pool renovation options and timeline

sdtfp · Jan 23, 2023

EDIT- pictures:

https://imgur.com/a/Wu6Uvkl

I'm considering renovating my pool. Its an anthony style gunnite pool, with 1 skimmer, 2 returns and 1 vacuum port (used as a water fountain). I have a DE filter with separation tank. I use liquid chlorine. I moved in a few years ago, and I don't know how old the pool is or when it was last resurfaced, but based on talking to some pool companies, it seems like at minimum I will need to resurface it in the coming years. They said once my feet get hurt from the floor then I will definitely need it. It's still mostly smooth. Secondly, I got some holes in the coping stones and they said about 8 of the coping stones sound hollow so they said that will need to be replaced eventually as well. They said they dont make that style anymore so if I replace one it wouldnt be the same size as the others and it would look wrong. Since I am making some big changes anyhow, they also mentioned I could do some other things while they are there to modernize the pool. I am a bit overwhelmed about all the options.
Some things they mentioned that I am considering:
1. One company told me to add a second skimmer for better circulation. They would put it on the opposite side in a diagonal of the original skimmer. My filter area is about 20 feet from the pool, so they said its not a big distance. However, the new skimmer would be all the way around the pool and that seems to be pretty long to me. But it didn't seem to bother the pool company.
2. They mentioned to drop DE filter and separation tank. Based on my reading here, I think I want a cartridge filter and SWG. At this point, that means a complete gut of everything in the pool filter area. So they would also do a variable speed pump. The quote says:

And

.I also need to considerredoing the filter area pad. It just a bunch of large stones now., so i probably need concrete, but no one mentioned it. Can I do that later or should pool renovation guys do that or do I need a GC?
3. My pool light niche metal hardware seems to be messed up and i cant properly screw in the cap. So replacing that is an option and going to an LED light instead of the 110v? line.
4. Replace my original skimmer. I believe they mentioned there are some regulations now that Anthony style pools don't meet for entrapment. So I guess it wouldn't be an anthony style pool anymore. My skimmer does have some putty holding back a leak, but its in decent shape otherwise.
5. Add h2o replenish line. Seems like an easy thing, but never heard anyone mention it here.
6. Add water heater. I have the gas line already there as it looks like the pool had it before but no idea why they removed it. I am a bit worried that it wont work and ill get charged extra for fixing the gas line. But that is probably a plumber thing.
7. resurfacing and replacing all coping. This is what I initially was worried about, so I think I do need this, just a matter of how long I am willing to wait to get it.

In all, the total seems to be around 60k and I can't afford that. So I am looking for some advice on whether any of these items are not needed not really worth the price. For instance, adding a second skimmer sounds nice as I have poor water circulation and I have a ton of trees around and it takes a while to skim the surface. But then again, if I go out there everyday for like 30 minutes a day, its not an issue. Specially after spring is over.

However, I do worry that since coping is coming off, then this would be a great opportunity to do this work. So if everything sounds like a good idea, is there anyway to space it out? Like do half the things this year and the other half next year? Or even better would be over multiple years. I think whenever I do the coping, that exposes the plumbing, so thats when I need to do other things. Is that correct?

If I cant spread things out over time, I think I would just do the resurfacing and coping stones now. Keep everything else the same and perhaps just live with it until i move out in 15+ years. Is that okay to do? What would you guys do?

PoolStored · Jan 23, 2023

sdtfp said:
1. One company told me to add a second skimmer for better circulation. They would put it on the opposite side in a diagonal of the original skimmer. My filter area is about 20 feet from the pool, so they said its not a big distance. However, the new skimmer would be all the way around the pool and that seems to be pretty long to me. But it didn't seem to bother the pool company.

