Hot Springs Ozone Question

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B

Bouchie

0
Jun 10, 2016
17
Edgewater, MD
Sorry in advance for the long post.

We’ve had our Hot Springs Envoy for about 2 weeks, but we didn’t get the ozone installed until yesterday as it was on backorder.

A little background, for the first weekend we just used chlorine. I was an ignorant new spa owner and didn’t check levels all weekend and we all ended up getting folliculitis, live and learn. Before we actually saw the rash I noticed the water was cloudy, so I added chlorine that morning and night. Took the water to get tested the next day (it was no longer cloudy) and realized our calcium level was at 12. So, they gave me all these instructions to fix that and the pH, and had me superchlorinate the water to sanitize it well. We haven’t been in it since. Hadn’t added any chemicals since Wednesday.

Water was cloudy again yesterday, but we were getting the ozone installed, with the silver ion cartridge, so I didn’t add anything. Once it was installed we used a test strip and they had me add pH decreaser and a capful of chlorine. Told me to add MSP about 10 minutes prior to use, and chlorine weekly.

I was going to get in last night, but it was still cloudy. I decided to add the MSP anyway (2 tbsp), ran the jets for 10 minutes, then closed it up for the night. This morning I did a test strip and it looks like the MSP/chlorine is low, alk is okay (maybe slightly high?), pH is okay. Am I reading these correctly?5C56B763-D24C-4563-97C9-ED8C973A3EA9.jpegE66C7F4A-A07B-42F3-9ECF-426334E332FA.jpeg

Any suggestions on what I can do to clear the water? Should I just add more chlorine?

Thanks!
 
Your issues stem from relying on inaccurate test strips and pool store measurements, as well as then trying to interpret those results and use pool store chemicals to try to "fix" issues. Not exactly sure what MSP is or what it does, can you explain?

Save yourself the hassle/headaches and invest in a good testing kit (there are 2 that are typically recommended on here). We need to know exactly what TA, pH, Chlorine levels, calcium, etc is and not just estimate. Without numbers from these better testing kits, unfortunately we won't be able to help you much here.
 
You need an accurate test kit to properly manage your spa & ensure it is sanitary.
A Taylor K2006 or TF100 are the only ones up to the task
Test Kits Compared
At this point it’s likely best to purge with Ahhsome,
drain & refill then start fresh by following the guide here👇

How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?

If you have a question about any information within this Sticky, please start a new thread for yourself where you will receive very quick responses to your specific questions. Thank you! Introduction There are two main things to consider when maintaining your hot tub water, Water Balance and...
www.google.com www.google.com
A purge is recommended for new tubs anyway because biofilms can accumulate while the tub is in transit to you since they are wet tested at the factory & evacuating all the water is nearly impossible. This leads to a higher fc demand from the start.

MPS is only an oxidizer not a sanitizer
Chlorine is both oxidizer & sanitizer.
The guide linked above outlines that you use 99% dichlor (which contains cya) to chlorinate until your cya level reaches around 30ppm then you switch to liquid chlorine (which contains no cya) whilst ALWAYS keeping fc above minimum for your cya at all times FC/CYA Levels or nasties 🤢 will proliferate rapidly as you have experienced. You must do this regardless of if you use ozone, uv, or MPS or not.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
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I ran a HotSpring Envoy for several years, until we built a pool/spa. I second mdragger’s advice; Ahhsome, refill, then dichlor until CYA is around 30, then switch to bleach.

The Taylor test kit is super important; after the refill add a sequestrant to address calcium. get pH into range first, dichlor to 10 ppm FC to start, and over a few days, bring TA into line. I only used dichlor for a few days before I switched to bleach for sanitization.

Adding bleach was an every day routine, regardless of whether we used the spa or not. I believe the ozone generator dissipates FC.

MPS was used about once per week, and I would drain, refill and start the balancing process all over again every 8 weeks or so depending on the clarity of the water.

Good luck and enjoy your spa!
 
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The links and advice so far probably have you busy reading up, so just take this as a word of encouragement, yes it seems complicated, but it soon becomes second nature.

Just post back as you work through getting the chemistry settled in if you have any questions. Maybe put info about your tub in the signature line and include test kit results when you acquire one and start using it.

Welcome to TFP :)
 
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Krulligo said:
Your issues stem from relying on inaccurate test strips and pool store measurements, as well as then trying to interpret those results and use pool store chemicals to try to "fix" issues. Not exactly sure what MSP is or what it does, can you explain?

Save yourself the hassle/headaches and invest in a good testing kit (there are 2 that are typically recommended on here). We need to know exactly what TA, pH, Chlorine levels, calcium, etc is and not just estimate. Without numbers from these better testing kits, unfortunately we won't be able to help you much here.
Click to expand...
MPS is a non-chlorine oxidizer. They tell you to add this before using the spa so the ozone system and silver ion work more effectively. I will order a better testing kit.

Thank you!
 
Mdragger88 said:
You need an accurate test kit to properly manage your spa & ensure it is sanitary.
A Taylor K2006 or TF100 are the only ones up to the task
Test Kits Compared
At this point it’s likely best to purge with Ahhsome,
drain & refill then start fresh by following the guide here👇

How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?

