Sundance, Bullfrog, Calspa experiences? First time buyer seeking advice

[BravoRomeo]

We’ve had our Bullfrog A6L for several years now. It has been a solid tub. I like that it uses standard off the shelf parts and a non-wood frame and floor. We even added the WiFi module ourselves.

Love the JetPack concept. You can really tailor the tub to your preferences or even buy an extra pack to change things up now and then. The packs do make for an extra step in wiping down the shell behind them, but I find that minor. No issues with the JetPack retaining clips. They seem reasonably beefy, but if one fails they are glued into the shell, at least on our model.

Like @phonedave, our headrest retainer clips have been breaking. You can order replacements; they just snap into the headrests. We 3D printed our own clips out of polycarbonate, which should last longer. The design is available freely on Thingiverse.

The extra circulation pump is nice, but I prefer the silent 24/7 circ pump my old Hot Springs tub had. The EOS Ozonator is a decent design with is separate mixing tank and carbon filter, but I’d skip it as it’s really not necessary and just another thing to fail.

I didn’t have good results with the Frog @ease chlorine cartridge system, as after the first six weeks it invariably ended up being more work than just manual dosing with the TFP recommended dichlor/bleach method. That said it would be better than neglect so may still be ok for some folks.

Good luck!

 

[wrysys]

We have around 100 Bullfrog spas on our books. By far the most popular spa in Southern utah. Most of ours are X series, and STIL models. A few A, R and the new M series. I hate the M series. We love the rest of them. Though I find the models withe spa packs to be a pain to clean because you've got the spaces behind the packs to tend to as well. Otherwise we see them as rock solid.

My biggest gripe with Sundance/Jacuzzi are the flow switches. We see frequent failures, and the Jacuzzi models spam the owners with nuisance flow error notifications. However, it's a numbers thing for us an they are in STRs and even tiny problems are expensive when it shuts the spa down. Dealer in town is amazing and I agree about their warranty.

RDs recommendation of DimensionOne is interesting. We have one of their units and I didn't like it. *@*Home Breeze. But it had a lot to do with their dealer. They also deal Strong Spas and they have some funky skimmer designs. Both had wooden cabinets and we admittedly lumped them together as bargain brands. Sounds like I need to give Dimension another shot.

I would absolutely agree on the reference to dealers. Shop your dealers first.

We primarily do service, less repair. So RDs advice will be more tuned into your pocketbook as far as C/O ownership.

Stopped by a dealer last week who is no longer carrying D1 because of severe quality problems. He said they recently moved manufacturing, not sure if he said Mexico. Since then he's seen many more horrible failures/service issues, such that he is no longer going to offer them anymore.

Does Bullfrog have a decent service record? And what's the difference in build quality between A and R series? R looked similar, though the dealer didn't have any in the showroom. The whole jetpack idea was not a big appeal to us as we are mostly interested in soaking.

I respect that Bullfrog is still trying to stay in Utah, avoiding the overseas/cheaper manufacturing costs, at least for now. I noticed they have factory stores in Nevada/Utah. Curious as to the price difference

 

[bradgray]

Stopped by a dealer last week who is no longer carrying D1 because of severe quality problems. He said they recently moved manufacturing, not sure if he said Mexico. Since then he's seen many more horrible failures/service issues, such that he is no longer going to offer them anymore.

Interesting. The Breeze we have has worked happily. I just really didn't like the cabinet design or the shell curves. If the chassis is wood, I instantly judge it. Probably unfair, but historically it's hinted at longevity.

Does Bullfrog have a decent service record? And what's the difference in build quality between A and R series? R looked similar, though the dealer didn't have any in the showroom. The whole jetpack idea was not a big appeal to us as we are mostly interested in soaking.

In our case, yes. We have a small handful of BFs from 2007 still running exceptionally well only needing minor repairs on the bleeder lines. Other spas we've service that are that old, do not look nearly as good and have had leaks in frustrating places. Also Balboa parts are easy to find and economical. The newer Bullfrogs use Gecko equipment, and while I like the packs, they are not quite as ubiquitous as Balboa. But give it another 5 years and that'll change.