A picture might help. Generally, you want the skimmer facing prevailing winds (so stuff gets blown to the skimmers. My pool has two skimmers. There was a crack and previous owner had capped it off. I ran the first year on one skimmer (30K gallon pool) and it worked fine. If you hand handle the bit of work to clean, one skimmer isn't a real problem.

sdtfp said:
2. They mentioned to drop DE filter and separation tank. Based on my reading here, I think I want a cartridge filter and SWG. At this point, that means a complete gut of everything in the pool filter area. So they would also do a variable speed pump. The quote says:

And

What is the ACTUAL make and model of the VSP and the cartridge filter? What is the size of the salt cell? (hint you want at least a 40K cell for your pool). Have them specify make and model of all equipment in the quote.

sdtfp said:
3. My pool light niche metal hardware seems to be messed up and i cant properly screw in the cap. So replacing that is an option and going to an LED light instead of the 110v? line.

Not sure what the question is? The only differences between 110 and LED are the look the light puts off, and there will need to be a transformer placed somewhere for the LED.

sdtfp said:
4. Replace my original skimmer. I believe they mentioned there are some regulations now that Anthony style pools don't meet for entrapment. So I guess it wouldn't be an anthony style pool anymore. My skimmer does have some putty holding back a leak, but its in decent shape otherwise.

The main drain doesn't really do much and if you capped it off, you wouldn't notice any difference in water quality. I don't have a main drain and it works just fine. Many builders are now building pools without main drains because of studies like this one:

http://www.poolinspections.com/manuals/drains/pools-without-drains.pdf

sdtfp said:
5. Add h2o replenish line. Seems like an easy thing, but never heard anyone mention it here.

In NYC? I would think that you get enough rain, and if you needed a bit of water, you can run your hose. Fills are great in areas with high evaporation (NV, TX, CA etc.)

sdtfp said:
6. Add water heater. I have the gas line already there as it looks like the pool had it before but no idea why they removed it. I am a bit worried that it wont work and ill get charged extra for fixing the gas line. But that is probably a plumber thing.

You need to make sure your gas line is big enough for the heater. Check with your HVAC people and your gas company, have your heater size handy. They should be able to recommend a solution. The easiest solution would be to change the pressure and add a regulator near the heater. The line capacity is determined by diameter and pressure. By increasing the pressure, you should be able to get enough flow to the heater. The regulator will convert the pressure to the right pressure for the heater. Or you may need a new meter.

sdtfp said:
7. resurfacing and replacing all coping. This is what I initially was worried about, so I think I do need this, just a matter of how long I am willing to wait to get it.

Without pics, going to be really hard to help. Can you post some pics of the areas in question?

HermanTX · Jan 23, 2023

Wow, you have a lot to consider. I would break it down into 2 main categories - pool remodeling and pool equipment.

Equipment can be changed out at any time and can be done in stages so that cost can be spread out. I would as a minimum have a concrete pad laid down that is big enough for any equipment you plan to add.
A VS pump and cartridge filter will be great. Before purchasing a heater, determine if your current gas supply can handle it. You may need the city to upgrade your meter (usually they cover the cost of that as they know you will using more gas).
Do you have a spa? That is where a heater is helpful if you wish to have that capability. Maybe a picture of your pool & spa would help.
Do you really need automation? If you have a spa and you wish to have some convenience, then automation will help.
If you also are serious about upgrading to SWCG then you need to purchase the SWCG from the same manufacturer as the automation. That way it all works together. Get a mfg. and model number of each piece of equipment and we can provide guidance on that. For example, the automation you indicated is made by Jandy, so you could also purchase the SWCG and VS pump from Jandy to ensure all of it worked together.

You do not NEED a second skimmer. Nice to have but it would require breaking into the existing pool shell to add it. This can lead to other issues but it can be done.

If your plaster is getting soft in areas or starting to chip then it is failing. 10-15 years for plaster is good - some can go longer depending on how well the initial plaster job was done and how well the chemistry of the pool water was maintained.
Pictures of the coping will help us to provide some guidance. Can the original coping be salvaged?

sdtfp · Jan 23, 2023

@PoolStored @HermanTX I added some pictures to OP.

