TFP Method Questions and other pool oddities

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R

revv

Active member
Mar 12, 2022
32
CA
Pool Size
10000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Jandy Truclear / Ei
I've been working almost daily on my pool to try to get it within TFP's recommended parameters. My log is here: PoolMath Logs

As I continue to work on this, I did have a few questions:

1) As you can see, CYA was at 5-60. I added 32 oz of stabilizer, waited a couple of days, and it didn't do much. I added another 16 oz of stabilizer and now CYA has jumped to 90, or the recommended maximum. Is this normal?

2) TFP recommends CH at 350-550. Much like the FC-CYA recommended values, these CH values are against most recommendations I've read and heard everywhere. I get that FC-CYA have a relationship, but I have not been able to find what is TFP's thinking when recommending such high levels of CH. Any ideas? At my current levels, I already have white spots on some edges...

3) I am fighting a constant battle with pH. Every 3 days or so, the pool is demanding about 16 oz of muriatic acid. Is this normal? My pool does have a spillover from the spa into the pool and this runs for about 6 hours per day. Is there something I can do so that I need to add MA at least weekly instead of twice a week?

I'm working on raising FC so that it is in line with my level of CYA.

I might have to drain about 10% of my pool's water due to high salt. I currently have between 3400 and 3600 ppm. My salt water chlorinator wants this at 3000. Also, since CYA is on the upper tolerance level, it might not be the worst idea to do so anyway.

For reference, I'm using the TF-Pro testing kit and Taylor salt test kit.
 
To your questions:
1 - Adding 49 oz of stabilizer is about 35 ppm of CYA. Add that to your already CYA of about 50-60 and it's very easy to see why you over-shot. How did you add the stabilizer? Did you use the sock method?
2 - Remember that CH range is just that - a range. CH has quite a broad acceptable area based on many other factors like pool type, method of chlorination, etc. You're in CA so typically you have very hard water and are better suited for a CH on the lower end. Almost never a need to add calcium in your area.
3 - Turn the spillover off. No need to run that long. Less is better as aeration will increase the pH. Yes, it's common to add acid every 2-3 days for some pools. But you must keep the pH in-check to avoid scale issues, especially if your CH is elevated. Your last TA was 80, so I would lower it down to about 50-60 and that should help slow the rise of pH as well.
 
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revv said:
I've been working almost daily on my pool to try to get it within TFP's recommended parameters. My log is here: PoolMath Logs

As I continue to work on this, I did have a few questions:

1) As you can see, CYA was at 5-60. I added 32 oz of stabilizer, waited a couple of days, and it didn't do much. I added another 16 oz of stabilizer and now CYA has jumped to 90, or the recommended maximum. Is this normal?

2) TFP recommends CH at 350-550. Much like the FC-CYA recommended values, these CH values are against most recommendations I've read and heard everywhere. I get that FC-CYA have a relationship, but I have not been able to find what is TFP's thinking when recommending such high levels of CH. Any ideas? At my current levels, I already have white spots on some edges...

3) I am fighting a constant battle with pH. Every 3 days or so, the pool is demanding about 16 oz of muriatic acid. Is this normal? My pool does have a spillover from the spa into the pool and this runs for about 6 hours per day. Is there something I can do so that I need to add MA at least weekly instead of twice a week?

I'm working on raising FC so that it is in line with my level of CYA.

I might have to drain about 10% of my pool's water due to high salt. I currently have between 3400 and 3600 ppm. My salt water chlorinator wants this at 3000. Also, since CYA is on the upper tolerance level, it might not be the worst idea to do so anyway.

For reference, I'm using the TF-Pro testing kit and Taylor salt test kit.
Click to expand...
The recommendations for calcium are related to the CSI which you are tracking. If you play with the CSI value in poolmath, you can see what increasing the CA will push the CSI in a positive direction. Ideally you want the CSI to be zero, but anything in a range of -0.3 to +0.3 is considered great and between the 0.6’s is where you want to be. But pH, water temperature play a huge role in CSI as well.
 
