Shock/Tingle getting into/out of pool

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I just turned the breakers back on- and measured the handrails again

without the wire running into the water between the handrails (pics right above) - I am getting about 4 - 4.2 volts on both handrails.

When I add the wire and hang it in the water- the bonding wire in the water seems to make a big difference


The handrails to the water then measure in the 0.1 or under range.

It has to be a bonding issue -I can only assume in the handrail area- but maybe along the coping on the side because I still register in the range of .235 on the side about 6 feet from the handrails (on both sides of the pool).
 
I dont think you should need the water bond. Try it without it.

But that is progress and what I was expecting.
 
Then that means you probably have a leak in the pool that is bringing the water potential to that of earth ground.
 
Another thought, can you extend that temp bond to the ladder? Just want to make sure that is bonded as well. Again, try it with no water bond.
 
just for a quick test, how about moving temp bond to the ladder, then measure the voltage to the water. This may confirm bonding.
 
mas985 said:
just for a quick test, how about moving temp bond to the ladder, then measure the voltage to the water. This may confirm bonding.
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ok, i'll pick up some more wire tomorrow. I have 50 feet and probably need 75 for that.

For the fun of it, I just ran some water in my garden tub in the bathroom and stuck one probe in about an inch of water and one probe to the faucet handle- got over 2 volts. I thought it would be 0 or really close to it.

I'm now relegated to taking my meter everywhere I go and making random measurements.
 

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mas985 said:
I didn't mean you need more wire. Just move the wire you have from the other railings to to the ladder
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I read through last evenings posts carefully - very informative, seems like you're getting closer. If I synthesize all that correctly, I'm left in full agreement that it's a bonding issue, and that this last test with a new ladder bond will mean a lot, whether by using more wire or by moving existing new "array-o-bond" from the rails (or try it both ways when more wire is available). I suppose we also know the ladder to water measurements are always zero - to be expected since the ladder is in the water, especially when the meter is in the water near the ladder (duh). Then I think there are still three possible explanations for a missing bond that results in raising the potential of the water, or a combination of these three:
  1. Unbonded ladder that raises the potential of the water and ladder.
  2. The aforementioned water leak/seepage raising the potential of the water to earth ground.
  3. Some other unbonded item like a metal light niche/luminaire, in contact with the water, raising the potential of the water. And perhaps this one aggravated by any water that may have leaked into a luminaire.
At first I also thought it might be a remaining mystery - or a clue - in the fact that the coping to water measurements yielded potential difference (voltage). But then I think that clue fits the above three possible conclusions since the coping may be picking up bonding from the deck, imperfect bonding as it may be, variable depending on whether water is present, leaving the possible conclusion that the water is being elevated by something, such as the three possibilities listed above. Make sense?
 
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nuttyp said:
  1. Unbonded ladder that raises the potential of the water and ladder.
  2. The aforementioned water leak/seepage raising the potential of the water to earth ground.
  3. Some other unbonded item like a metal light niche/luminaire, in contact with the water, raising the potential of the water. And perhaps this one aggravated by any water that may have leaked into a luminaire.
At first I also thought it might be a remaining mystery - or a clue - in the fact that the coping to water measurements yielded potential difference (voltage). But then I think that clue fits the above three possible conclusions since the coping may be picking up bonding from the deck, imperfect bonding as it may be, variable depending on whether water is present, leaving the possible conclusion that the water is being elevated by something, such as the three possibilities listed above. Make sense?
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Yes.

I've never had anyone look at the light niche other than I finally unwired all the wiring powering the light itself (of course I didn't remove the niche so I have no idea about the bond wire to it - quality of it, etc. Water leaked into the light itself anyway and the bulb finally went out and I just said the heck with it. I didn't use it much anyway but would like to replace it sometime with a better quality one.

I guess I could have an electrician put in a new light for me and maybe even a new niche for it and check the bonding when doing it. Right?

I'll affix the wire to the ladder later today to do those measurements.
 
Well, you may be down the road making progress with the other/ladder tests before dealing with the light. And @mas985 might have other ideas, but seems to me the light bonding could be tested before you get around to replacements. Is the outer ring of the light (ie luminaire) metal? The niche metal? Either way the niche should have the #8 bonding wire along with the other wires exiting the niche through a sealed rigid conduit and up to a junction box. If you can access the junction box and disconnect the bond wire there (temporarily just for this test) you could then measure for voltage between the water and the end of the niche-end of that wire. If I'm thinking straight, voltage would mean something wrong in that bond wire. You could also measure resistance (ohms) across that disconnected bond wire, but I'm not sure what to expect if the probe was in the water - better if one end of the probe was held against the outer ring of the metal luminaire.

Things I don't know at the moment: Whether they ever run the niche bond direct to the reinforcement mesh and not through the conduit. And I don't know how one replaces a niche - all the ones I've seen are cemented into the sidewall of the pool. Partial draining perhaps if that was needed. Answers probably in other TFP threads and elsewhere :)
 
nuttyp said:
Well, you may be down the road making progress with the other/ladder tests before dealing with the light. And @mas985 might have other ideas, but seems to me the light bonding could be tested before you get around to replacements. Is the outer ring of the light (ie luminaire) metal? The niche metal? Either way the niche should have the #8 bonding wire along with the other wires exiting the niche through a sealed rigid conduit and up to a junction box. If you can access the junction box and disconnect the bond wire there (temporarily just for this test) you could then measure for voltage between the water and the end of the niche-end of that wire. If I'm thinking straight, voltage would mean something wrong in that bond wire. You could also measure resistance (ohms) across that disconnected bond wire, but I'm not sure what to expect if the probe was in the water - better if one end of the probe was held against the outer ring of the metal luminaire.

