Sub Poured Muratic Acid On Marble Pavers NOW WHAT ?

mcleod said:

Hi
it's @mcleod. I will include @Dirk and @JoyfulNoise in this. Please take a deep breath, pour a favorite libation, and let's think about this. As I understand this post...you have white marble (name/region?) with grey veining, and it has been sandblasted. Some questions.
Who did the sandblasting? Was it local or by the quarry?
The texture of the ordered stone differs from the acid-etched stone in what way? Describe your tactile and visual senses of the two surfaces.
The shading difference you described is or is not from dirt? Is the shading different in those areas touched by the acid as opposed to the sandblasted?
I know this is a big deal and I want you to know that there may be alternatives that will save the installation. No need to send pics at this moment.

Mc

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parkinsmith said:

Thank you so very much for reaching out!
Step 1 complete, deep breath taken.
Step 2 complete, single malt is poured.!
Here we go ……
The name of the marble is Gray Pearl, I think it might be from Turkey, it was purchased at Farber CNK, a very good stone supplier in Dallas, TX (they have other locations as well) . I should also mention my coping is this same stone as well. It came sand blasted, I am not sure if they did the sand blast or if it arrives that way from overseas , ( I get the impression it does ). I will be going there on Monday and can gather more info. Here is a link to the marble Grey Pearl Sand Blasted Marble Pavers – Faber CNK Stone

The texture of the original stone is smooth but with a slight rough texture to it

After the acid wash in some places the texture is chalky, in some places it does not have the slight roughness and in other places there are a few patches that I would call super smooth. these smaller areas look wet , oily or slick but to the touch are dry and super smooth. These are patches and shine in the sun but they do not cover an entire paver area they appear around the deck in small areas. So, there are a few different textures happening in various areas of the deck,

Visually the original stones are super white (I have a lot leftover to compare to ), there are little silver flecks that catch light , the gray veins are very subtle when the stone is dry it almost like they are hidden under the surface. Just beautiful. I picked this because of the mostly all white look when dry as that is what I was going for. It does not have a heavy marbleized or gray look unless you wet the deck. Once dry it goes back to the white look.

The acid washed deck looks very different now. It is very inconsistent looking but not in a good way, natural stone is inconsistent but in a natural beauty way, this is now splotchy and erratic looking. Like a Jackson Pollack painting without the artistic flair.
In some areas there are large sections that are very gray (was white before) with white blobs mixed in not like veins but like big areas of white stain on the darker gray. Sort of looks like those stain images shrinks use. This could be where they poured the acid right out of the jug on to the paver and it was starting to run across the paver. That is the impression it gives me when I look at. So, I see white splotches on gray areas, but the areas were not gray before. It is grayer than before. I do see in some areas more of the marble look than before. ( a few of the pavers look like normal marble , more heavily marbled than before ( those places are not bad ) In some places it looks like when you wet the original stone but it is dry . There also seems to be a haze or a dulling effect., chalky. The original stones were not shiny, but they were crisp and clean now things kind of look dull. There are also some smaller white splotches that look like a powder on some of the coping

The shading looks very different in the areas where I am assuming were touched by the acid, is some places you look at it and your mind says this is where they poured out the acid from the jug and in other places my mind says oh this is where they spread the acid around or used the hose sort of like bad streaks shaded in .

I hope my impressions answer your questions thoroughly. I am happy to answer any and all questions you might have.

Grateful to you all for trying to help me figure out possible pathways. It is really a heartbreaker not to mention frustrating.

Time now for a few more fingers of that scotch

Jen

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mcleod said:

Jen
Hope the Scotch went down smoothly. I will look up the stone and see what I can find out. It's hard to assess this issue without seeing it as pictures can't capture all the subtleties like the human eye. The choice of what to do will range from replacement to restoration. Replacement will involve more time, will likely incur damage to the concrete which will have to be repaired before reinstalling the stone. All doable. Restoration will also involve time, likely less time than reinstalling. The course chosen will be influenced by your sensitivity, your sense of aesthetics. There may be a compromise or two you'll have to make. For example, if restoration could smooth out the appearance but the surface wasn't the same as the original finish but you had uniformity in texture and appearance (as close as is possible), would that be acceptable? If not then the course to follow is replacement.

Stone is composed of minerals, some soft, some hard, that respond to chemicals and abrasion differently, creating a texture at the surface. The process of restoration removes the top layer of the stone to reveal a new surface. My first thought upon reading your post was to sandblast the set stones with a fine enough abrasive to duplicate the original finish. If possible, have the supplier contact the quarry to find out how they did what they did. If sand (likely), how fine was it? If another abrasive like walnut shells was used, again how fine? If blasting is the path then I would suggest that the unset pieces also be treated for uniformity, if needed as replacements.

