Pool equipment redo

[pagreenpool]

I am looking to re do my pool equipment. I have a roughly 25k vinyl liner in ground pool. Chlorine but looking to convert to salt water during this process. I already have the Hayward W3AQR15 unit for the salt water generator.

First thing I am going to do is repour the pad (its not level). Looking at the pictures of my equipment, the salt water generator will take the place of my inline chlorinator I believe. The owners manual for the SWG says it should go after all pool equipment (heaters, filter, etc). Does it look like the SWG equipment will fit in the space available where the current chlorinator is? Or should I add some room to the pad in this direction?

I also need a new pump. Current pump is 1.5 hp. Should I just replace it with the same?

As far as the height of the pad goes... right now my pump has to be raised a bit. Is that normal? When I redo the inlet valves, doesn't that drive the height for the pump? Should I try to have the pump sit on the concrete when I redo this or should I set it a little higher and just use something under the pump to level it? Would that help for a down the road pump replacement? Perhaps I shouldn't even mess with the input valves?

This is a DE filter. If you were re doing this setup, would you keep it?

Hope to get some tips from some more experienced people.

 

[1poolman1]

First option - get a VSP. Second - most SWG cells are about 14" and require a straight pipe of about 10" in front of them. And, yes, get rid of that tab feeder. Third - you would enjoy a large cartridge filter to go along with a VSP.

Keeping the height of the filter pump as close to the water height as you can is best practice. Pump height determines valve height if possible to keep the inlet pipe straight. Most pump instructions ask for 5X the inside diameter of the pipe, about 10" for your plumbing, in front of the pump. Not always done and a VSP doesn't seem to care. I don't have it on mine (no room) with no issues.

 

[pagreenpool]

First option - get a VSP. Second - most SWG cells are about 14" and require a straight pipe of about 10" in front of them. And, yes, get rid of that tab feeder. Third - you would enjoy a large cartridge filter to go along with a VSP.

Keeping the height of the filter pump as close to the water height as you can is best practice. Pump height determines valve height if possible to keep the inlet pipe straight. Most pump instructions ask for 5X the inside diameter of the pipe, about 10" for your plumbing, in front of the pump. Not always done and a VSP doesn't seem to care. I don't have it on mine (no room) with no issues.

Thanks. I guess the VSP is a no brainer now-a-days?

Also I wasn't aware that pumps want straight in pipe leading in to it. I haven't picked out a pump yet but will see if I can get some ideas. Thinking about a black and decker 1.5hp... are they new to the pool pump world?

When you say "in front of", I am assuming you are talking about the flow of water, or upstream. So the SWG wants 10" of pipe leading up to it? Again I will consult my manual.

See a couple updated pictures with my notes.

Would you leave all the valves on the inlet and return lines or should I replace all them? They seem to be in decent condition... but I am talking about replacing all the PVC here so not sure if I should just go ahead and get all new stuff.

 

[pjt]

I guess the VSP is a no brainer now-a-days?

Yes.

If you were re doing this setup, would you keep it?

If it's still serviceable, keep it. If you're going to replace it, get the largest cartridge filter possible.

I would also recommend adding an external bypass for your heater.

 

[1poolman1]

You could look into a CircuPool SWG, they seem to be popular among many on this forum and the SJ series has a different plumbing arrangement.

Unless you like "Halloween" colors, you might look into a Blue Torrent VSP instead of Black and Decker if that is the brand you want. Blue Torrent is the manufacturer of the Black and Decker pump. Get the 3hp model and turn down the speed to get the most efficiency, even with that 1.5" plumbing.

Unless there is some problem, there does not appear to be a reason to start replacing valves and plumbing above ground as you won't change anything underground. The increase in performance you MIGHT get going to 2" would not be worth the time, labor and expense. You would want to go to 2" from the pump to the filter, filter to heater, heater to SWG and back to the return valves if you are replacing the filter, etc.

If you are pouring a new pad, it wouldn't be hard to get 10" in front of your new pump, but it is not absolutely needed, especially with a VSP. As I said earlier, my system doesn't have it on my VSP because of lack of room. Have never had an issue in many many, years. It is just what most pump manufacturers recommend.