I think maybe it might be helpful if I had an idea of the order things can be done in. My guess is:

1. Replace skimmer, niche light, add second skimmer (unconnected?) and resurface pool
2. replace coping, plumb in new skimmer and redo plumbling from pool to pool pad
3. replace pool equipent pad - requires removing and putting back all the existing equipment
4. replace DE filter with cartridge filter and add swg
5. replace pool pump
6. add heater
7. replace/improve concrete deck (aesthetics)

Each numbered item can be done separate from the other. The ordering can change somewhat, so just looking for an efficient order that leads to less cost.

Another thing I just remembered is that I do want to improve the concrete deck around the pool. I am hoping that can be done after everything else whenever I can afford it. Not sure what I would do there, it just looks ugly and dirty right now. Might just need a power wash and paint job. But I am concerned the new pool plumbing will break one section of the concrete deck and that will have to be redone.

PoolStored · Jan 23, 2023

sdtfp said:
Each numbered item can be done separate from the other. The ordering can change somewhat, so just looking for an efficient order that leads to less cost.

Order is really dependent on your needs/ desires.

Based on cost and efficiency...this is what I would do.

To me, I wouldn't replace the skimmer nor add a second skimmer. It is working at the moment, when you do these kinds of changes, they always lead to more and more. Not worth the hassles and other issues. I'd cap the main.

Maintaining the water will go the longest way toward maintaining the pool/plaster and the amount of time you need to spend on maintenance. I'd get a pad poured, install a VSP, SWCG, heater and a cartridge filter. This will make maintaining it so much easier. In Ohio, I loooooove my heater and SWCG.

I'd clean the deck and leave it until there was some damage, or it starts deteriorating. It looks like it is in pretty good condition.

I still don't understand the issues with the coping. Not sure, without more details, how to make a recommendation there. Are they Failing? What do the "holes" look like? There are some concrete leveling foams that can act as "structure" to support the coping. Don't get the "sound hollow" part. If they mean they think the support underneath is gone, again there are fixes to that. Can you give us more here?

ajw22 · Jan 23, 2023

View it as three projects.

The biggest project and most expensive is the stuff internal to the pool. That all needs to be done together.

1. Replace skimmer, niche light, add second skimmer (unconnected?) and resurface pool
2. replace coping, plumb in new skimmer and redo plumbling from pool to pool pad
+ upgrade drains to meet VGBA safety requirements

Then you have the pool equipment pad upgrades. That can be done in whatever pieces your budget allows. Or as things fail and need replacement.

3. replace pool equipent pad - requires removing and putting back all the existing equipment
4. replace DE filter with cartridge filter and add swg
5. replace pool pump
6. add heater

Finally you have the deck replacement. That can be done whenever budget allows. You can live with your deck as is for as long as necessary.

As far as equipment I would not put in LED lights that have poor reliability. Install Pentair Amerilites and replace the bulbs with a LED bulb if you want.

Have a plumber check the gas line to your pool,pad and tell you what size heater it can support.

Get at least the Aqualink RS6 or RS8 and not the RS4 for future expansion. And think about getting Pentair equipment instead of Jandy.

sdtfp · Jan 23, 2023

PoolStored said:
Order is really dependent on your needs/ desires.

Based on cost and efficiency...this is what I would do.

To me, I wouldn't replace the skimmer nor add a second skimmer. It is working at the moment, when you do these kinds of changes, they always lead to more and more. Not worth the hassles and other issues. I'd cap the main.

Maintaining the water will go the longest way toward maintaining the pool/plaster and the amount of time you need to spend on maintenance. I'd get a pad poured, install a VSP, SWCG, heater and a cartridge filter. This will make maintaining it so much easier. In Ohio, I loooooove my heater and SWCG.

I'd clean the deck and leave it until there was some damage, or it starts deteriorating. It looks like it is in pretty good condition.

I still don't understand the issues with the coping. Not sure, without more details, how to make a recommendation there. Are they Failing? What do the "holes" look like? There are some concrete leveling foams that can act as "structure" to support the coping. Don't get the "sound hollow" part. If they mean they think the support underneath is gone, again there are fixes to that. Can you give us more here?