If you have a question about any information within this Sticky, please start a new thread for yourself where you will receive very quick responses to your specific questions. Thank you! Introduction There are two main things to consider when maintaining your hot tub water, Water Balance and...
www.google.com www.google.com
A purge is recommended for new tubs anyway because biofilms can accumulate while the tub is in transit to you since they are wet tested at the factory & evacuating all the water is nearly impossible. This leads to a higher fc demand from the start.

MPS is only an oxidizer not a sanitizer
Chlorine is both oxidizer & sanitizer.
The guide linked above outlines that you use 99% dichlor (which contains cya) to chlorinate until your cya level reaches around 30ppm then you switch to liquid chlorine (which contains no cya) whilst ALWAYS keeping fc above minimum for your cya at all times FC/CYA Levels or nasties 🤢 will proliferate rapidly as you have experienced. You must do this regardless of if you use ozone, uv, or MPS or not.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
Click to expand...
Thank you. I will read up on this.
 
stevo777 said:
I ran a HotSpring Envoy for several years, until we built a pool/spa. I second mdragger’s advice; Ahhsome, refill, then dichlor until CYA is around 30, then switch to bleach.

The Taylor test kit is super important; after the refill add a sequestrant to address calcium. get pH into range first, dichlor to 10 ppm FC to start, and over a few days, bring TA into line. I only used dichlor for a few days before I switched to bleach for sanitization.

Adding bleach was an every day routine, regardless of whether we used the spa or not. I believe the ozone generator dissipates FC.

MPS was used about once per week, and I would drain, refill and start the balancing process all over again every 8 weeks or so depending on the clarity of the water.

Good luck and enjoy your spa!
Click to expand...
I thought ozone dissipated FC as well.

Did you run the Envoy with the ozone and silver ion stick?

Thanks!
 
Methuselah said:
The links and advice so far probably have you busy reading up, so just take this as a word of encouragement, yes it seems complicated, but it soon becomes second nature.

Just post back as you work through getting the chemistry settled in if you have any questions. Maybe put info about your tub in the signature line and include test kit results when you acquire one and start using it.

Welcome to TFP :)
Click to expand...
So, I went to the spa store today and did a water test before I saw all these comments.

My results were:
pH: 7.8
TA: 96
Calcium: 90
FC: 0
TC: 2.2
CYA: 4.7
Phosphate: 0

They had me add an alkalinity increaser, a pH decreaser, and 4tbsp of chlorinating concentrate.

The water was not actually cloudy, it was just a bunch of small bubbles and oil sitting on the top. I added zorbie they gave me to clear it.

Do I really have to start over at this point?
 

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Bouchie said:
Did you run the Envoy with the ozone and silver ion stick?
Click to expand...
It had just the ozone generator
Bouchie said:
Do I really have to start over at this point?
Click to expand...
Doesn’t take long at FC=0 and a 100 degree tub to go cloudy. I’d try shocking it for a couple days and maybe MPS to get the FC up and CC down. But take the pool store numbers with a grain of salt, only trust your own testing. I don’t understand the advice to increase TA, which is just about perfect, if you believe their numbers. As well, pH is within a good range. Oh wait, i do understand after all, it’s their pool store revenue enhancement program. Get your own test kit!

I also highly recommend the PoolMath app; it will guide you toward appropriate chemical levels and how to get there…
 
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Bouchie said:
They had me add an alkalinity increaser, a pH decreaser, and 4tbsp of chlorinating concentrate.
Click to expand...
They are putting you on a merry go round 🔄 - having a lower TA (as low as 50) will make it so ph doesn’t rise as quickly. Anything you add to increase TA also increases ph
- any acid addition also lowers ph & Ta.
They are married as far as chemicals are concerned.
A6529201-1474-4881-BF48-7B02F182C8E0.jpeg
Any ph in the 7’s is ok
Any Ta 50 or above is ok
Those aren’t your issue - inadequate chlorine is.
If what you’re chlorinating with is dichlor (Dichloro-S- Triazinetrione)
here’s what each tbsp does to your water
👇
B57EB008-304C-4925-A0D6-DD5C538FFE99.jpeg
If you have used dichlor at all in the past you very likely have much more than a cya of 4.7. The cya test is one that the pool store gets wrong more often than right.
Without an accurate cya test it’s all just a guess whether the 20ppm fc you just added is shock/slam level or not FC/CYA Levels.
It is your spa to do with as you wish but if you purge & start over you can keep track of what you’ve added so you know where you stand. PoolMath makes keeping track easy.
It is also much easier to start over with a clean fresh tub than it is to fight a dirty one. You’re playing catch up now, most don’t win at it. Add in guess strips & depending upon the pool store for infrequent testing & you have a recipe for disaster. Even if you wanted to fight through & do the SLAM Process (which entails maintaining slam level for your cya until you meet ALL 3 end of slam criteria)
you need a proper test kit to do so.
 
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Bouchie said:
So, I went to the spa store today and did a water test before I saw all these comments.

