Cyanuric Acid - necessary evil?

[P00LNerd]

You guys have been a huge help, and it looks like I have some reading to do, now. A few things immediately come to mind, after reading all of your posts:

1. Manually dosing isn't a great option for me. I don't mind doing it when I'm here, but I'm usually away at least two weeks every summer. Some sort of automated system that can carry near base load, which I can manually dose atop for fine-tuning, is probably my best option.
2. I'm sure we won't mind any minor salt taste. heck, I grew up swimming and water skiing in the Atlantic Ocean and associated bays. I love salt water.
3. I'm still confused by CYA levels. I came into this thread on the advice from Frog and my pool retailer, that CYA should be zero. All of the guidelines I read on this site indicate that my current level (55 ppm) is actually close to ideal. If that's the case, I'm more inclined to make no change.

 

[Newdude]

but I'm usually away at least two weeks every summer.

SWGs allow folks to vacation at will, once they learn the system and how the pool responds to it.

I grew up swimming and water skiing in the Atlantic Ocean and associated bays. I love salt water.

I turned it down when the PB suggested it, not wanting to be crusty with evaporated salt like at the beach. The PB assured me it was nothing like the ocean and boy oh BOY am I glad I listened. We taste it just a little. Like a dash of salt on a meal. The ocean on the other hand is Cambell's chicken noodle soup.

All of the guidelines I read on this site indicate that my current level (55 ppm) is actually close to ideal. If that's the case, I'm more inclined to make no change.

30 is likely good for PA. If you were to see some higher losses, then raising to 40 would fix that. There's no harm in 60 (round up) unless you get alage and need to slam. Each 10 CYA raises the slam FC by 4ppm. (40%) and it gets expensive quickly.

How are you testing ? Test strips and pool stores have kept a line of newbs around the corner for 17 years needing to seek us out.

 

[P00LNerd]

How are you testing ? Test strips and pool stores have kept a line of newbs around the corner for 17 years needing to seek us out.

That's a whole other issue I wanted to bring up with you good folks, but figured I'd resolve one issue before muddying the waters with another.

Let me grab some photos and test reports after my 4pm meeting, and post them in another thread. I'll link it back here. There's some issues, for sure, but probably best to address them separate from this thread.

 

[Newdude]

There's some issues, for sure, but probably best to address them separate from this thread.

You can alter the title here to say 'new with questions' or such and be pre-covered for anything that arises in your journey.

In case the meeting is boring, I broke down the test kit details here :

Looking to buy a test kit, need advice...

I am looking to buy a test kit. My pool details are provided below: 13,500 Gallons Pebble Finish Jandy 2.7 HP VS FloPro Jandy 200 Sqft Cartridge Filter Jandy TruClear SWG Jandy 103k BTU VersaTemp Heater K-2006C-SALT Test Kit (Planned). I have researched this topic briefly and am interested in...

www.troublefreepool.com

This is the technical details:
Test Kits Compared

 

[Mdragger88]

You guys have been a huge help, and it looks like I have some reading to do, now. A few things immediately come to mind, after reading all of your posts:

1. Manually dosing isn't a great option for me. I don't mind doing it when I'm here, but I'm usually away at least two weeks every summer. Some sort of automated system that can carry near base load, which I can manually dose atop for fine-tuning, is probably my best option.

If you’re a manual doser & you must be away for vacation you can raise fc to slam level for your cya & throw in a floater with some tabs. You would need to keep your cya downish in advance of this so you can afford the cya increase they will give .
We also suggest having someone vist at once a week or so to check on things & maybe add a little more liquid chlorine

1. I'm sure we won't mind any minor salt taste. heck, I grew up swimming and water skiing in the Atlantic Ocean and associated bays. I love salt water.

It’s no where near that much salt

1. I'm still confused by CYA levels. I came into this thread on the advice from Frog and my pool retailer, that CYA should be zero. All of the guidelines I read on this site indicate that my current level (55 ppm) is actually close to ideal. If that's the case, I'm more inclined to make no change.

The one change to make is to get rid of the frog (remove its contents) and put the pool on the liquid diet.

 

[CreedenceTapes]

I'm sure we won't mind any minor salt taste.

Then you're going to want to go SWCG for sure. I think someone called it out above, but remember when you're reading up and pricing things out that you want a SWCG that's rated for twice your pool volume or more.

Test strips and pool stores have kept a line of newbs around the corner for 17 years needing to seek us out.