I agree, the extra skimmer scares me as I dont know what I am doing. Good to hear that I can skip it. I was just afraid that its a no brainer for modernizing a pool and skipping it would be a mistake.

For coping, I forgot to add the picture below. This one had a hole in it and i patched it myself. The hole went down to the skimmer. I know nothing of concrete and such so I hope what i did is right and it lasts. I used "E-Z Patch 5 White Coping Stone Repair." The other coping stones are in good shape, but the pool guy tapped on them with the metal pool cover stick and some of them were hollow. I don't know what that means or how long I have before they start getting holes like the one pictures. Also, one complication is that I can't just replace one coping as they dont make them that size anymore, so it will look bad and maybe unsafe as it will stick out. So the question becomes, if I am already resurfacing the pool, does this become a good time for replacing coping. Or do I wait on the coping?

sdtfp · Jan 23, 2023

ajw22 said:
View it as three projects.

The biggest project and most expensive is the stuff internal to the pool. That all needs to be done together.

1. Replace skimmer, niche light, add second skimmer (unconnected?) and resurface pool
2. replace coping, plumb in new skimmer and redo plumbling from pool to pool pad
+ upgrade drains to meet VGBA safety requirements

Then you have the pool equipment pad upgrades. That can be done in whatever pieces your budget allows. Or as things fail and need replacement.

3. replace pool equipent pad - requires removing and putting back all the existing equipment
4. replace DE filter with cartridge filter and add swg
5. replace pool pump
6. add heater

Finally you have the deck replacement. That can be done whenever budget allows. You can live with your deck as is for as long as necessary.

As far as equipment I would not put in LED lights that have poor reliability. Install Pentair Amerilites and replace the bulbs with a LED bulb if you want.

Have a plumber check the gas line to your pool,pad and tell you what size heater it can support.

Get at least the Aqualink RS6 or RS8 and not the RS4 for future expansion. And think about getting Pentair equipment instead of Jandy.

Thanks that is what I am looking for and seems more manageable.

If I don't add the extra skimmer, do I still redo the plumbing from pool to pool pad? The plumbling at the filter pad is 2" pvc so I assume its the same under ground. Does the anthony style play a role in this decision? From what I understand most people have two holes in the bottom of their skimmer and I only have one. The main drain and skimmer line is like a "T". Should I improve on that design while replacing the coping stone? I get the impression that when you pull up the coping stone, it gives access to the plumbing area. But to be honest, I am not really sure what it all means.

ajw22 · Jan 23, 2023

I think not installing a second skimmer would be a mistake with all the investment you are putting into the pool refurbishment. You don’t want to end up with a refurbuished pool with poor circulation.

It can be difficult replacing coping without damaging tile and possibly plaster. It all depends how the plaster, tile, and coping are built up. Also if you find bond beam damage when you redo the tile it can require coping removal. So plan to replace the coping with the tile and plaster.

sdtfp said:
If I don't add the extra skimmer, do I still redo the plumbing from pool to pool pad? The plumbling at the filter pad is 2" pvc so I assume its the same under ground.

I would not assume that.

sdtfp said:
Does the anthony style play a role in this decision?

I don’t know what Anthony style means.

sdtfp said:
From what I understand most people have two holes in the bottom of their skimmer and I only have one.

You do not have a VGBA compliant main drain. It either needs to be upgraded or closed up.

You do not need a main drain on a 4’ 2” deep pool. Is that really the maximum pool depth?

If you close the main drain then you definitely need to add another skimmer.

sdtfp said:
The main drain and skimmer line is like a "T". Should I improve on that design while replacing the coping stone?

You either upgrade the main drain for VGBA safety or close it up.

Safety Drains VGBA - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

sdtfp · Jan 23, 2023

ajw22 said:
I think not installing a second skimmer would be a mistake with all the investment you are putting into the pool refurbishment. You don’t want to end up with a refurbuished pool with poor circulation.

It can be difficult replacing coping without damaging tile and possibly plaster. It all depends how the plaster, tile, and coping are built up. Also if you find bond beam damage when you redo the tile it can require coping removal. So plan to replace the coping with the tile and plaster.

