Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - Short vacation pH and FC question

[Schwimmbad]

It's been a while since I posted, largely delayed due to rotator cuff surgery and initial recovery, here is a long overdue update.

Still holding for plaster until the backyard hardscape/landscape is complete. The hardscape contractor mobilized on 12-7 so we are one month into the progress. I just updated my youtube channel with a hardscape video timelapse. Hardscape contractor mobilized on Dec 7th and they are a little more than halfway done.

Check it out if you're curious how the backyard work progresses.

Backyard should be done by the end of January and plaster is being planned for February 26th.

My current to-do list is below, missing anything?

1. Paint back of feature wall and equipment screening walls
2. Install gates on equipment screening wall and punch list items for fence
3. Install auto close on our 0XX0 sliders and flip door handle and deadbolt on patio door (confirmed that with latch location bedroom windows don't need stops)
4. Clean up mortar below waterline tile and apply waterproofing immediately below waterline tile to cover mortar
5. Bond fire bowls to pool bond wire
6. Call for final pool inspection
7. Start research to get familiar with startup and ongoing chemical maintenance. Write out startup plan and ongoing maintenance schedule/plan (I have the mfg plaster start-up document). My reading list includes Pool Care Basics Archives, Just Filled Your Pool with Water? Here's What To Do Next - Further Reading, , Start-up New Plaster, any other key resources?
8. Order TFP Pro test kit and test fill water
9. Order attachments for my protuff pole (I figured I better spend the money on a lifetime pole now, it doesn't feel like much with all the $$ that are flying out of our bank right now)
10. Get Intellicenter up and running on the network and update software/firmware (whatever is needed)
11. Get pool chemicals (liquid chlorine, muriatic acid, CYA, salt, etc)
12. Plaster
13. Order robot, any recommendations? (this is a whole other area to get lost in doing research)
14. Related by not needed for the pool at this time includes two remaining gas inspections and replace gas meter.

By the way, rotator cuff surgery went well and I'm on the long road to recovery (now 7 weeks from surgery). Turns out it was a full supraspinatus tear, required 4 anchors in the humerus, not humorous (my bad attempt at a joke). Recovery has been going ok and I'm seeing regular small progress. Glad I got it done but it takes a lot of commitment to do the PT.

after your build is complete I would appreciate any feedback you have on specific contractors used, and whether you'd recommend or not.

It's been a while, are you still interested in feedback? DM me if so. I have a large contractor list that I did some research on that I would be happy to share as well.

 

[kimkats]

My hubby had RC surgery. He said it was one of the hardest he had to PT. He has both knees and one ankle replacement so knows about PT. Do the PT and it will pay off in the end!!

I have a link for you for the storage of your chemicals. Might as well go ahead and get that all set up as it is not too much longer before you will need it!
Storage of All Pool Chemicals

 

[Newdude]

any other key resources

Written for dummies, by the Big Kahuna Idiot himself.

Order attachments for my protuff pole (I figured I better spend the money on a lifetime pole now

Got the pole/brush/net for Christmas and I really like the locking mechanism. 10 years ago when my builder special cheapo pole snapped, I went there and told them to order me the beefy one that their service guys used and it was $100. I thought $164 or whatever the protuff was on sale for was entirely fair all this time later.

required 4 anchors in the humerus, not humorous

Can confirm was not humorous. Not One. Bit.

I probably picked up 1 or 2mm of movement a day. It seemed like nothing day to day but at the end of the week it was a half inch. Woohoo.

Order robot, any recommendations?

This seems to be the current Winner. To be entirely clear and fair, it's only the winner because it hasn't had time to fail and/or underperform like all the others.

But if I came off the robot fence today, which I still haven't seen enough evidence to do, that's what I'd get.

 

[Schwimmbad]

My hubby had RC surgery. He said it was one of the hardest he had to PT. He has both knees and one ankle replacement so knows about PT. Do the PT and it will pay off in the end!!

I have a link for you for the storage of your chemicals. Might as well go ahead and get that all set up as it is not too much longer before you will need it!
Storage of All Pool Chemicals

Haven't had any PT before this, but I will say it is horrible. I have been very focused on doing everything the Tech says. I am determined to get this behind me and back to golfing, pickleball, and of course swimming!

Thanks @kimkats for the link with the pool chemical storage info. I came across that one quite a while ago and forgot about it.

Hey @Newdude I appreciate that link to your "So you are new to testing" writeup. Perfect resource for someone like me. I copied that into my prep, startup, maintenance document. Based on my quick skim I think I can handle it and proceeded to order the TF-PRO SALT. Looking forward to getting it and testing my fill water. I think even those of us who have the ID 10 T gene flaw can figure it out.

Rotator cuff recovery progress has been slow and steady. I am noticing my range of motion continues to improve as time goes on. Stretches that hurt like HE LL which I could hardly do without tearing up I can do with just a little discomfort after about a week. Glad I got the Costco brand Tylenol in the jumbo package. That has been one of my best purchases.