My results were:
pH: 7.8
TA: 96
Calcium: 90
FC: 0
TC: 2.2
CYA: 4.7
Phosphate: 0

They had me add an alkalinity increaser, a pH decreaser, and 4tbsp of chlorinating concentrate.

The water was not actually cloudy, it was just a bunch of small bubbles and oil sitting on the top. I added zorbie they gave me to clear it.

Do I really have to start over at this point?
Click to expand...

Gotta agree with what @Mdragger88 said, it's going to add complexities you may not fully understand if you have to guess at your CYA level. Do you know your total amount of "chlorinating concentrate" added since fill?

Biggest thing is understanding what's in the links. There's good reading on basics in the pool school main link too.

FC of 0 and TC of 2.2 suggests all your chlorinator is bound, or combined (CC), leaving nothing to sanitize your water. At elevated temperatures you can bet bad stuff is growing in it. Adding more granules compounds your calculations and issues associated with high CYA. Do you have bleach available (should have no additives), or liquid chlorinator?

I hate to say it should be dumped (purged first, actually), especially if you're not prepared to maintain it thereafter. However, it is not safe to get in it until FC stays up and CC is below .5 ppm.

There will be other threads where folks faced similar challenges on getting their water balance routines in order. I think I just started working my way through the whole forum, lots of wisdom to be had here though it takes some time 😀
 
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Thank you, @stevo777 and @Mdragger88.

I’m just really frustrated now. I just did a “guess” strip and MPS is high (color can change due to chlorine though), Alk is high, and pH seems low. Another night of not being able to use it.

I have used A LOT of dichlor in the last week. I was under the impression that the ozone/silver ion system will usually register 0 FC, though. Is this not right?

I will order the test kit. Any reason to get the Pro over the K2006?

Thanks, again!
 
Methuselah said:
Gotta agree with what @Mdragger88 said, it's going to add complexities you may not fully understand if you have to guess at your CYA level. Do you know your total amount of "chlorinating concentrate" added since fill?

Biggest thing is understanding what's in the links. There's good reading on basics in the pool school main link too.

FC of 0 and TC of 2.2 suggests all your chlorinator is bound, or combined (CC), leaving nothing to sanitize your water. At elevated temperatures you can bet bad stuff is growing in it. Adding more granules compounds your calculations and issues associated with high CYA. Do you have bleach available (should have no additives), or liquid chlorinator?

I hate to say it should be dumped (purged first, actually), especially if you're not prepared to maintain it thereafter. However, it is not safe to get in it until FC stays up and CC is below .5 ppm.

There will be other threads where folks faced similar challenges on getting their water balance routines in order. I think I just started working my way through the whole forum, lots of wisdom to be had here though it takes some time 😀
Click to expand...
I’ve probably added around 12-14 tbsp of dichlor so far (in 12 days).

I do not have any bleach or liquid chlorinator.
 
Bouchie said:
I’ve probably added around 12-14 tbsp of dichlor so far (in 12 days).

I do not have any bleach or liquid chlorinator.
Click to expand...

By @Mdragger88 posted calculator it suggests a CYA level in the ballpark of 70. Maybe make a run to the store if you have a big lots or someplace that sells unscented (basic) bleach? I wouldn't suggest adding any more dichlor.

If all else fails and you go with more dichlor, you can lower it by partial dump and refill (not much help if not prepared to switch to bleach).

www.troublefreepool.com

The Free Chlorine and Cyanuric Acid Relationship

Managing your cyanuric acid and Free Chlorine levels is key to stabilizing your pool. Learn how these two items affect each other.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

BTW, SLAM level for 70 ppm CYA is 28 ppm of FC. Very high ... not sure I'd want to fight tha fight, but it's your call.
 
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Bouchie said:
Thank you, @stevo777 and @Mdragger88.

I’m just really frustrated now. I just did a “guess” strip and MPS is high (color can change due to chlorine though), Alk is high, and pH seems low. Another night of not being able to use it.

I have used A LOT of dichlor in the last week. I was under the impression that the ozone/silver ion system will usually register 0 FC, though. Is this not right?

I will order the test kit. Any reason to get the Pro over the K2006?

Thanks,
Click to expand...
Your fc should never go below minimum for your cya level- even if you use silver & ozone. The ozone will contribute to fc demand so your doses will need to compensate for that. They don’t do anything special that skews the test making it show zero when it’s really not if that’s what you mean. You have no fc because it has been consumed by organics as fast as you put it in.

The tf100 & tfpro have more fc & cya reagents allowing you to perform more of those tests than the taylor k2006. The tfpro also comes with the smart stir or speed stir which cost $40-$50 if bought separately.
The taylor k2006 C has more reagents than the k2006 but doesn’t come with a speed stir
There’s a chart here showing the differences 👇
www.troublefreepool.com

Swimming Pool Test Kits Compared

What pool test kit should I buy? Why not use test strips? Our recommended test kits will pay for themselves in no time!
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

Don’t forget to get some Ahhsome - it’s available on tftestkits.net, Amazon & several other online retailers.
 
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