As others have posted here you likely have legal recourse. Hopefully the contractor(s) are insured. Litigation has it's own consequences-frustration, impatience, rage- among many others. Ask yourself what is your objective. I'll go out on a limb and say it is to have the pool you envisioned. The simplest path to that is what you seek. I'm happy to be of help as I can. I'm going to tag a couple of others on this forum to broaden the knowledge base. @JoyfulNoise @Dirk

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The Scotch was great and very much needed.

Thank you and the others for your help and looking into this . In response to your reply. My gut would be to try to restore some of this to get some improvement if possible. Reinstalling seems like a huge undertaking that I don't think we would really want to undertake it . Spending time on researching and then attempting some sort of restoration strategy ( if there is one) would be my preferred route even if it is time consuming. I am willing to put in the work.

As far as my sensibility for aesthetics , I can live with some of this. I am not looking for perfection at this point, just some improvement . I can for sure compromise. As far as aesthetics the thing that is bothering me the most are the areas with the white splotches I described , the ones that look like the ink blots shrinks use, they are very bad in places. As far as the integrity of the stone I have no idea what damage this did to the stone beyond the aesthetics and the long term prognosis for the stone itself.

I am going to the supplier tomorrow and will seek information that can assist us.
With that said I do have a few questions about where I am at today.

1. The supplier's stone guy strongly suggested I immediately do a non acidic alkaline wash that they have to maybe try to help the stone , He indicated this should be done sooner than later . Not sure why?

2. This installation was not very good, ( see below) in many areas the pavers are tight and touching with no visible space, in other areas there are wider gaps that need to be filled. The sub did sand once and 99% is gone ( see pics ) The PB wants the sub to sand the lines in between the pavers to address this on TUESDAY ( before plaster wednesday) . I really don't want the sub touching the deck and I am not sure what will happen if I do not allow this and just leave it as is. Any feedback or advice ? I am really at a loss.
3. Stonescapes plaster is scheduled for WEDNESDAY
4. Acid wash and start to fill on THURSDAY

I am not sure what to do as far as the deck is concerned . How long can the deck stay like it is now? Do I need the sand step? ( it is sitting on concrete )

With regard to restoration, what type of specialist would I be seeking?Best way to start researching who would have the expertise to do the work or even eyeball it.

Prior to the acid issue I was going to seal with the sealer the supplier suggested. I even talked to the manufacturer of the sealer to seek counsel to make sure it was the right material for this stone. My goal was to make it easier to wipe up dirt, stains from leaves (already happening). I have tested it on leftover ( non acid treated ) It is a matt penetrating sealer from SERVEON and did not seem to make the samples I did slick stone. This is a white deck and absorbs everything ( my husband is a RED wine drinker I know I can't seal it now so I'm not sure what to do .

You ask about my objective here and litigation etc. I really don't want to deal with the consequences, stress and expenses of litigation. I am seeking the simplest path indeed with as much peace as possible , my husband is scheduled for a surgery in early September.

This pool builder does not have the experience or knowledge base to address this and I really want them and their sub out of my life . My objective is to personally see what might be able to be done to restore some of this. I would rather take responsibility for trying to find a solution on my own , I do not want to put my fate in their hands any longer.

With that said I do plan on addressing this with them, from a financial standpoint as I have yet to pay for the paver installation and I am going to seek not to make that payment.

You should also know there were huge issues with the installation that the PB is aware of, documented to them with photos , they sent the sub back to resolve but no way to do that as deck was done, ( some cuts were wrong and uneven and patched with little chips of stone , a few areas have stones that are not even with the other creating a lip you can stub your toe on, they did not lay the deck right and there was a sliver of concrete left running along one side of the deck (I attached some images).

This acid issue is on top of all of that. I am really just done. I would think it's fair that I pay my plaster draw ( which is the last ) and due on Thursday this would conclude the original contract . I then plan on asking them to work with me on the work order for the nightmare paver install and waive that . I am sure they won't and I will need to decide what to do at that point. That is a check I don't want to write ! @JoyfulNoise @Dirk

At this point I also think the PB needs to also pay for my single malt supply as well !

Jen

mcleod said:

Jen
Having the PB provide an ample supply of whiskey is hardily endorsed. It gives comfort, contemplation, and occasionally disconnection. Happy to be an expert witness in this regard.

I've encountered your kind of exhaustion before and can assure you there is an end. Now to specifics.