I would not assume that.

I don’t know what Anthony style means.

You do not have a VGBA compliant main drain. It either needs to be upgraded or closed up.

You do not need a main drain on a 4’ 2” deep pool. Is that really the maximum pool depth?

If you close the main drain then you definitely need to add another skimmer.

You either upgrade the main drain for VGBA safety or close it up.

Safety Drains VGBA - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

yes its a very shallow pool!
The pool guys did mention they would replace the drain cover. It says "remove and install new main drain and AV covers". I dont believe they had mentioned closing the main drain. Is that something difficult for them to do? AFAIK on an anthony style pool and probably most pools, the main drain does little to nothing as the skimmer just takes water from surface water instead of going against gravity with the main drain. So do most people close their drain? I don't know enough to say whether closing the main drain makes sense or not. But I do have an issue with closing my pool which requires a two tier pipe plug like DOUBLE PLUG #9/#8 SYLVAN. I think i would rather have a normal setup.

PoolStored · Jan 23, 2023

sdtfp said:
I don't know enough to say whether closing the main drain makes sense or not.

You don't need it. It is very easy to close off. It makes the winterization process MUCH easier. It is the least expensive way to get it VGBA compliant.

I have an 8' deep 30K gallon, 20x40 pool with no drain. Works great.

PoolStored · Jan 23, 2023

@sdtfp In thinking about this some more, if your ultimate goal is to have everything completed...but want to have time to save, or spend over time rather than 1 expensive job, then I'd think about it this way.

Fix the light, replace the equipment pad and the equipment, put in the new light. Close off the main. You are functional and safe. Will make closing and water maintenance easier.

I'd wait until the coping fails, or it is time to replaster, or you hate the deck, then I'd do the plaster, coping, 2nd skimmer and the deck. This would give you time to enjoy the pool and save money for the ultimate repairs. Putting in the skimmer now is going to tear up the deck and potentially damage the coping. These types of changes always turn into something bigger. Having the deck open, you can plumb, put in skimmer, do the coping and the plaster in one go.

I agree @ajw22, because of your circulation problems, that a second skimmer would be beneficial. However you can run until then with one.

ajw22 · Jan 23, 2023

sdtfp said:
The pool guys did mention they would replace the drain cover. It says "remove and install new main drain and AV covers".

If they are replacing the cover it must be VGBA compliant.

sdtfp said:
I dont believe they had mentioned closing the main drain. Is that something difficult for them to do?

They fill the main drain hole with hydraulic cement to close it permanently.

sdtfp said:
AFAIK on an anthony style pool and probably most pools, the main drain does little to nothing as the skimmer just takes water from surface water instead of going against gravity with the main drain.

That is one of a few ways a main drain can be plumbed.

sdtfp said:
So do most people close their drain? I don't know enough to say whether closing the main drain makes sense or not.

Most people don’t have a 4’ 6” deep pool. Your main drain is like an appendix with no useful purpose in your pool. In a deeper pool with a main drain connected differently it has a purpose.

Do you have a float valve in your skimmer? The purpose of your main drain is supposed to be if the skimmer water level gets low the pump will pull water from the main drain and not run dry and be damaged. We don’t know if your main drain can do that.

sdtfp said:
But I do have an issue with closing my pool which requires a two tier pipe plug like DOUBLE PLUG #9/#8 SYLVAN. I think i would rather have a normal setup.

Post pics of the inside of your skimmer.

sdtfp · Jan 25, 2023

PoolStored said:
@sdtfp In thinking about this some more, if your ultimate goal is to have everything completed...but want to have time to save, or spend over time rather than 1 expensive job, then I'd think about it this way.

Fix the light, replace the equipment pad and the equipment, put in the new light. Close off the main. You are functional and safe. Will make closing and water maintenance easier.

