Replace pump for extra height

[Cueva aran-riodh]

Hi. Hope everyone is well. I have an interesting, to me, question. Background. I built a small in/above ground pool several years ago, basic but I’m pleased with it. It’s 2x2m, 1.1m deep. Just to cool off in our 50°c summers. I put the plumbing in with a central exit in the floor and one for a skimmer (all diy) halfway up the wall which returns the water back in the pool on the next wall. Cool. . The second year I thought, “waterfall” so I chopped up the plumbing and added a diversion to make a rock waterfall. I can control entry to the pool by taps, adjusting for extra flow to the pool or the waterfall. Last year,I decided to rig up an external heater to extend the use.more chopping, more taps. Amazingly no leaks, everything works and it’s cool. When heating I have to sacrifice flow into the pool somewhat but the water does keep moving. Now.

My plumbing is all 32mm, then it steps down to 25mm for the waterfall, then 16mm for the heater, which is 25m of black irrigation pipe circled on the floor. I plan to add another 25m but…I also want to place the heater 2.25m above the pool on the frame for our solar panels, and maintain or increase flow through the pool to keep it clean (we have a *lot* of dust in the air). I have a Bestway pump at the moment, which I have converted to use filter balls, and it will lift water about 1m higher than it stands, through the 16mm pipe, but the waterfall (25mm) has a stronger flow at about 18” above the pump.

To the question. If I replace the pump with a stronger model (mindful of our solar power system) can I get higher head? I’m looking at pumps that are 3000l/h plus around 120€, which are well within our power limits, but I don’t really know how to work out/decide what to do? Increase the pipe diameter of the heater? Which will take longer to warm water due to faster flow. I’d rather stay with the 16mm pipe, add a non-return valve and get it working that way.

 

[mas985]

To the question. If I replace the pump with a stronger model (mindful of our solar power system) can I get higher head?

Sure but you have to buy a pump with higher maximum head (i.e. higher head curve).

I’m looking at pumps that are 3000l/h plus around 120€, which are well within our power limits, but I don’t really know how to work out/decide what to do?

Higher flow rate does not always result in higher head. Again, one has to look at the pump's full head curve to determine how the pump will perform.

Increase the pipe diameter of the heater? Which will take longer to warm water due to faster flow. I’d rather stay with the 16mm pipe, add a non-return valve and get it working that way.

Faster flow rate does not mean it takes longer to heat. In fact, it is just the opposite.

The heat transfer from the heater to the pool water is proportional to the product of the pump flow rate AND the temperature difference between the inlet and outlet temperatures. If you double the flow rate, the heater inlet/outlet temperature difference halves but the product (i.e. heat transfer) remains the same. However, heat loss is proportional to the outlet temperature and surrounding environment temperature. So the higher the outlet temperature, the more heat is lost to the environment and never makes it to the pool. So you are better off with higher flow rate.

 

[1poolman1]

Hi. Hope everyone is well. I have an interesting, to me, question. Background. I built a small in/above ground pool several years ago, basic but I’m pleased with it. It’s 2x2m, 1.1m deep. Just to cool off in our 50°c summers. I put the plumbing in with a central exit in the floor and one for a skimmer (all diy) halfway up the wall which returns the water back in the pool on the next wall. Cool. . The second year I thought, “waterfall” so I chopped up the plumbing and added a diversion to make a rock waterfall. I can control entry to the pool by taps, adjusting for extra flow to the pool or the waterfall. Last year,I decided to rig up an external heater to extend the use.more chopping, more taps. Amazingly no leaks, everything works and it’s cool. When heating I have to sacrifice flow into the pool somewhat but the water does keep moving. Now.

My plumbing is all 32mm, then it steps down to 25mm for the waterfall, then 16mm for the heater, which is 25m of black irrigation pipe circled on the floor. I plan to add another 25m but…I also want to place the heater 2.25m above the pool on the frame for our solar panels, and maintain or increase flow through the pool to keep it clean (we have a *lot* of dust in the air). I have a Bestway pump at the moment, which I have converted to use filter balls, and it will lift water about 1m higher than it stands, through the 16mm pipe, but the waterfall (25mm) has a stronger flow at about 18” above the pump.