I'm still a relative newcomer here, but I'd say between chlorine tablets and assorted pool-store clownery, including their in-store testing and strips, it accounts for well over 90% of new users.

If you’re a manual doser & you must be away for vacation you can raise fc to slam level for your cya & throw in a floater with some tabs. You would need to keep your cya downish in advance of this so you can afford the cya increase they will give.

This is the way that I do it. I run my CYA lean till travel time so I can use trichlor while I'm gone. It helps that I live in neighborhood where everyone has a pool and I don't have to explain things like the water needs to be halfway up the skimmer and they shouldn't see air through the pump lid.

 

[Newdude]

assorted pool-store clownery,

*stealing. THANKS.

 

[P00LNerd]

How are you testing ? Test strips and pool stores have kept a line of newbs around the corner for 17 years needing to seek us out.

See new thread, here: POOLNerd vs. pool retailer - who's test is more accurate?

In case the meeting is boring, I broke down the test kit details here :

Looking to buy a test kit, need advice...

I am looking to buy a test kit. My pool details are provided below: 13,500 Gallons Pebble Finish Jandy 2.7 HP VS FloPro Jandy 200 Sqft Cartridge Filter Jandy TruClear SWG Jandy 103k BTU VersaTemp Heater K-2006C-SALT Test Kit (Planned). I have researched this topic briefly and am interested in...

www.troublefreepool.com

This is the technical details:
Test Kits Compared

Thanks for the link! When my Taylor kit expires or runs out, I should probably hop over to these TF kits. But I think the Taylor kit is giving pretty good results, right now. I think...

If you’re a manual doser & you must be away for vacation you can raise fc to slam level for your cya & throw in a floater with some tabs. You would need to keep your cya downish in advance of this so you can afford the cya increase they will give .

I guess I could switch to manual dosing, and just leave the Frog sanitizer there, even bypass it (I installed bypass valve over winter), and just install a torpedo before we go away. In fact, since our cover stays on more days than coming off spring/fall, that Frog sanitizer might be my best method of manual dosing. Pour the dose into that, then let the pump push it out to the pool, without having to remove the cover.

We also suggest having someone vist at once a week or so to check on things & maybe add a little more liquid chlorine

I'm almost never away more than a week. Even when we take 2-week vacations, I come home the weekend in-between to mow the lawn, check the house and property, and clean the chicken coop.

The one change to make is to get rid of the frog (remove its contents) and put the pool on the liquid diet.

I think that's where we're headed, at least for this summer. I can evaluate re-plumbing for a SWCG over next winter, when I don't have the time pressure of keeping things running.

Then you're going to want to go SWCG for sure. I think someone called it out above, but remember when you're reading up and pricing things out that you want a SWCG that's rated for twice your pool volume or more.

Noted. I agree, this seems like a good long-term solution, after we get through this season.

I'm surprised that most here report using no algicide. So, most of you are just keeping pH level and adding liquid chlorine or SWCG? No anti-algae, no anti-stain/scale liquids?

Here's my current regimen:

1. Opening
   1. Algicide 90-day
   2. Scale and Stain
2. Daily
   1. Test strip - quick check
   2. Get the Taylor kit to double-check, if anything looks off
3. Every Weekend
   1. Full test with Taylor kit
   2. Check Frog Torpedo chlorine remaining
   3. Scale and Stain preventer (5 oz. / 15k gal)
4. Every Mid-Week
   1. Pool Perfect Total (6 oz / 15k gal)
5. Shock every second weekend
   1. Use liquid chlorine of FC levels are low
   2. Use Oxy-Out if chlorine is on-target or high
6. If leaving cover off (select warm weeks)
   1. Cover Free (3 oz. / 15k gal)

 

[Newdude]

Here's my current regimen:

You're gonna LOVE it here. With liquid chlorine or SWG, either way is on the cheap and easy.

Chlorine to replace the daily FC loss
Muriatic acid to lower PH once a week or so.

*done*

No shocks, floccs, or other crocks. Just calcium or cya as needed with rain dilution. Without a gas heater, you don't even need any calcium because vinyl.

 

[P00LNerd]

You're gonna LOVE it here. With liquid chlorine or SWG, either way is on the cheap and easy.

Thanks, I'm starting to catch on.

Chlorine to replace the daily FC loss
Muriatic acid to lower PH once a week or so.

