New England 2019 equipment upgrade project - feedback please!

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DeepEndFrog

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Bronze Supporter
Aug 27, 2018
14
Haydenville MA
Greetings TFP people,

Thanks to all those who share their knowledge here. Going into my third season as a pool owner, increasingly self-sufficient thanks to what I've read on TFP!

Two years ago I moved into a home here in the woods of western Massachusetts with a circa 2003 inground. Beautiful site at 500' elevation. Keep an eye out for foxes, hawks, eagles, owls, deer, bears and maybe even a moose as you float. Mossy, ferns, exposed bedrock and quartz veins, huge pines and birch trees nearby, with water naturally running down the rocky hill all around (above and below ground!). The last owner had to blast out a spot in the rock to get the pool in.

Here are the goods:
2003 vintage installation
18x36 IG, 25k gallon, vinyl TARA liner
pump: 1HP SP2600 Hayward
filter: EC65 DE Hayward Perflex
2 returns
2 groovy Fiberstar lights, working when they see fit
Hayward halogen underwater light SP0580 or similar (replaced in 2018)
Pentair Dorado pool cleaner
TF-100

Expect to enjoy the pool for at least 5 more years, probably <10, possibly 10+.

2019 project:
- The pump and filter are definitely getting replaced this year - cracked pump fitting when closing last fall, gotta do it now!
- Optional: add SWG this year -- or at least preserve option to do so at a later juncture
- Futureproof: preserve option of adding heater (probably propane, possibly electric) in future
- Willing to pay reasonable premium for automation features
- Reasonably handy and have time to invest, but don't want to do electrician work, and am not a natural mechanic

Please share your thoughts on the following...

1. Leaning all Pentair. VSP pump, oversized DE filter. ?

2. Options - willing to stretch financially and fund both SWG and reasonable automation.
a. SWG. Inclined to do this unless TFP consensus is that it is a Bad Idea. Concern about SWG eroding ladder/stair rail hardware has been raised by local installer, but not sure this is credible. Haven't had time to do all my TFP research here.
b. Automation. Haven't researched too much, but like the idea of controlling/monitoring system fundamentals from the phone. Lights would be a nice bonus, but not going to spend thousands to recreate Studio 54 twice/year
c. Heat. Primary goal would be to extend season a bit in the fall (late Oct vs. late Sep), perhaps open a bit earlier (April/May instead of May/June), probably future phase due to cost -- but maybe not

3. Install - sounds like at least for Pentair the smart move is to buy from warrantied reseller. Choices limited in Western MA, would bid probably go with best available local, perhaps Teddy Bear. Maybe hire an electrician and do the rest myself (a bit dicey) - but want equipment warranty protection in any scenario.

Thank you!
 
Good morning DeepEndFrog, TGIF!

Ok, to get to your points.... Go for the VS pump. Coming up in law is a requirement soon for all new pool pumps over .70hp to be variable speed. So I'd go ahead and do it now before any price hikes.

I'm not clear as to how you're chlorinating now? A SWG is a wonderful addition, IMO. Allows you to go off on vacation and not worry about the chlorine. If I've ever heard of degradation in screws or ladders it was because they were cheaply made in the first place or not the right quality for pools anyway. Otherwise it shouldn't be much of an issue. Your pool already contains a greater amount of salt (byproduct from all chemicals used already) so unless you're starting from a fresh fill you've already got it. Remember that we advise you to use a SWG whose cell is at least 2x the size of your pool. This extends the cell life as you won't be using it as much.

I'd look into both gas and heatpumps. Propane is probably the most costly way to heat a pool.

When you want automation its important to have all your equipment "talk" to each other. So get all your equipment from the same manufacturer. It used to be that if you purchased 3 pieces of <forgotten> brand they extended the warranty by a year....check in to this. It might be Pentair??

That's all I gotta say....

Maddie :flower:
 
Thank you Maddie, this is very helpful.

We have been chlorinating with tablets historically, but SLAM'd just before close and used liquid bleach.

Yes! VS pump for sure. Also a DE cartridge filter. Although locally, there are far more sand filters used, we have a million of the Hayward eggs around here.

Sounds like with both DE filter and the SWG, it makes sense to over-size. Filter for ease of maintenance, SWG for cell life.

As far as heat, heat pumps are not an appealing option in this rocky terrain. Natural gas not an option either. Propane is kind of the option of last resort. I'll have to do some math on how much it will cost to install and run, and think about a cover/heat retention strategy. Probably defer this feature to future due to cost for now, but really depends. Would be nice to have it accounted for in the design now, even if not installed until future.

Am definitely leaning Pentair across the board, great tip on asking for package discount. A pump/filter/SWG combo is the plan. My main question now is where to buy and get any needed install help.

Thank you again for the great tips.
YippeeSkippy said:
Good morning DeepEndFrog, TGIF!

Ok, to get to your points.... Go for the VS pump. Coming up in law is a requirement soon for all new pool pumps over .70hp to be variable speed. So I'd go ahead and do it now before any price hikes.