I'd wait until the coping fails, or it is time to replaster, or you hate the deck, then I'd do the plaster, coping, 2nd skimmer and the deck. This would give you time to enjoy the pool and save money for the ultimate repairs. Putting in the skimmer now is going to tear up the deck and potentially damage the coping. These types of changes always turn into something bigger. Having the deck open, you can plumb, put in skimmer, do the coping and the plaster in one go.

I agree @ajw22, because of your circulation problems, that a second skimmer would be beneficial. However you can run until then with one.

yeah thats another option, do equipment first and then the resurfacing/reno.

@ajw22 skimmer picture attacked. The drain side hole is closed permanently and doesnt go anywhere. Everything is through the other hole. And yeah I supposed it will get some water from main drain if water line falls low. That has happened and the pump starts getting air into and struggling. Maybe by the time i noticed the water line is lower than the line to the pump at that point. So the main drain might be giving me a small amount of leeway when water line drops but not much. In any case, Ive learned to be very uncomfortable running the pump with low water line, so i watch the water line like a hawk.

I am going to ask what the pool company thinks about closing the main drain. Then ask about delaying the filter pad area improvements. I still dont feel comfortable with the job, so hopefully they provide some confidence. I am uncomfortable with both closing the main drain and getting another skimmer.

There is another issue i noticed. One proposal included a 28 day plaster crankup procedure for nearly 5k. From what I remember, the guy mentioned balancing my chemicals was important the first month. And I believe the work wont be warrantied without that. But I cant imagine that would cost 5k! Anyways know what that entails? I dont remember it in the other proposal, so let me check on that.

PoolStored · Jan 25, 2023

sdtfp said:
Anyways know what that entails?

Start-up New Plaster

The first few months are the most criticle for a newly plastered pool. We're here to share best practices to ensure the plaster will last for many years.

www.troublefreepool.com

You should read this too:

Plaster Installation and Maintenance - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

PoolStored · Jan 25, 2023

sdtfp said:
Then ask about delaying the filter pad area improvements. I still dont feel comfortable with the job, so hopefully they provide some confidence. I am uncomfortable with both closing the main drain and getting another skimmer.

I'm not clear on what these few sentences mean...

HermanTX · Jan 25, 2023

sdtfp said:
One proposal included a 28 day plaster crankup procedure for nearly 5k. From what I remember, the guy mentioned balancing my chemicals was important the first month. And I believe the work wont be warrantied without that. But I cant imagine that would cost 5k! Anyways know what that entails?

This sounds like performing the plaster job AND doing the 28 day start up. Some PB throw that 28 day start up in as a perceived "feebe" and others put a fee such as $300. The $5k has to include plaster.

HermanTX · Jan 25, 2023

sdtfp said:
I am uncomfortable with both closing the main drain and getting another skimmer.

If you do not put in the 2nd skimmer, then I would keep the main drain functioning. If you go with the 2nd skimmer then you could close off the main drain. I am a firm believer that any inground pool should have a minimum of 2 suction lines.

ajw22 · Jan 25, 2023

sdtfp said:
There is another issue i noticed. One proposal included a 28 day plaster crankup procedure for nearly 5k. From what I remember, the guy mentioned balancing my chemicals was important the first month. And I believe the work wont be warrantied without that. But I cant imagine that would cost 5k! Anyways know what that entails? I dont remember it in the other proposal, so let me check on that.

5K is a highway robbery.

Review a few of the plaster startup guides to see what is required. It is less than 15 minutes of daily chemical checks.

Plaster Start-Up Guides - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

What test kit do you have? Do you do water chemistry checks now?

sdtfp · Jan 26, 2023

ajw22 said:
5K is a highway robbery.

Review a few of the plaster startup guides to see what is required. It is less than 15 minutes of daily chemical checks.

Plaster Start-Up Guides - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

What test kit do you have? Do you do water chemistry checks now?

I think it makes sense that they included the plaster with the 28 day maintenance, whereas the other company just put the whole resurfacing as 1 line item. I do have the test kit from here and do my own testing. I got to do some math to make sure both companies are charging around the same and I dont need to worry about this, just about which one has a better warranty.

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