As far as model differences, this is where BF seperates itself. The X-Series are not a lesser quality spa. It's the same fully-composite frame, the same panels, the same brand equipment; the difference is in the features. Lights, audio, # of pumps and the jetpaks. Topside controller will be a little less intelligent but this is usually unimportant for someone who just wants a spa to soak in.

If you buy the "entry" model of other brands, in our experience they tend to be a fairly different in design with noticeable manufacturing trade-offs in the build quality. We see totally different equipment in some of these and it's almost like it's a different manufacturer entirely, even though it's just a "model" shift.

We have a wide scope of brands on our routes, and we don't hate any of them really except for the bigbox store versions and 110/120v plug-ins. And the BF M-Series; their new skimmer and filter design makes my head hurt.

BF has been the king in our area and we simply haven't had a reason to contest it. If I were to nitpick, I would agree with RD. The pumps and mounting locations on the older BFs pumps were awful to access. I broke several bolts in rage because I couldn't get them loose from the ridiculous angles available in the feild. However the 2019+ brackets have a "slip" anchor sort of like a 5th-wheel receiver. It's frankly brilliant and makes replacement easy.

 

[wrysys]

Appreciate the info. I had a nice stay in St. George on the way hiking Bryce. Hope to go back soon.

 

[RDspaguy]

RDs recommendation of DimensionOne is interesting.

Bear in mind, everything I see is older. D1 may have changed alot in the last decade. They certainly changed alot early on to become one of my top picks. Old D1s were known for paper-thin tupperware shells, as the sheet material thins as it is sucked into the form, and a small rock, kids toy, or high-heel shoe (don't ask) will go right through the footwell if stepped on. Then there was the year of the shrinking foam (95-96, not limited to D1) where jets would get pulled out of the spa wall by the foam. And don't get me started on air pump rebuild kits, sequencer solenoids, and diffuser bulb hose leaks. But they improved their designs and ended up a long lasting, nearly indestructable tub. I've run D1s with no frame left on them and you couldn't tell, the foam supports the whole tub. I've got a 20 or so year old one on its side waiting for it's turn. Bottom frame is dirt, but the cabinet and shell look great. Going to need a ridiculously expensive topside, and a light gasket if I know my D1s, but should bring in about $5k even needing a new cover.

flow switches. We see frequent failures

True, but how often do you see a heater dry-fire in one? Flow switches are cheap, easy to replace, and practically self-diagnosing. The heaters could be less $$$, even the plastic housing elements, but their failure rate compared to balboa is night and day in my experience.

the Jacuzzi models

Jacuzzi bought Sundance for their controls mainly, and immediately began making Jacuzzi tubs with Sundance guts. The control pack literally said "Sundance", they didn't even put a sticker on it. Unfortunately, they used their own Crud in half of them. Not a big fan of the Jacuzzi boards, but it at least has a separate, easily testable transformer.
But, again, I don't see the new ones.

for STRs

?

also don't care for the spun/poly and progressive filters.

I've seen a few of these but am not familiar enough to have an opinion.

They also deal Strong Spas

Wrong spas, you mean? Sorry, inside joke. They make a decent tub in my experience, but they do like to mix things up a bit. 2.5" flex over 2" pipe for a barb into 2" fittings and pump? Really? Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, stocks 2.5" flex, so repairs get done in 2" anyway. Not enough head from 5ft of flex for the extra half-inch to matter given that everything else is 2" anyway.

no longer carrying D1 because of severe quality problems. He said they recently moved manufacturing

Good to know.

Probably unfair, but historically it's hinted at longevity.

Historically they were all wood (you're making me feel old) and one of the advantages of full-foam tubs was that the wood could rot away and not damage the tub or be a problem until you tried to move it. As for longevity, in my experience that goes to Hot Springs. That's almost the only good thing I'll say about them, but their tubs do last forever with decent maintenance and the occassional repair.

The newer Bullfrogs use Gecko equipment, and while I like the packs, they are not quite as ubiquitous as Balboa. But give it another 5 years and that'll change.

Not a gecko fan, but haven't seen any new stuff.

almost like it's a different manufacturer entirely,

Not "almost".

their new skimmer and filter design makes my head hurt.