I'm not clear as to how you're chlorinating now? A SWG is a wonderful addition, IMO. Allows you to go off on vacation and not worry about the chlorine. If I've ever heard of degradation in screws or ladders it was because they were cheaply made in the first place or not the right quality for pools anyway. Otherwise it shouldn't be much of an issue. Your pool already contains a greater amount of salt (byproduct from all chemicals used already) so unless you're starting from a fresh fill you've already got it. Remember that we advise you to use a SWG whose cell is at least 2x the size of your pool. This extends the cell life as you won't be using it as much.

I'd look into both gas and heatpumps. Propane is probably the most costly way to heat a pool.

When you want automation its important to have all your equipment "talk" to each other. So get all your equipment from the same manufacturer. It used to be that if you purchased 3 pieces of <forgotten> brand they extended the warranty by a year....check in to this. It might be Pentair??

That's all I gotta say....

Maddie :flower:
Click to expand...
 
Solar would be a good tradeoff for u if u have the room and proper sun direction. If ur handy the thousands u save on install will be leaps ahead a possible problem w equip and warranty. Lots of good info on this site to help u along
 
no problem.....I have a 266k btu heater thats gas and I am also looking into a DIY solar install next month. Im planning it now, for the 1500ish in material in my case it will be great to have any free heat I can get. My roof is small on southern exposure if I had the room Id go big and probably not even need the heater. I dont use it much I just spot heat on days I need it depending on weather, Im in crummy NJ lol
 
That's what the heating scenario here would be - episodic. I'm sure with propane it will cost lots of $$$ per degree raised, maybe unrealistically so. Haven't done the math, but assume raising 26,000 gallons of water + 5 degrees (for example) is a lot of BTUs. That said, on a nice weekend in September could be worth it, on some occasions.... maybe.

The homegrown heating stuff I saw (somewhat random, not well researched) involved diverting the pool water through a long black hose, correctly positioned to capture maximum sun, moved slowly with a cost effective pump. Possibly a bit too DIY for me. But maybe not, need to check out the options. What are you planning? And what do you do for retention/solar cover?

I do like solar in general, have good-great solar exposure here (depending how far and how far uphill I can go from the pool). Expect to do a grid-tied PV system on the roof at some point for electric, but that would go zeroing out electric bill via net metering. But maybe there is an electric pool angle there too, hmmm.
 
A few of my thoughts based on my experience with my daughter's pool installed last summer in NH.

1) Go variable speed for a number of reasons especially that of high electricity costs in New England and the variable speed with save tons of electricity.
2) If going Pentair SWG go IC-60, their largest. My daughter has a similar pool as yours with an IC-40 that struggles mid summer. They must run their IC-40 10-12 hours at 100% output in August. They have a single speed pump because of "floor sweepers" and their electricity costs are extremely high. Not to mention needing to listen to the pump at full speed every hour you'd be outside in the summer.
3) If going DE make certain a drain is plumbed for waste including that from filter cleaning. Their PB didn't provide one and it's a huge hassle and DE powder shouldn't be dumped near people will be for health reasons.
4) Heating a pool in New England, even occasionally, is very expensive regardless of method unless maybe solar. I suggest you run some numbers before you consider it.
 

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raising 26,000 gallons of water + 5 degrees (for example) is a lot of BTUs.
Click to expand...

About 1.2 million BTUs. A 400K gas heater running about 4 hours. A 120K heat pump running about 10 hours.
 
Thanks Fuldo - great tips across the board. Set on VS and DE, the tip on plumbing a DE drain is a great reminder, thank you for that. Missing that currently, will save some time.

On SWG, I think I'm going to hold off and stick with chlorine. Love the water feel factor with SWG, but can always add later. Lots of SWG naysayers around these parts, going to defer for now.

On heat, will definitely do the numbers.
 
Thank you for that. Propane runs about $3/gallon here, and I understand produces about 91,000 BTUs, although perhaps the real world number is lower (not sure how much). If 15 gallons of propane (say $45-$50) brings the pool up 5 degrees, that seems tolerable in some circumstances, eg early autumn weekends and for summer events. Especially if a solar cover is in place for retention. I assume the spring will be a more expensive proposition, since the ground will still be cold and presumably siphoning out the heat more quickly
 
its gonna cost more than that it never works out the same as on paper, but its a ballpark, and once you have heated water you get spoiled. In summer my pool was in the low 80s on average with a solar cover on. Very often my wife, who is a teacher and home summers with the kids, will crank the heater to 90 and that ended up being the norm for them. with the cover we were able to keep it close to 90 for days on end after heating if the air temps stayed up.
I am going to do four 4x12 panels on my lower roof that has a south/south west exposure and is right above my pool equipment. I have a multi tier roof with alot of angles, I dont have anywhere else to put a larger cluster I would need triangle shape panels. I will have about 60% of my pool surface area and I have dark shingles so I will definitely get a few degrees out of it. I already have a hayward control center so I figure the cost of material and pipe and a days labor with one of my employees and i'll be all set. I just need to figure out the programming and setup on my hayward, thats going to be harder for me than the install
 
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