Renovation to begin How important are soft joints in the renovation tile and new granite coping?

[DASpool]

Looking for your valued input on our in progress gunite pool renovation in frost thaw climate Central NJ. The demolition of our former cantilevered concrete decking is complete and this week the PB will begin on removing tile and get to starting the renovation work.
In trying to understand the materials that will be used (reading the TDS). In phone discussion it does not appear that the PB is aware of the TCNA EJ171 Movement Joint guidelines for exterior applications for ceramic and stone, the location and the frequency of these soft joints are called for every 8 ft to 12ft depending on the materials and environmental conditions. We HAD for 21 years tile that never came off the pool (including through this weeks jackhammering!) and back then with the cantilevered deck and NO coping - we had no soft joints in the tile. Now wondering since we will have 12X24x1.5 inch thick granite coping and will be using a 6X6 THROUGH BODY Porcelain water line tile on this renovation, should I be pushing the PB to put in the soft joints if it hasn't been their practice? If I am understanding properly the "soft joint" would be a 100% silicone material and would be in the TILE and then Up through the granite coping stone, too. IS this something to insist on or is it something to go not have and then down the road IF there is cracking, deal with later (not preferable). Not sure if we are allowed to mention product brand names here so want to be respectful. THANK You all in advance
Picture of pool to be redone below so you can see the raised wall of tile too.

 

[ajw22]

What type of tile is being installed?

Pool waterline tile or a raised bond beam wall is not of sufficient size to require soft joints. There is no movement in a gunite shell and little thermal expansion.

You do need an expansion joint between coping and deck.

Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

@AQUA~HOLICS you ever use soft joints in pool tiles?

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

No I have not been exposed to the process of installation.
This may be due to the difference in climate temperatures, West Coast compared to East Coast.

 

[MAPR-Austin]

Aside from glass tiles on exposed walls I haven't seen any soft joints used.

 

[DASpool]

Thank you all and especially Allen - you are truly a gift. We are using through-body 6x6 porcelain tiles. Tile manufacturing has changed in 21 years too but we never lost a tile in 21 years and even through the jackhammering last week - none came loose. We are going from a cantilevered concrete decking to exposed aggregate concrete decking and granite stone (12x24x1.5 inches. I have been told PB will use 100% Silicone (can we say brand?) on the joint between the tile and the coping stone on the inside of the pool. Soto confirm I understood properly that soft joint should be at least 1/2i-inch wide? Any wisdom to share on the optimal size of the grout thickness on the tile or the granite stone?

 

[ajw22]

I have been told PB will use 100% Silicone (can we say brand?) on the joint between the tile and the coping stone on the inside of the pool.

Yes, say what brand since 100% silicone is not a good product to use. Once silicone is put on a surface it is difficult to remove and nothing will stick to it.

Either Deck-O-Seal or Sikaflex1A should be used. These are flexible mastics that can be scraped out of the joint when it needs to be replaced.

DECK-O-SEAL - Polysulfide-Based Joint Sealant

Seal all cracks and joints with DECK-O-SEAL two-part, elastomeric, polysulfide-based joint sealant. DECK-O-SEAL is used for caulking and sealing joints subject to concrete movement to provide a firm, flexible, weather-tight seal. It is ideal for sealing joints around swimming pools, and for...

www.deckoseal.com

Any wisdom to share on the optimal size of the grout thickness on the tile or the granite stone?

Size of grout joints are a personal preference.. Grout joints are often proportional to the size of the tile. Larger joints with larger tiles.

 

[DASpool]

I was told Vulkem 445 SSL would be used on the expansion joint “caulking” after top of the backer rod is removed on the expansion joint between the granite coping stone and exposed aggregate decking. Our concrete will still be green and not fully cured. Supposedly the Vulkem is moisture cured. Is Vulkem appropriate material?
I believe the joint between the 6x6 through porcelain tile and the bottom of the coping stone on the inside of the pool would be filled with Latasil. Sound right? I won’t know exactly what is being used until I see it - I’ve been trying to get product names for the application and it’s challenging. Couldn’t get them called out in contract ahead even though we tried. Also SHOULD there be a piece of plastic above the bond beam as part of the installation? If so, the purpose? Curious. Thanks again

 

[ajw22]

Vulkem 445 SSLIs a polyurethane sealant and is good. Thst is different then the 100% silicone you said before.