I've heard others mention having to lower pH on a regular basis, but I never have. I've had to lower it maybe twice since starting last summer, but I've had to raise it maybe 3x in the same amount of time. Always small adjustments (eg. +/- 0.4 max). Not sure if we have acid rain, or if CYA reduces pH, or what... our Alkalinity is usually 100 - 110, and it's never dipped below 80.

No shocks, floccs, or other crocks. Just calcium or cya as needed with rain dilution. Without a gas heater, you don't even need any calcium because vinyl.

No shocks would be great. Always seemed to me shock must be hard on everything from the liner to the pump, but it was sold to me as a necessary evil.

We do have a heater, but it's a heat pump, ACT-750.

 

[Newdude]

I've heard others mention having to lower pH on a regular basis, but I never have

The CYA(cid) in the pucks lowers PH. So many coming off pucks see a rise when they never had one.

But once we get you dialed in you might not have any rise at all with the vinyl. I added acid once last year and probably won't add any this year.

No shocks would be great

Shock is defined as a sudden, often violent change.

The only reason to shock a pool or a person is if they're DOA.

Always seemed to me shock must be hard on everything from the liner to the pump, but it was sold to me as a necessary evil.

It all depends on your CYA and your baseline FC. They factor neither and tell you to just dump X bags in.

 

[Mdragger88]

In fact, since our cover stays on more days than coming off spring/fall, that Frog sanitizer might be my best method of manual dosing. Pour the dose into that, then let the pump push it out to the pool, without having to remove the cover.

You should not mix forms of chlorine if that’s what you mean. Liquid chlorine should not be added via a trichlor dispenser.

 

[CreedenceTapes]

See new thread, here: POOLNerd vs. pool retailer - who's test is more accurate?


Thanks for the link! When my Taylor kit expires or runs out, I should probably hop over to these TF kits. But I think the Taylor kit is giving pretty good results, right now. I think...


I guess I could switch to manual dosing, and just leave the Frog sanitizer there, even bypass it (I installed bypass valve over winter), and just install a torpedo before we go away. In fact, since our cover stays on more days than coming off spring/fall, that Frog sanitizer might be my best method of manual dosing. Pour the dose into that, then let the pump push it out to the pool, without having to remove the cover.


I'm almost never away more than a week. Even when we take 2-week vacations, I come home the weekend in-between to mow the lawn, check the house and property, and clean the chicken coop.


I think that's where we're headed, at least for this summer. I can evaluate re-plumbing for a SWCG over next winter, when I don't have the time pressure of keeping things running.


Noted. I agree, this seems like a good long-term solution, after we get through this season.

I'm surprised that most here report using no algicide. So, most of you are just keeping pH level and adding liquid chlorine or SWCG? No anti-algae, no anti-stain/scale liquids?

Here's my current regimen:

1. Opening
   1. Algicide 90-day
   2. Scale and Stain
2. Daily
   1. Test strip - quick check
   2. Get the Taylor kit to double-check, if anything looks off
3. Every Weekend
   1. Full test with Taylor kit
   2. Check Frog Torpedo chlorine remaining
   3. Scale and Stain preventer (5 oz. / 15k gal)
4. Every Mid-Week
   1. Pool Perfect Total (6 oz / 15k gal)
5. Shock every second weekend
   1. Use liquid chlorine of FC levels are low
   2. Use Oxy-Out if chlorine is on-target or high
6. If leaving cover off (select warm weeks)
   1. Cover Free (3 oz. / 15k gal)

I check FC, pH, and temperature daily. If I didn't have a pH meter that made it so easy to measure pH, I'd only check it a couple of times a week.

I add liquid chlorine daily. I add muriatic acid every other week or so.

My water stays crystal clear.

 

[Newdude]

My water stays crystal clear.

With an open yard and the sun behind the pool, I can't see my water. It hurts too much to look at.

 

[CreedenceTapes]

With an open yard and the sun behind the pool, I can't see my water. It hurts too much to look at.

View attachment 582298

Your pool's so bright, you gotta wear shades... you gotta wear shades

 

[CreedenceTapes]

I check FC, pH, and temperature daily. If I didn't have a pH meter that made it so easy to measure pH, I'd only check it a couple of times a week.

I add liquid chlorine daily. I add muriatic acid every other week or so.

My water stays crystal clear.

Oh, and CYA monthly or as needed. That was pre-2nd-cup-of-coffee. I check other stuff intermittently, too, but some are purely optional, like borates and phosphates, and some, like calcium, don't move enough for me to check unless I'm bored. I check TA the day after MA additions, but it's pretty predictable thus far. It drifts up from my fill water, then MA takes it down. They've been playing together nicely.