To the question. If I replace the pump with a stronger model (mindful of our solar power system) can I get higher head? I’m looking at pumps that are 3000l/h plus around 120€, which are well within our power limits, but I don’t really know how to work out/decide what to do? Increase the pipe diameter of the heater? Which will take longer to warm water due to faster flow. I’d rather stay with the 16mm pipe, add a non-return valve and get it working that way.

In terms we use, you are looking for a pump that will move 13 gallons/minute for $130.00 USD. You now move water initially through 1.25" then 1" pipe that then goes into 5/8" black irrigation tubing for solar after going through a tiny sand filter that has filter balls in it.

If the equipment is not high above the pool this from Amazon may work. With a valve you can always adjust the flow through the solar plumbing:

Amazon.com

 

[mas985]

If the equipment is not high above the pool this from Amazon may work. With a valve you can always adjust the flow through the solar plumbing:

Amazon.com

Maximum suction height for that pump is listed at 32 feet and there is no way that pump will lift 32 feet on the suction side. 32 ft is close to the vaporization of water in a column (i.e. static cavitation). It is basically saying that NPSHr is 0 PSIa which is just not possible. No pool pump can do that so they are misrepresenting the pump performance.

Also, it also doesn't show maximum head loss as far as I can tell so it is not clear that one would meet the requirements. Plus give the specification for suction lift, I wouldn't trust anything from that manufacture.

 

[1poolman1]

Maximum suction height for that pump is listed at 32 feet and there is no way that pump will lift 32 feet on the suction side. 32 ft is close to the vaporization of water in a column (i.e. static cavitation). It is basically saying that NPSHr is 0 PSIa which is just not possible. No pool pump can do that so they are misrepresenting the pump performance.

Also, it also doesn't show maximum head loss as far as I can tell so it is not clear that one would meet the requirements. Plus give the specification for suction lift, I wouldn't trust anything from that manufacture.

Don't know of any pool pump that could lift water 32' and it wasn't one of the requirements. The only mention of 32 was 32MM (1.25") pipe.
He asked for cheap and 13gpm. Suggestion on what is available. Every pump in that range and type is misrepresented as are all the packages that come with above ground pools, which the OP seems to have, of sorts.

 

[Cueva aran-riodh]

In terms we use, you are looking for a pump that will move 13 gallons/minute for $130.00 USD. You now move water initially through 1.25" then 1" pipe that then goes into 5/8" black irrigation tubing for solar after going through a tiny sand filter that has filter balls in it.

If the equipment is not high above the pool this from Amazon may work. With a valve you can always adjust the flow through the solar plumbing:

https://www.amazon.com/XtremepowerU...sprefix=pool+pump,lawngarden,227&sr=1-15[/URL

http://

These might help because I have little knowledge in this area. The pool is half in/out of the ground. The little bench to lie/sit on hides the pump/plumbing. As you can see, my ‘heater’ is a coil of pipe currently laid on the ground. I would like to place the ‘heater’ in front of the solar panels that give us our power. At the moment I have to move the ‘heater’ to keep it in the sun, but if it goes up there it will be in sun all day and I can then turn off the flow once the water is warm enough for my wife (she’s had surgery and 28°C is the bare min she can stand; if I can get another 2-3°C it would be fantastic).

In the final image you can see the pump is below water level. (1) is the pool inlet. (2) shows the ‘T’ up to the waterfall, and (3) the tap that closes the waterfall to divert water to the heater. The blue tap next to (2) is the heater. When I want the pool to be full circulation/cleaning, I open (1) but close (2) and (3) so water goes full flow back in the pool. If I want the waterfall only, I close (1) and open (3). If I want the heater, I open the blue tap at (2) and adjust flow using (1). [I like to have some water coming back in through the main inlet at all times.]

The solar panel frame is 2.25m above ground, therefore above the pump too. The idea is to lift (?) the water to the coil at that level. Because the pump will be in the same place, below the water level, it will always have water in if I open the outlet taps, is this what you call ‘primed’?, so am I right in thinking that suction isn’t the problem but power ‘out’ from the pump to get the water up to the level I want?