I'll add the EVO to the research list. Wifey wanted in-floor. After reading a lot of the debate on this form I decided against that. She doesn't want the pressure/suction thing in the pool continuously with the hose so I said I'd try the robot out of the gate and see how that goes.

 

[pcollins22]

Keep up the hard work at PT!

Glad to hear i am not the only one torn on the IFCS. My wife also wants it - because she "hates the vacuum line in there all the time" - but I don't want the upfront cost of risk of future issues with IFCS. I just also wonder if I feel like carrying a robot in and out.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Expansion joint question here for those in the know in the Phoenix area.

I have read quite a bit on this forum and elsewhere about the need for expansion joints to allow for the pool to move independently from the decking. When I talk to my hardscape company they say they haven't installed an expansion joint with travertine decking and don't feel it's necessary. They go on to say they haven't had anyone bring up an issue related to expansion differences between a pool and travertine decking. I'm not quite comfortable to go without expansion joints.

While in the Phoenix area we don't get a hard freeze we do have significant variances in temperature. I was curious about the range of soil temperature over the course of a year (came across this site, check it out) and found out the 10 year daily average ranges from mid 40's to over 100 degrees F. Last year the low average soil temperature was 45 degrees F and the peak was 112 degrees (hard to believe the soil temperature was that high, makes me question the validity of the data).

Anyway, here are the particulars for my situation (reference below):
I have a 12" wide travertine coping that is installed on top of the bond beam (I think they used thinset). They used grout between the coping pieces. The decking is travertine which has the perimeter pieces and all the borders set in a bed of cement. Polymeric sand will be used to fill in-between the travertine. Between the coping and the perimeter of the decking the travertine is on a bed of 1/4 minus and sand.

There are three areas I am wondering if expansion joints should be installed. I drew possible expansion joints in thick red lines. It seems the rest of the travertine can move without much of an issue (other than possibly pushing the cement bed for the perimeter).

1. The upper left of the diagram (approx 15' x 15 area) is a fire pit constructed of CMU set in cement that also has an 18" tall wall on the left and back of the area made of CMU set in cement. I am concerned about expansion between the coping and the fire pit and/or the wall.
2. The upper right of the diagram (12'x10' area) is an elevated sitting area that is made using CMU set in cement for the perimeter and compacted soil in the center, than 1/4 minus, than sand, with travertine on top. I view that area as a location that won't budge which could be an issue.
3. The lower right of the diagram (15'x16' area) is an outdoor kitchen and pergola. The kitchen area on the right is built with CMU. There is a gap between the travertine pad and the home foundation, but the perimeter of the travertine is set in a concrete bed.

What do the experienced folks here think?

I'm attaching a few pictures of those areas to help with the visualization.

 

[ajw22]

Does the cement bed the travertine is placed on reach to the edge of the pool?

What is the separation between the cement bed and the pool structure?

The expansion joint is an insurance policy against bond beam cracking. We have seen tightly laid pavers that crack pools. It is impossible to predict how things will shift and where the expansion joint is needed.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Does the cement bed the travertine is placed on reach to the edge of the pool?

No. The cement bed is only on the perimeter of the travertine and it’s only 6” or so wide.

 

[ajw22]

If you are doing an expansion joint it should be between the coping sitting on the pool structure and the deck as indicated by the red lines.

 

[mbdesa]

Expansion joint question here for those in the know in the Phoenix area.

I have read quite a bit on this forum and elsewhere about the need for expansion joints to allow for the pool to move independently from the decking. When I talk to my hardscape company they say they haven't installed an expansion joint with travertine decking and don't feel it's necessary. They go on to say they haven't had anyone bring up an issue related to expansion differences between a pool and travertine decking. I'm not quite comfortable to go without expansion joints.

While in the Phoenix area we don't get a hard freeze we do have significant variances in temperature. I was curious about the range of soil temperature over the course of a year (came across this site, check it out) and found out the 10 year daily average ranges from mid 40's to over 100 degrees F. Last year the low average soil temperature was 45 degrees F and the peak was 112 degrees (hard to believe the soil temperature was that high, makes me question the validity of the data).

Anyway, here are the particulars for my situation (reference below):
I have a 12" wide travertine coping that is installed on top of the bond beam (I think they used thinset). They used grout between the coping pieces. The decking is travertine which has the perimeter pieces and all the borders set in a bed of cement. Polymeric sand will be used to fill in-between the travertine. Between the coping and the perimeter of the decking the travertine is on a bed of 1/4 minus and sand.
View attachment 549998
There are three areas I am wondering if expansion joints should be installed. I drew possible expansion joints in thick red lines. It seems the rest of the travertine can move without much of an issue (other than possibly pushing the cement bed for the perimeter).