1) The supplier's stone guy strongly suggested I immediately do a non acidic alkaline wash that they have to maybe try to help the stone , He indicated this should be done sooner than later . Not sure why?

Acid, when dry, will leave crystals that can be reactivated with water. This is why you neutralize, which means you balance out the pH. The number 7 on that scale is what you are aiming for. This can be tested with pH strips (not pool ones) but laboratory grade. Inexpensive. Happy to explain how to use once what you've got them. It might be obtained at lab supply houses in Dallas. Certainly on Amazon (Amazon.com : hydrion test strips).

You don't need something from the supplier. Use Ammonia, lemon scent, mixed in water. I would be using pH strips to measure the acid in the stone, the ammonia in the water, and the stone once more after the rinse. I will fill in the details when you're ready. Sooner is better but the damage is done so you could walk to this solution.

2)This installation was not very good, ( see below) in many areas the pavers are tight and touching with no visible space, in other areas there are wider gaps that need to be filled. The sub did sand once and 99% is gone ( see pics ) The PB wants the sub to sand the lines in between the pavers to address this on TUESDAY ( before plaster wednesday) . I really don't want the sub touching the deck and I am not sure what will happen if I do not allow this and just leave it as is. Any feedback or advice ? I am really at a loss.

Are the edges of the tiles straight and clean or distressed and rough? If the former then the narrow joints could be widened with a diamond wheel (in the hands of professional) to the width appropriate for cementitious grouting. If the latter then the approach is a couple of steps longer.
The reply to the PB should be NO!!! Don't let them push you around. I'm not quite the expert here but the thought is if the sand were used what's to stop it from being blown or washed into the pool? Now or in the future? I'd tell him no.

START A PAPER TRAIL. Everything is in writing. Email him that sanding is are proceeding Tuesday. Phone conversations are summarized in emails as well. Have witnesses when you meet with PB if you can.

3. Stonescapes plaster is scheduled for WEDNESDAY
I don't know to what this refers and where it butts up to the flat stone. My gut says no. However, you could ask the PB if he will imdenify you against any unforseen repairs to the flatwork that would, as a by-product, damage the stonescape. In writing of course.

4. Acid wash and start to fill on THURSDAY
This is referring to what? The pool, the stonescape, the flatwork? Imagine worst case scenarios, say , full rip out and reinstall or sand blasting. Could you imagine any ancillary damage caused be such work? if so, then stop everything until all is sorted out. The PB will threaten the scheduling, talk about industry standards, blah, blah, blah. There are two agendas working. The PB wants the problem to go away; you want the pool of your dreams. Yours is the superior position. This is where you come from.

I know you want them gone but you are in the middle so you've got to slug on bit farther. Ask the PB for his liability insurance certificate. In fact ask to have his agent isssue a certificate with you and your husband named as additionally insured.

Don't Pay. Period. This is your club. I presume that Texas has consumer laws, see what applies to you. I don't know if contractor licenses are required in this state. If so, then contact the licensing dept. that handles such things and file a complaint.

Red Wine
I got tricks for that.

I'm including a few others on this missive. @JoyfulNoise @Dirk

Mc

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Thanks for all the guidence , I have put info and some follow-up questions below in purple.


Having the PB provide an ample supply of whiskey is hardily endorsed. It gives comfort, contemplation, and occasionally disconnection. Happy to be an expert witness in this regard. HA HA !

I've encountered your kind of exhaustion before and can assure you there is an end. Now to specifics.

1) The supplier's stone guy strongly suggested I immediately do a non acidic alkaline wash that they have to maybe try to help the stone , He indicated this should be done sooner than later . Not sure why?

Acid, when dry, will leave crystals that can be reactivated with water. This is why you neutralize, which means you balance out the pH. The number 7 on that scale is what you are aiming for. This can be tested with pH strips (not pool ones) but laboratory grade. Inexpensive. Happy to explain how to use once what you've got them. It might be obtained at lab supply houses in Dallas. Certainly on Amazon (Amazon.com : hydrion test strips).

I will order the test strips and look forward to the coaching on how to use them. The stonescapes refers to pool plaster type they will be doing when they plaster my pool ON WEDNESDAY and then they Acid Wash the pool plaster on THURSDAY and and fill the pool, I tell you this as my thought was to try and get the PH neutralizer onto the deck before the new plaster and water goes in the pool on Wednesday I did not want any of the solution ending up in the new pool on the new plaster while I am also trying to balance water for first time. Another question: does the Ammonia wash have to be repeated more than once ?