Plastic trim depends on how all the materials are built up.

 

[DASpool]

Thank you. I was not clear in my writing. The Vulkem 445 SSL will be used on the expansion joint outside the pool after the granite coping and before the concrete decking begins. The concrete decking will still be green and curing.
Then inside of the pool - just trying to be clear what should be between the top of the tile and the bottom of the coping between them. I believe that will be Latasil but won’t know until I see the actual material PB selected and has here.
I believe PB will use Platinum 254 for thin set on tile and mortar down granite coping stones. Grout would be Permacolor grout for between the waterline 6x6 porcelain tile and the granite coping stones.
The stone purveyor recommends granite / tile be sealed. So that product I actually have on hand called Dry-treat Premium impregnating sealer. Hoping 2 coats - one acting as a grout release and have been warned not to let drip onto the pool shell as it would affect adhesion of bond coat / new plaster.
I believe PB will do 1 good bond coat of Multicoat Skratchkote 2000.
I won’t know what actual materials are being used until I see them but trying to educate ourselves before it begins and trust in the professionals we have hired.
PB and architectural concrete company are the professionals and trying to use materials to manufacturers installation guidelines but their experience rules (not us).
Now we watch the weather temperatures, rain and wind and hope they too are considered and cures times respected.
Renovation is very complex.
PB begins Monday inside the pool with tile demolition, bond beam, pool preparation chipping and we will enjoy watching these people work and hope for a great outcome.
Advice is very welcomed. Thanks

 

[ajw22]

Installation Guidelines

Oceanside Glass & Tile

www.glasstile.com

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...l-Water-Feature-Installation.pdf?v=1625588595

 

[DASpool]

Thank you.

 

[DASpool]

so the concrete contractor demolition removed prior cantilevered decking off bond beam successfully but did not remove dirt so it is adjacent and upto the bondbeam where the PB now is going to dry lay granite coping stone BUT the rain has created mud and it’s too close and too dirty to work to level the bond beam. Concrete company do not do their compacting and stone set up and forms until after coping in place to set their elevation and create downward slope. PB is saying they should have left dirt pulled back and stoned so they can work - concrete people say that’s not their practice and will wait until after stone is set to come in with equipment to level, stone, compact set formed. Now PB has to do something to resolve and trying to get them to communicate. How could PB protect the area without leveling and grading (it’s flat) but close to create a “clean” Working area. PB is using Rapid Set Concrete Leveler to level the bond beam. THOUGHTS? It’s a mud mess. Trying to get contractors talking. Missed expectations on the handoff and if anyone has ideas today should be interesting!

 

[DASpool]

They were supposed to drain pool into the street sewer and had given them the distance so they’d have long enough hoses but No Yesterday - I looked and my grass yard and 2 mature trees were laying in 36000 ???? of water. Only time will tell but will I likely loose the lawn and how about those trees? Hoping for the best

 

[Newdude]

Some climates aren't used to rain but up here you're probably fine.

 

[sande005]

Back in my sand filter days my waste pipe extended about 50+ ft to the discharge area. I drilled a ton of holes on it's length, making a really long lawn sprinkler. Both backwash discharge as well as times when I had to lower due to excess rain (or forgetting to shut off the hose used to top up the pool). Did it for not quite 30 years. Greenest, healthiest part of the yard. Everything grew well, and grass was always longer/greener than other areas when time to mow. Trees, vegetables, flowers, grass all thrived.

Ditto for the grass patch I dump my sanitizing solution from my RV on to (about 50 ppm of CL), although that is only once or twice a year.

I ponder the effects of possible salt buildup in the soil around the pool dump area, now that I have a SWCG. But there isn't a lot, and we do have pretty high levels of rain in our region.