1. The upper left of the diagram (approx 15' x 15 area) is a fire pit constructed of CMU set in cement that also has an 18" tall wall on the left and back of the area made of CMU set in cement. I am concerned about expansion between the coping and the fire pit and/or the wall.
2. The upper right of the diagram (12'x10' area) is an elevated sitting area that is made using CMU set in cement for the perimeter and compacted soil in the center, than 1/4 minus, than sand, with travertine on top. I view that area as a location that won't budge which could be an issue.
3. The lower right of the diagram (15'x16' area) is an outdoor kitchen and pergola. The kitchen area on the right is built with CMU. There is a gap between the travertine pad and the home foundation, but the perimeter of the travertine is set in a concrete bed.

What do the experienced folks here think?

I'm attaching a few pictures of those areas to help with the visualization.View attachment 550011View attachment 550012View attachment 550013View attachment 550015

I would probably consider doing Deck Drains in those areas, especially on the area to the left of the pool. Otherwise, water is going to pool by the pony wall around your fire pit. There is nowhere for the water to go during a monsoon, currently. Is there any slope in the travertine to direct water?

 

[Schwimmbad]

Slope is pretty good all around the pool, I checked it with my 4’ level. It runs from the pool as the high point away from it on all sides. I don’t think it will collect in the fire pit area. The slope runs from pool to the left and from the back corner of the pony wall it runs to the front.

 

[Schwimmbad]

If you can remove all the extra under the tiles so the plaster will be the proper thickness at this joint.

Finally got around to doing this. Thanks for the catch @AQUA~HOLICS . The eye's on this forum have such an attention to detail and notice stuff I would not have thought about.

Are you planning on applying basecrete to the entire pool shell before Plaster? If not, you might consider at least slathering on a layer of it (or some other waterproofing that odd compatible with plaster) on the bottom side of the tile and mortar bed where it will meet the plaster.

I will be putting a coat of basecrete covering the bottom of the tile/mortar joint. As I was cleaning off the mortar below the tile I noticed a number of cracks in the base of the pool. It has been nearly four months since shotcrete and as a reminder, I watered it regularly for the first 7 to 8 days. My guess is it's a big nothing burger, but I was thinking of applying the basecrete over those cracks. I've got plenty and don't think I'll ever use the rest of it so why not? See pictures below with a business card stuck in some of the cracks to help make them easier to see. Any comments?

 

[bdavis466]

Those are shrinkage cracks and shouldn't be of concern. Its actually beneficial that your pool has sat this long prior to plaster.

BaseCrete in the cracks certainly won't hurt but I still say to coat the the whole thing...especially since you already have a bunch.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Those are shrinkage cracks and shouldn't be of concern. Its actually beneficial that your pool has sat this long prior to plaster.

BaseCrete in the cracks certainly won't hurt but I still say to coat the the whole thing...especially since you already have a bunch.

Thanks @bdavis466, while I figured the cracks aren't anything to worry about, I appreciate the reassurance.

I'll use all the basecrete I have left, which is about 50% of one kit, so according to their literature it should cover about 200 sqft. I think I'll use it all on the pool in the order below, thoughts?

1. Below the waterline tile
2. Shrinkage cracks
3. Plumbing and light penetrations (is this a good idea or not)
4. ?

 

[Schwimmbad]

What is the separation between the cement bed and the pool structure?

I just realized I didn't respond to the rest of your question. The closest the inside edge of cement border bed is from the pool structure/bond beam is 1' (back side of pool), a lot it is 3'6" and the furthest is like 8'. This excludes the more permanent items like the firepit/pony wall, the elevated sitting area, and the little connection to the kitchen area.

The expansion joint is an insurance policy against bond beam cracking.

I'm glad you pointed that out, I always thought the expansion joint was more to protect the decking instead of the pool bond beam. I guess to your point it all depends on the myriad of factors in the situation. What is installed, what abuts the items, the weather environment, as to what weak link will give and how that will show up.

 

[bdavis466]

Thanks @bdavis466, while I figured the cracks aren't anything to worry about, I appreciate the reassurance.

I'll use all the basecrete I have left, which is about 50% of one kit, so according to their literature it should cover about 200 sqft. I think I'll use it all on the pool in the order below, thoughts?

1. Below the waterline tile
2. Shrinkage cracks
3. Plumbing and light penetrations (is this a good idea or not)
4. ?

I would do #3 before #2.

Those cracks are no problem

 

[Schwimmbad]

Well the backyard is now finished (except for some fence punch list items) and I've decided to hold off on plaster until sometime in March for various reasons, but mostly because it will be too cold to use until May.

Anyway, until I get some time to take some good backyard pictures, I took a short video of the fire bowls in action.

I have to say I love them!

 

[Newdude]

I could TOTALLY sit between the fire bowls while plotting to take over the world.

WELL done !!!

 

[Schwimmbad]

I could TOTALLY sit between the fire bowls while plotting to take over the world.

WELL done !!!

Now there is an idea! I'll have to investigate building a nice platform and throne!

 

[kimkats]

That is a work of art right there! Well done!