Things I don't know at the moment: Whether they ever run the niche bond direct to the reinforcement mesh and not through the conduit. And I don't know how one replaces a niche - all the ones I've seen are cemented into the sidewall of the pool. Partial draining perhaps if that was needed. Answers probably in other TFP threads and elsewhere :)
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I know there is a ground wire at the junction box for the light behind the pool. I don't recall seeing a bonding wire in that junction box but I can look again later today. I have already taken the wiring loose from the screws in that box. (yes, before that, I did get a reading of about 2 volts from the metal light housing to the pool water).

I had pulled the light assembly itself up to the pool deck for the measurement.

I just went out and walked around my pool. Took measurements with the pump running. Both handrails to the water are approx 0.068 volts (This is with the new temporary bond wire running from the pump lug over to the handrails with a piece of bond wire hanging down into the water at the steps like the picture I posted above)

Then I walked around the entire pool measuring from the coping to the water and got a pretty consistent 0.245 volts in the 4 spots I checked around the pool.

Am I looking for 0 volts? What is the standard I should be looking for?
 
You will always get a least a tiny bit of voltage when measuring to water just because there is some current flowing through it and it has some significant resistance. You would only get 0 volts if the two touch points are on the same copper conductor. Anything less than 1v I would not get concerned about.

Note: If you put the two volt meter probes in the water separated by a couple feet, you will likely see some voltage.
 
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I just checked my pool and I get 2mv between the water and my railing and I know the railing is bonded since I checked all bonding points before they sprayed gunite and poured the deck plus no shocks. So I think you should always expect some delta V.
 
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If it adds anything, I too measured around my pool. Less applicable in my case because I only have one metal object in the water - the rail which dips a few inches into the pool. Rail to water (near the rail) is of course very low, maybe 0-1mv (.001v). Of course as I move the water probe 2 ft away from the rail I start to get 2mv or 3mv. Other metal parts are my cage, which I know is bonded via an observable lug and resistance measurements of near zero to bonding wires. Sometimes cage is 3 ft from the water's edge, sometimes more. Where it's 3 ft from the spa, I get about 10-15mv (.015v) and for the areas where cage is farther away like 5' I get up to 25mv (.025v) and those values too rise a bit depending on how far out into the water the probe is. Don't know if that helps but fun testing anyway. As another reference, in Mike Holt's tests they were getting 0.1v (100mv) everywhere (but not sure of his range setting). Low values good, same values good, 2-4 volts and big differences not so good, as said by the person who got tingles.
 
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While awaiting the ladder test, does it make sense to continue the light/niche discussion? I'll weigh in some more, but maybe worth considering later.....
About this result of 2 volts light test:
Barry321 said:
I know there is a ground wire at the junction box for the light behind the pool. I don't recall seeing a bonding wire in that junction box but I can look again later today. I have already taken the wiring loose from the screws in that box. (yes, before that, I did get a reading of about 2 volts from the metal light housing to the pool water)
Click to expand...
It's not such a valid / meaningful test with the light up on the deck, I don't think. To restate the goal of this: Just trying to ascertain whether the light niche bond is in place and solid. Although the luminaire housing has a ground wire, it's smaller (maybe #12) and the assembly is not truly bonded until the outer ring of the light is screwed to the niche - since the #8 bonding wire is attached to the niche, not the light. So your test with the light on the deck measures voltage across the ground wire from the point at the luminaire to the first place it joins the bonding grid - perhaps back at the transformer and pump - then on to the water. So not real informative and perhaps not surprising to get 2 volts.

From diagrams I've seen that niche bonding should go two places: up the conduit to the J-box where it joins the ground wire, and also directly from the niche to the rest of the reinforcement and bonding grid assembled at build time (pictured). The approved junction boxes also typically have a lug on the bottom that I suppose can continue the bonding for attachment elsewhere to the bonding grid. What eludes me is why some diagrams show the use of that J-box lug and others do not. My #8 wire terminates at the j-box on a little busbar with the ground wires - the #8 stops there, nothing attached to the lug below. Perhaps it's a decision made at build time, whether to use the Jbox lug or simply connect the niche to the grid directly underground, I don't know.
1720470961506.png
 
ok

At pump- the temporary new copper wire is connected to my existing bond wire and connected to the pump lug. (just like it was above when I tested the handrails)

Then I ran the wire all the way over to the rails of the ladder (not connected to the other handrails anymore- just running along the ground and pool deck)

0.0 - one probe in water
IMG_1892.jpeg

Now - one probe in water and one probe on concrete - 0.396 volts
IMG_1893.jpeg

Now one probe in water, one on metal coping. Measurement - 0.59 volts
IMG_1894.jpeg


and - one probe in water, one on metal coping with an approx. 4 foot long piece of copper wire in the pool- one end touching the coping right near one probe. (You can see me trying to hold both the probe and the copper wire to the coping in the picture below) Measurement - 0.084
IMG_1895.jpeg

The volts appear to drop in a significant way when there is a wire in the water.
 

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