big municipal pools had real automation and liquid feeders.

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The government public rules & traditional pool care says 1-3ppm is ok & 10ppm is shock level without taking into account cya or no which we know is not fully accurate.
It is absolutely safe for swimmers & equipment w/ fc anywhere between minimum & slam level for your cya if you have any.
Obviously you don’t wanna be keeping slam level all the time for the life of your tub (which I don’t) but after large bather loads I do raise fc to slam level with liquid chlorine, as my swg only set to take care of my standby fc. I don’t want to have constantly adjust it. I don’t have ozone or uv to oxidize cc’s either.