Yep, there are alot of "improvements" that don't improve anything, huh?

agree with RD. The mounting locations on the older BFs pumps were awful.

I was referring to the clips epoxied to the shell that held the jetpacks at the top. They used to be notorious for breaking and very problematic to replace, sometimes resulting in shell damage, as the epoxy bond was stronger than the fiberglass bond to the acrylic. I heard a rumor that they "improved" the design, but...
The only good place to mount pumps is outside the spa, and that's not a good place to put the pumps.

 

[phonedave]

thanks for the info. Local dealer is selling A6 for 18.5! The price gives me pause -- but I guess that's the "made in USA" price. Also, we will have the tub near the bedroom, do you think no circ pump would be too noisy? We glanced at the the sundance prado 680 which is very basic, 110v, 1 pump. Not sure if that is too basic and may compromise build quality. But on the other hand, we are not really interested in multiple jets, just a soaker, so not sure if the 780 series with 2 pumps, circ pump, is needed.

I looked for used models but couldn't find any recent decent brand models.

My A6 - Ozone, Second Jet Pump, and a better cover lifter was in the $13 - $14K range. Prices have really gone up. That was about 2 - 2.5 years ago We paid in full and then waited FOREVER to get our tub so the date we paid vs. the date we got it are way off. That is what happens when you order during the height of both Covid and a resin shortage.

I do not have a dedicated circulation pump, but even the regular jet pump on low is pretty quiet. I don't think it would be too noisy myself, but I also live on a fairly busy street and sleep with the window open.

The ozone I am neither here nor there on. BF does have a nice setup, but how effective it is, that is an other questions.

I have the second jet pump, which for me I highly recommend (I like jets that pummel you into submission) but if you are just a soaker, then not so much.

I have the upgraded audio system, which it got for free as a promo. It does work really well - you can actually hear it in the tub with the jets on, without also blasting it across the back yard. For some reason, BF does not extend the Aux input to the outside of the tub, just the UBS. But it is active inside the tub. A drill, a long phone cable, and 5 minutes time rectifies that easily (I did it so I can plug in an Alexa)

I have a Vanish XL lifter, which if you are looking for a gas strut assisted lifter that drops the cover to almost below the lip of the tub, I very much recommend. If you have no reason to drop the cover that low, then there are cheaper options.

 

[bradgray]

Bear in mind, everything I see is older. D1 may have changed alot in the last decade. They certainly changed alot early on to become one of my top picks. Old D1s were known for paper-thin tupperware shells, as the sheet material thins as it is sucked into the form, and a small rock, kids toy, or high-heel shoe (don't ask) will go right through the footwell if stepped on. Then there was the year of the shrinking foam (95-96, not limited to D1) where jets would get pulled out of the spa wall by the foam. And don't get me started on air pump rebuild kits, sequencer solenoids, and diffuser bulb hose leaks. But they improved their designs and ended up a long lasting, nearly indestructable tub. I've run D1s with no frame left on them and you couldn't tell, the foam supports the whole tub. I've got a 20 or so year old one on its side waiting for it's turn. Bottom frame is dirt, but the cabinet and shell look great. Going to need a ridiculously expensive topside, and a light gasket if I know my D1s, but should bring in about $5k even needing a new cover.

Nice! Maybe we'll see this prove true on the one this client has!

True, but how often do you see a heater dry-fire in one? Flow switches are cheap, easy to replace, and practically self-diagnosing. The heaters could be less $$$, even the plastic housing elements, but their failure rate compared to balboa is night and day in my experience.

This is true. It's just that in our case the opportunity costs stack higher than replacement costs in almost all cases. They'd rather replace the element twice a year than have a single $5,000 reservation ask for a 10% discount because the spa didn't work for 5 hours.

Jacuzzi bought Sundance for their controls mainly, and immediately began making Jacuzzi tubs with Sundance guts. The control pack literally said "Sundance", they didn't even put a sticker on it. Unfortunately, they used their own Crud in half of them. Not a big fan of the Jacuzzi boards, but it at least has a separate, easily testable transformer. But, again, I don't see the new ones.