Your plants will be just fine.

 

[Bperry]

They were supposed to drain pool into the street sewer and had given them the distance so they’d have long enough hoses but No Yesterday - I looked and my grass yard and 2 mature trees were laying in 36000 ???? of water. Only time will tell but will I likely loose the lawn and how about those trees? Hoping for the best

It’ll be fine. That area may grow a little faster than the rest for a little bit.

 

[Bperry]

so the concrete contractor demolition removed prior cantilevered decking off bond beam successfully but did not remove dirt so it is adjacent and upto the bondbeam where the PB now is going to dry lay granite coping stone BUT the rain has created mud and it’s too close and too dirty to work to level the bond beam. Concrete company do not do their compacting and stone set up and forms until after coping in place to set their elevation and create downward slope. PB is saying they should have left dirt pulled back and stoned so they can work - concrete people say that’s not their practice and will wait until after stone is set to come in with equipment to level, stone, compact set formed. Now PB has to do something to resolve and trying to get them to communicate. How could PB protect the area without leveling and grading (it’s flat) but close to create a “clean” Working area. PB is using Rapid Set Concrete Leveler to level the bond beam. THOUGHTS? It’s a mud mess. Trying to get contractors talking. Missed expectations on the handoff and if anyone has ideas today should be interesting!

Pictures would be helpful here.

 

[DASpool]

Tried to upload pictures -said too large but will try again. The dirt being too close to the beam has not been resolved after day 2 PB working. They continued anyway and muddy so I’m trying to figure out how they will keep the bond beam clean after they level it with “RapidSet concrete leveler” - hope that is a good product - will read TDS but is it appropriate material? They found no hollows but THEN they said the 21 year old marble was SOFT So started a “full chip out”. Any thoughts on what this will cost - relatively? He was supposed to send a change order and give us a price - but that hasn’t come and they proceeded. In the midst of there equipment kept overloading of electric - and running around to solve that - they went to rent / then bought a generator. Shouldn’t they know the electric pull on running that much equipment and spread it across separate circuits? Shouldn’t they bring a generator? So more chip out coming day 3. Tile and coping delivered today. How much overage of tile should we retain after the job as we overbought to have enough on hand - and will return some for credit after? Original porcelain tile never came off in 21 years because it was set in Marsite. We are still trying to get which products being used but communication is tough - asking as we go to get next steps and trying to anticipate timing. Who should be protecting our
Laid granite coping stone (when that happens) from the mud that is so high against the bond beam? The PB or the concrete people who will shoot their elevation off the laid coping - then stone and compact build 5 piers on the raised hot tub - all without getting mud or chipping my new granite coping? Who’s job to cover the coping material? Do I make sure concrete people hand prep and hand stone and hand ramp down ???? Because can their equipment get in within inches of our soon to be granite stone coping? Got to get some sleep another big day and we are one step ahead- barely. Thank you all for the support. Will try to upload pictures again.

so the concrete contractor demolition removed prior cantilevered decking off bond beam successfully but did not remove dirt so it is adjacent and upto the bondbeam where the PB now is going to dry lay granite coping stone BUT the rain has created mud and it’s too close and too dirty to work to level the bond beam. Concrete company do not do their compacting and stone set up and forms until after coping in place to set their elevation and create downward slope. PB is saying they should have left dirt pulled back and stoned so they can work - concrete people say that’s not their practice and will wait until after stone is set to come in with equipment to level, stone, compact set formed. Now PB has to do something to resolve and trying to get them to communicate. How could PB protect the area without leveling and grading (it’s flat) but close to create a “clean” Working area. PB is using Rapid Set Concrete Leveler to level the bond beam. THOUGHTS? It’s a mud mess. Trying to get contractors talking. Missed expectations on the handoff and if anyone has ideas today should be interesting!

tried to upload files and says too big and 3x I’m out!

 

[ajw22]

Picture Posting and Resizing - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[DASpool]

Each jpg file is too big to upload. I need to sleep. Trying