 

[1poolman1]

http://

These might help because I have little knowledge in this area. The pool is half in/out of the ground. The little bench to lie/sit on hides the pump/plumbing. As you can see, my ‘heater’ is a coil of pipe currently laid on the ground. I would like to place the ‘heater’ in front of the solar panels that give us our power. At the moment I have to move the ‘heater’ to keep it in the sun, but if it goes up there it will be in sun all day and I can then turn off the flow once the water is warm enough for my wife (she’s had surgery and 28°C is the bare min she can stand; if I can get another 2-3°C it would be fantastic).

In the final image you can see the pump is below water level. (1) is the pool inlet. (2) shows the ‘T’ up to the waterfall, and (3) the tap that closes the waterfall to divert water to the heater. The blue tap next to (2) is the heater. When I want the pool to be full circulation/cleaning, I open (1) but close (2) and (3) so water goes full flow back in the pool. If I want the waterfall only, I close (1) and open (3). If I want the heater, I open the blue tap at (2) and adjust flow using (1). [I like to have some water coming back in through the main inlet at all times.]

The solar panel frame is 2.25m above ground, therefore above the pump too. The idea is to lift (?) the water to the coil at that level. Because the pump will be in the same place, below the water level, it will always have water in if I open the outlet taps, is this what you call ‘primed’?, so am I right in thinking that suction isn’t the problem but power ‘out’ from the pump to get the water up to the level I want?

Best that can be said is that the Amazon-listed pump may work.

 

[Cueva aran-riodh]

If you think it’s really not possible/good idea to try lift the water 8’, please say so. I’m not daft enough to then go ask others the same question until I get the answe I want. I really have no knowledge of pumps, friction loss etc. If it’s possible with a slightly more expensive pump, then I’d like to know. My limitation is the power we can provide from our solar panels. It’s 1kw/day and we run freezer, fridge etc., so we have some leeway in power consumption. 120-150w should be doable. If not, I’ll extend the pipe on the floor as it is currently and buy the next size pump up of the type I have.

 

[Cueva aran-riodh]

Best that can be said is that the Amazon-listed pump may work.

If you think it’s really not possible/good idea to try lift the water 8’, please say so. I’m not daft enough to then go ask others the same question until I get the answe I want. I really have no knowledge of pumps, friction loss etc. If it’s possible with a slightly more expensive pump, then I’d like to know. My limitation is the power we can provide from our solar panels. It’s 1kw/day and we run freezer, fridge etc., so we have some leeway in power consumption. 120-150w should be doable. If not, I’ll extend the pipe on the floor as it is currently and buy the next size pump up of the type I have.

 

[1poolman1]

If you think it’s really not possible/good idea to try lift the water 8’, please say so. I’m not daft enough to then go ask others the same question until I get the answe I want. I really have no knowledge of pumps, friction loss etc. If it’s possible with a slightly more expensive pump, then I’d like to know. My limitation is the power we can provide from our solar panels. It’s 1kw/day and we run freezer, fridge etc., so we have some leeway in power consumption. 120-150w should be doable. If not, I’ll extend the pipe on the floor as it is currently and buy the next size pump up of the type I have.

It should be relatively easy, working with that tubing, to place it on the higher platform, get the pump and try it. If it doesn't work well, place the tubing back on the ground. The big issue is the power consumption. The pump is rated at 3.8 amps (437W) per hour.
To get down to the amount of power you have available, you may want something like this, but it likely won't have the ability to push water up to the height you ask and the longevity of the pump may be an issue :

https://www.amazon.com/Intex-Krystal-Cartridge-Filter-110-120V/dp/B005QIYMNM/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.RUo3Ay4RkQvm4Ir7NAXEyqmaMJSj3MtM0gq7ay4VWBmR8IWTEN9wBIBQnEWu1s5hyTp2qY8N-SRqPVQnpsZlCHFzbuSBBZwwcX7uz8bmHFHFhZy08PQahWip1eeOq0bthcF-ORCh9eAUcKkQwNfvUzmHaUtgMGuaHUMHXAblu6fqMcQut9CK603Tb4JuAM19NYNCieqqVsEyXX-earWOVzfoK5PPkPq7_D8hMIxQV4M.B29XM8sb6zIHcEL2lU70f_BoE7suHZRar43TlNgDetk&dib_tag=se&keywords=pool%2Bpump&qid=1716231019&sr=8-3&th=1