Funny enough, we've had to have a transformer replaced on a J200 series. It was cool to see that it was independent from the board.

?

STR is short for Short Term Rental. We used to use VR for Vacation Rental but VR now also refers to most Gen-Zs timewaster-of-choice.

I've seen a few of these but am not familiar enough to have an opinion.

To be fair, they just work too well. You quickly run into flow issues if you can't control the behavior of the user. Otherwise, it's fine.

Wrong spas, you mean? Sorry, inside joke. They make a decent tub in my experience, but they do like to mix things up a bit. 2.5" flex over 2" pipe for a barb into 2" fittings and pump? Really? Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, stocks 2.5" flex, so repairs get done in 2" anyway. Not enough head from 5ft of flex for the extra half-inch to matter given that everything else is 2" anyway.

We've had Venturi's break on two of these in the last couple weeks actually, and drain the tubs. We've hope it's a fluke. The issue is also that Costco sells them, along with a local dealer, and they both appear to be the same quality with very different price tags!

Historically they were all wood (you're making me feel old) and one of the advantages of full-foam tubs was that the wood could rot away and not damage the tub or be a problem until you tried to move it. As for longevity, in my experience that goes to Hot Springs. That's almost the only good thing I'll say about them, but their tubs do last forever with decent maintenance and the occassional repair.

For sure - it just seems to be more common these days on the lower-end spas. So it's a bit of an unfair cohort, I'll give you that.

Not a gecko fan, but haven't seen any new stuff.

The capacitive displays fail at about 3 years and are $500 to replace. Thankfully these are all on higher end models with 5 year warranties.

Not "almost".

Yep, there are alot of "improvements" that don't improve anything, huh?

It's awful. There is no basket/weir gate to speak of. And the filter is literally a folded piece of origami with NO spine or frame shoved behind the spa pack. It cannot be cleaned AT ALL. Must be replaced every couple months or else water suffers immediately.

I was referring to the clips epoxied to the shell that held the jetpacks at the top. They used to be notorious for breaking and very problematic to replace, sometimes resulting in shell damage, as the epoxy bond was stronger than the fiberglass bond to the acrylic. I heard a rumor that they "improved" the design, but...

We've thankfully never had a bracket pull off. I can see how that would be frustrating; we have had a few clip posts in the skimmer bay snap off from idiots nice people sitting on the bay cover. We also replace the pillow C-clips constantly because guests children can't keep their hands off of them. "Snap on.. snap off... snap on... snap off...".

 

[RDspaguy]

They'd rather replace the element twice a year than have a single $5,000 reservation ask for a 10% discount because the spa didn't work for 5 hours.

Makes sense.

It was cool to see that it was independent from the board.

Yeah, I've yet to meet a board repair guy that will replace a transformer. Want to know how to make that board bulletproof?

you can't control the behavior of the user

As if you ever can.

The issue is also that Costco sells them, along with a local dealer, and they both appear to be the same quality with very different price tags!

Yeah, that's a big issue for the dealer. Especially if there are plenty of independent repair guys around to work on the costco variety. It's tough to compete against a box store profit margin and buying power as a small business.

it just seems to be more common these days

As I understand it, they stopped using arsenic in wood treatment which led to a period of poorly preserved wood causing many manufacturers to start using other materials. I'm not sure if that has been improved at present, but it is definitely a problem you see alot these days.
Design and installation are a huge factor too. There is no problem with the wood if it stays dry, so designs that utilize pvc bottom pans with wood vertical supports are not going to have issues in spite of being a "wood frame". Just as a spa on an uneven, non-sloping pad with leaves piled against one side is going to rot alot faster than one on a covered wood deck.

Thankfully these are all on higher end models with 5 year warranties.

So it won't bite the owner the first time, but every 3 years after? Sounds about right.

be replaced every couple months or else water suffers immediately.

Disposable is the way of the modern world my friend. Gotta keep you buying something.

never had a bracket pull off.