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I also noticed that you are only knocking down your pH to 7.8 once it hits 8.0-8.2. I would increase the amount of acid you add to knock it down to 7.6. That should buy you a few extra days between additions and more importantly help bring down your TA over time to slow the pH rise.

Also on your salt level, 3,600 should be fine for your unit. Typically they produce as long as you are not getting any high/low salt warnings or flow warnings. It is not going to increase your chlorine if you drop the salt level to 3,000 so I would not waste the time/$/water in draining.
 
Texas Splash said:
To your questions:
1 - Adding 49 oz of stabilizer is about 35 ppm of CYA. Add that to your already CYA of about 50-60 and it's very easy to see why you over-shot. How did you add the stabilizer? Did you use the sock method?
2 - Remember that CH range is just that - a range. CH has quite a broad acceptable area based on many other factors like pool type, method of chlorination, etc. You're in CA so typically you have very hard water and are better suited for a CH on the lower end. Almost never a need to add calcium in your area.
3 - Turn the spillover off. No need to run that long. Less is better as aeration will increase the pH. Yes, it's common to add acid every 2-3 days for some pools. But you must keep the pH in-check to avoid scale issues, especially if your CH is elevated. Your last TA was 80, so I would lower it down to about 50-60 and that should help slow the rise of pH as well.
Click to expand...
1. It was liquid stabilizer. I added 32 oz first to be on the conservative side. I then measured again a couple of days later and it was still at 60. Me trying to be conservative, I then added 16 oz more to not overshoot, but I definitely went above what I needed. I will measure again today to see if I got a false result yesterday. The definition of "not seeing the black dot" during the test varies. Am I not supposed to see any part of the black dot at all? Sometimes when I measure I can barely see it, even though most of it is gone. I just don't know at what point I need to stop adding that mix to the CYA tube...

2. As of right now I'm outside of the parameters. Should I aim for 300-350 at the very least or is 175 OK?

3. The pool company just configured everything and did not explain to me that there was a possibility of turning that off. How do I do that? I know that when I set the pool to spa mode the spillover stops, so there has to be a valve somewhere, but I don't know which one it is or if water still circulates in both the pool and spa when spillover is off. I do have the automatic actuators.

Bperry said:
The recommendations for calcium are related to the CSI which you are tracking. If you play with the CSI value in poolmath, you can see what increasing the CA will push the CSI in a positive direction. Ideally you want the CSI to be zero, but anything in a range of -0.3 to +0.3 is considered great and between the 0.6’s is where you want to be. But pH, water temperature play a huge role in CSI as well.
Click to expand...
I am tracking the CSI, but I don't know what it is I just know that I'm looking to be between -.3 and +.3, but not sure why. Will give pool math a try.


JJ_Tex said:
I also noticed that you are only knocking down your pH to 7.8 once it hits 8.0-8.2. I would increase the amount of acid you add to knock it down to 7.6. That should buy you a few extra days between additions and more importantly help bring down your TA over time to slow the pH rise.

Also on your salt level, 3,600 should be fine for your unit. Typically they produce as long as you are not getting any high/low salt warnings or flow warnings. It is not going to increase your chlorine if you drop the salt level to 3,000 so I would not waste the time/$/water in draining.
Click to expand...
Thanks. This is a good suggestion. I guess it was me trying not to overshoot and drop pH way under.
 
I would ensure your CH is at least 250. With that, your pH and TA should help compensate to keep the water well balanced to protect the plaster from erosion. Once a pool has cured, we typically recommend a CSI that is slightly negative (zero down to about -0.3) which helps to prevent scale on the pool and/or SWG plates. See more in the link below.

CSI and LSI - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
revv said:
1.. I just don't know at what point I need to stop adding that mix to the CYA tube...
Click to expand...