CC, I check about monthly. It's always been 0.0 since I deliberately became a member of #TeamRunHot. Actually, since I took over the pool from the previous owner, because I was lucky enough to find TFP straightaway.

 

[P00LNerd]

You should not mix forms of chlorine if that’s what you mean. Liquid chlorine should not be added via a trichlor dispenser.

Not mixing. I was just thinking that perhaps the empty/unused trichlor dispenser would be a good way to inject liquid chlorine into the pool, without having to remove the solar cover everyday. Outside of July, we probably use the pool only a few hours per week. The solar cover is on the pool 99% of the time spring/fall, and maybe 80% of the time in summer. So, manual dosing liquid chlorine onto the surface would be an enormous PITA, I really don't think I could sign up for that, if it means removing the cover every day we are not using the pool. We are still seeing temperatures in the 40F's at night and just 70's most days, hence the solar cover, this ain't Florida!

If I were not running the chlorine torpedo in the dichlor dispenser, it'd be surely clean of any dichlor remnants after a few hours at 50 - 70 GPM. Seems that would make an ideal vessel to dump liquid chlorine, and inject it into the pool thru the returns with solar cover installed.

I check FC, pH, and temperature daily. If I didn't have a pH meter that made it so easy to measure pH, I'd only check it a couple of times a week.

pH meter? Do tell! I have one that tests soil pH, a pretty coarse analog passive galvanic probe, but I don't think it has the level of accuracy required for pool water.

My water stays crystal clear.

Same. My water has always been perfectly clear, we've actually never had any problem with the Frog system. The only reason I ended up here is that the pool retailer and the Frog literature both told me my CYA level should be near zero, and my FC level should be 0.5 - 2.0 ppm. But our levels always trend up toward CYA = 50+ ppm and FC = 2 - 6 ppm. which the Frog marketing had me thinking was too high. Now I'm being told those are better levels anyway... all of which makes me think the Frog system isn't quite as troublesome as I originally thought.

In terms of clarity, our water has always been perfectly clear, never any issue, there.

Of course, now you've educated me on anti-algea, metals, everything else. I wasn't really giving any thought to those things previously, and we have observed above-the-waterline staining inside skimmer and on stairs, which I suspect is related to those products. If those products are unnecessary with proper FC & CYA, I'm probably most inclined to just drop them, and see how well I can follow the TFP FC/CYA guidelines with the Frog. Let it handle base-dosing, and continue manually-dosing liquid chlorine (on surface) to fine-tune.

 

[SJPoe]

Of course, now you've educated me on anti-algea, metals, everything else. I wasn't really giving any thought to those things previously, and we have observed above-the-waterline staining inside skimmer and on stairs, which I suspect is related to those products. If those products are unnecessary with proper FC & CYA, I'm probably most inclined to just drop them, and see how well I can follow the TFP FC/CYA guidelines with the Frog. Let it handle base-dosing, and continue manually-dosing liquid chlorine (on surface) to fine-tune.

Here's the short answer. There is no magic bullet to pool sanitation. You need something that kills the nasties - and 99% of that is Chlorine. Everything else is pretty much Snake Oil. By 'Trouble Free', we mean no issues with Algae, no getting upsold at the pool store all the time etc. That doesn't mean 'Hands Free'.

The key to the TFPC 'system' is being able to test and verify what we are doing, and then maintaining a proper FC -> CYA ratio. This ensures the right amount of active sanitizer in the pool at all times, and prevention is better than cure. If you can't measure something, how do you know if it's at the right level to do what it's supposed to do ?

If you want to go beyond 'Trouble Free' and truly want as hands-free, trouble-free, maintenance-free as you can get, you want to go with a Salt Water Chlorine Generator. A lot of people here also have extensive automation that adjusts levels, heaters, valves and so on.

Me personally, I might spend 5-10 minutes a day 'actively' looking after the pool. It's less 'trouble' than my coffee machine frankly.

 

[CreedenceTapes]

pH meter?

Apera PH60 : I've only had it a few months, so I can't speak to longevity, but it's accuracy, precision, and ease of use are great. Way better than one would expect for the price.

 

[Mdragger88]

Not mixing. I was just thinking that perhaps the empty/unused trichlor dispenser would be a good way to inject liquid chlorine into the pool,

Even if it has been cleaned out this is not recommended as residuals can remain.
Lifting the cover a little near a return & pouring in liquid chlorine is recommended.