You're missing the point. If they pulled off it would not be a problem. The old clips were a hairpin shaped piece of plastic, about an inch wide and maybe 1/4" thick, and they would break at the bend, leaving the half epoxied to the shell nearly impossible to remove, and it had to be removed to put on a new one. I tried prying it off once and ended up with a hand-sized piece of acrylic cracking out. Couldn't chisel it, nip it with tile nippers, heat it to break the bond, nothing. Dremel tool with a sading drum and hours of tedious, meticulous grinding to replace a part that you could literally break by hand.
The fact that you don't know what I'm talking about says that they improved the design.

 

[wrysys]

My A6 - Ozone, Second Jet Pump, and a better cover lifter was in the $13 - $14K range. Prices have really gone up. That was about 2 - 2.5 years ago We paid in full and then waited FOREVER to get our tub so the date we paid vs. the date we got it are way off. That is what happens when you order during the height of both Covid and a resin shortage.

Got a quote for an R7 , 16K. And he said the R is being discontinued so it's for a 2022 model. Not sure why, maybe Bullfrog is trying to go more upscale. The Sundance 780 Montclair is 14.5. I like the R7 minimalism and your experience helped confirm. No circ pump, no ozonator. Maybe that's why they're dropping it. But not sure which to get.

 

[bradgray]

Yeah, I've yet to meet a board repair guy that will replace a transformer.

Could've swore the dealer only replaced the transformer.

Want to know how to make that board bulletproof?

Sure?

Yeah, that's a big issue for the dealer. Especially if there are plenty of independent repair guys around to work on the costco variety. It's tough to compete against a box store profit margin and buying power as a small business.

The joke of it all is that we have to have the Owner issue the warranty ticket with Costco who then posts a ticket for their local contractors to pick up within 10 days. Meanwhile we know exactly who it goes to, and yet can't do a thing about that to expedite it. In a rental, this is painfully expensive downtime.

There is no problem with the wood if it stays dry,

Challenge is it hardly does, even in our dry desert. Landscape irrigation and/or poor drainage by contractors cause these to sit in puddles on their slabs.

so designs that utilize pvc bottom pans with wood vertical supports are not going to have issues in spite of being a "wood frame".

Definitely. And hybrids like the Passion spas fair much better because of this. It's a decent compromise.

So it won't bite the owner the first time, but every 3 years after? Sounds about right.

Guess we'll see. The displays that have failed are on the STIL models, which are the Euro modern design. It's unbelievably shortsighted - the capacitive touchscreen is flush with the horizontal surface of the spa rim, so it makes contact with the wet cover. Putting a capacitive screen anywhere near water is just poor planning. The constant false-touching causes the screens to overheat and stall. Or end up turning jets off and on perpetually. Or turning the display to German and then locking you out.

Disposable is the way of the modern world my friend. Gotta keep you buying something.

Ditto with pillows. They don't make it 6 months anymore. Used to go years.

The fact that you don't know what I'm talking about says that they improved the design.

I've never had one fail, but I do know the retainer/bracket you're reffering to. I don't think the design has changed because that's how i would describe the backend inside the cabinet. The two horizontal posts above the jet pack also break quickly when guests sit on them, and it leaves a nice chunk of plastic embedded in the shell.

 

[bradgray]

Got a quote for an R7 , 16K. And he said the R is being discontinued so it's for a 2022 model. Not sure why, maybe Bullfrog is trying to go more upscale. The Sundance 780 Montclair is 14.5. I like the R7 minimalism and your experience helped confirm. No circ pump, no ozonator. Maybe that's why they're dropping it. But not sure which to get.

Is there a reason you haven't looked at the X-Series? They run around $10k in our area and they seem to be a good fit for what you're after.

Don't bother with the Ozone. It'll fail in a year and it's not warrantied. Even if it did help (which IMHO is like a fart in a windstorm) it's guaranteed to need repair or be abandoned in short order.

Circ pump is nice if you like still water on occasion ane don't want to have to have jets going to keep the spa hot. Otherwise, the low speed on the Aquaflo pumps is tolerable.

 

[RDspaguy]

Don't bother with the Ozone.

If it's not on a circulation pump, I agree. It's also potentially problematic on a rental, but for a private spa I highly recommend it if on a 24/7 circulation system. In fact, I won't keep a tub without it for my own use. I have explained it's use in numerous posts here, so I suggest the OP read up on it a little before making that decision.