See if this helps you - CYA Testing - Further Reading

You can skip to about the 1:00 mark to see the dot reading. We round up so if the dot disappears between 50 and 40 lines we call it 50.



revv said:
2. As of right now I'm outside of the parameters. Should I aim for 300-350 at the very least or is 175 OK?
Click to expand...

175 is on the low side. You should raise your CH to at least 250 ppm. How much more is a judgement call as CH will accumulate and rise over time if you have high CH fill water.

Calcium Hardness - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

3. The pool company just configured everything and did not explain to me that there was a possibility of turning that off. How do I do that? I know that when I set the pool to spa mode the spillover stops, so there has to be a valve somewhere, but I don't know which one it is or if water still circulates in both the pool and spa when spillover is off. I do have the automatic actuators.
Click to expand...

Look in your Aqualink panel if dip switch 3 is turned on which enables you to control SPILLOVER mode.

Jandy Aqualink RS - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

revv said:
I am tracking the CSI, but I don't know what it is I just know that I'm looking to be between -.3 and +.3, but not sure why. Will give pool math a try.
Click to expand...

www.troublefreepool.com

Calcium Saturation Index (CSI)

How is CSI calculated? Very simple – use our PoolMath tool. To ensure long plaster life and save money, click here to learn more.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

CSI and LSI - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
Last edited:
Will reply to other comments tomorrow, but here is a picture taken about a week ago:

IMG_6914.JPG
 

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revv said:
here is a picture taken about a week ago:
Click to expand...
img_6914-jpg.461151



That is scale caused by evaporation depositing the calcium and salt on the tiles. Your CH level does not make a difference in its accumulation.

Waterline Scale Removal - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
 
Thanks guys. Promise I will reply to the posts above tonight.

Doing pool maintenance right now and CYA is now back down to 60 from 90, which I don't really understand how. I measured it 5 times to make sure I was reading this accurately. This means my reading of 90 a couple of days ago was incorrect, which doesn't make sense either because I dumped in 48 Oz of liquid stabilizer a few days ago, when readings were at 60... Does anyone know how can this be possible?

Thanks for the tip on the salt stains. Any ideas on how to get rid of them? I'm assuming though that everyone here is on board with raising CH to 250, right?
 
ajw22 said:
Look in your Aqualink panel if dip switch 3 is turned on which enables you to control SPILLOVER mode.
Click to expand...
@ajw22 Thanks for the detailed post. It was super useful. I opened up the panel and changed the position of the switch, but it didn't do anything. I didn't see any valves changing position and the spillover was still on.
 
revv said:
@ajw22 Thanks for the detailed post. It was super useful. I opened up the panel and changed the position of the switch, but it didn't do anything. I didn't see any valves changing position and the spillover was still on.
Click to expand...
You need to change the cam on your return actuator so that it fully closes the spa return when in POOL mode to shutoff your spillover.

Post pics of your equipment pad and return actuator when in POOL mode and SPA mode.
 
revv said:
This means my reading of 90 a couple of days ago was incorrect, which doesn't make sense either because I dumped in 48 Oz of liquid stabilizer a few days ago, when readings were at 60... Does anyone know how can this be possible?
Click to expand...

Did you add complete bottles of liquid stabiliser? The actual stabiliser tends to settle at the bottom of the bottle as a sludge (at least that's what others reported here, I never used the liquid stuff myself). When adding only half a bottle for example can result in adding hardly any CYA, and when adding the second half you'll dump in the sludge with the actual CYA.

Best to add complete bottles and to make sure to rinse the bottle well with pool water to make sure it all ends up in the pool.
 
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revv said:
TFP recommends CH at 350-550. Much like the FC-CYA recommended values, these CH values are against most recommendations I've read and heard everywhere
Click to expand...

TFP also recommends lower TA to reduce pH-rise due to CO2 outgassing. To balance CSI, higher CH works better in combination with TA at or below 70.

It is important with the TFP method to go the full way, it doesn't really work to just pick one aspect and go with "traditional" advice for the rest. But take your time, read through Pool School and the TFP wiki and understand what is behind the TFP recommendations.
 
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