You don't need something from the supplier. Use Ammonia, lemon scent, mixed in water. I would be using pH strips to measure the acid in the stone, the ammonia in the water, and the stone once more after the rinse. I will fill in the details when you're ready. Sooner is better but the damage is done so you could walk to this solution. I think sooner, like tomorrow, early evening or Tuesday AM. What would be the ratio of water to Ammonia if I am mixing this up. How best to apply / rinse etc.

2)This installation was not very good, ( see below) in many areas the pavers are tight and touching with no visible space, in other areas there are wider gaps that need to be filled. The sub did sand once and 99% is gone ( see pics ) The PB wants the sub to sand the lines in between the pavers to address this on TUESDAY ( before plaster wednesday) . I really don't want the sub touching the deck and I am not sure what will happen if I do not allow this and just leave it as is. Any feedback or advice ? I am really at a loss.

Are the edges of the tiles straight and clean or distressed and rough? Some are very clean and straight and tight to the next stone, in some places they are a little rough not a lot .

If the former then the narrow joints could be widened with a diamond wheel (in the hands of professional) to the width appropriate for cementitious grouting. If the latter then the approach is a couple of steps longer.

Any sense on how long I can wait to grout or sand , any issues or damage since these are on concrete applied with mortar? Can I wait on this step? In a lot of places it looks like there is no place for the sand to go , no spaces, in a handful of places there are the wider gaps

The reply to the PB should be NO!!! Don't let them push you around. I'm not quite the expert here but the thought is if the sand were used what's to stop it from being blown or washed into the pool? Now or in the future? I'd tell him no.

That is what I was thinking , none of the sand stayed in the pavers the first time he did it

START A PAPER TRAIL. Everything is in writing. Email him that sanding is are proceeding Tuesday. Phone conversations are summarized in emails as well. Have witnesses when you meet with PB if you can. Got it

3. Stonescapes plaster is scheduled for WEDNESDAY

I don't know to what this refers and where it butts up to the flat stone. My gut says no. However, you could ask the PB if he will imdenify you against any unforseen repairs to the flatwork that would, as a by-product, damage the stonescape. In writing of course. This is the plastering process for the pool; the entire deck and coping is covered in plastic during this process .



4. Acid wash and start to fill on THURSDAY

This is referring to what? The pool, the stonescape, the flatwork? Imagine worst case scenarios, say , full rip out and reinstall or sand blasting. Could you imagine any ancillary damage caused be such work? if so, then stop everything until all is sorted out. The PB will threaten the scheduling, talk about industry standards, blah, blah, blah. There are two agendas working. The PB wants the problem to go away; you want the pool of your dreams. Yours is the superior position. This is where you come from. I do not think getting the pool plastered and filled with water could do further deck damage as the deck is covered during the entire process. (Unless having the deck being covered in plastic for a day or so in the heat will cause issues) The only issues will be how to handle the pool with water in it when we sand or grout the pavers, and /or restore.



I know you want them gone but you are in the middle so you've got to slug on bit farther. Ask the PB for his liability insurance certificate. In fact ask to have his agent isssue a certificate with you and your husband named as additionally insured. Got it



Don't Pay. Period. This is your club. I presume that Texas has consumer laws, see what applies to you. I don't know if contractor licenses are required in this state. If so, then contact the licensing dept. that handles such things and file a complaint.



Red Wine

I got tricks for that. GREAT I know I will need to learn those tricks !



I'm including a few others on this missive. @JoyfulNoise @Dirk



Mc

ajw22 said:

Are the pavers cemented down?

Can they be lifted?

Can you switch sone pavers around and move the damaged ones to less conspicuous locations?

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They were installed use mortar .

JamesW said:

Maybe search for marble floor restoration services near you.

Polishing would probably help, but it would probably leave the stone too slick.

You can maybe polish and then follow up with a treatment to add the correct texture.

Be extra careful about sealer as it can be slippery around a pool especially on a naturally slick surface like marble.

A penetrating sealer would be better than a surface coating sealer.

How many stones total are affected by the damage?

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I would say there are about 25 bad stones but then there is the issue of the haze/texture on the overall deck I was going to use a matte penetrating sealer and have tested in on extra stones and also talle to the manufacturer to confirm its is and slip factor , WIth that said I will need to speak with them again and I am sure the acid issue on the deck will for sure effect anything you put on it in an abnormal way.

JamesW said:

I checked the credentials of the builder.

Unfortunately, this is the only credential that I could find.

View attachment 446196

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LOL , this is great !

JamesW said:

They're not giving you adequate expansion joints.

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Whats the fix if there is one .