 

[Dirk]

If you think you might ever consider adding full automation to your setup, you might want to plan for it now, even if it's not in the budget for this go-round. In order to take full advantage of what a pool automation system can control, and report to you about, you'd want the pump(s), the SWG and the controller itself to all be of the same brand, and each model to be fully compatible with each other. The brand of heater and filter are of little or no concern in this regard.

Also, consider warranty, and do some research, especially if you're considering a new filter. For example, if you buy a Pentair filter, along with two other specific types of Pentair components, all at the same time, on the same invoice, then you get the extended warranty. This bumps the warranty from as little as 60 days (depending on how you buy) up to the full 3-year warranty. That's a big deal. Additionally, many of Pentair's other products, if bought on that same invoice, will also get the three-year bump. I'm not sure if other manufacturers offer anything similar, but definitely worth a look see before you buy even one other thing.

 

[pagreenpool]

You could look into a CircuPool SWG, they seem to be popular among many on this forum and the SJ series has a different plumbing arrangement.

Unless you like "Halloween" colors, you might look into a Blue Torrent VSP instead of Black and Decker if that is the brand you want. Blue Torrent is the manufacturer of the Black and Decker pump. Get the 3hp model and turn down the speed to get the most efficiency, even with that 1.5" plumbing.

Unless there is some problem, there does not appear to be a reason to start replacing valves and plumbing above ground as you won't change anything underground. The increase in performance you MIGHT get going to 2" would not be worth the time, labor and expense. You would want to go to 2" from the pump to the filter, filter to heater, heater to SWG and back to the return valves if you are replacing the filter, etc.

If you are pouring a new pad, it wouldn't be hard to get 10" in front of your new pump, but it is not absolutely needed, especially with a VSP. As I said earlier, my system doesn't have it on my VSP because of lack of room. Have never had an issue in many many, years. It is just what most pump manufacturers recommend.

I already have the SWG, a hayward. Bought it pre-covid before prices got stupid but haven't installed it yet.

With regards to the black and decker pump, yeah I wasn't thrilled with the colors. Didn't know about the blue torrent, thanks for the tip. But it looks like they only offer a 2 year warranty on those, as opposed to I believe a 5 year warranty on the black and decker?

What is the consensus on buying a bigger pump then turning down the speed? Smart or not necessary?

Also I wasn't aware that I should use 2" between the pump and the SWG. Is that standard?

Thanks again

 

[pagreenpool]

If you think you might ever consider adding full automation to your setup, you might want to plan for it now, even if it's not in the budget for this go-round. In order to take full advantage of what a pool automation system can control, and report to you about, you'd want the pump(s), the SWG and the controller itself to all be of the same brand, and each model to be fully compatible with each other. The brand of heater and filter are of little or no concern in this regard.

Also, consider warranty, and do some research, especially if you're considering a new filter. For example, if you buy a Pentair filter, along with two other specific types of Pentair components, all at the same time, on the same invoice, then you get the extended warranty. This bumps the warranty from as little as 60 days (depending on how you buy) up to the full 3-year warranty. That's a big deal. Additionally, many of Pentair's other products, if bought on that same invoice, will also get the three-year bump. I'm not sure if other manufacturers offer anything similar, but definitely worth a look see before you buy even one other thing.

Thanks for the reply.

The automation thing is interesting for planning down the road. The SWG I am putting in is a hayward, but I was looking at other pumps because hayward is so expensive. However it's a good point. I would have to see if I can track down some literature about the hayward compatibility. Since my SWG is hayward, if I buy a hayward pump is there a pretty good chance they can be added to a controller down the road?

As far as the warranty stuff, another good point. However I already have the SWG as a hayward so the pentair warranty stuff might not apply.

 

[Dirk]

Yah, not trying to talk you out of Hayward. I'm just sharing the single biggest mistake I made when I upgraded my pad. I trusted the installer to sell me all the right things. I should have posted here, and asked questions (just as you are doing), and then done my own due diligence to determine what each component could do, and if they all worked together well. Back then, I didn't know what I didn't know! (And it was before I found this site.)

I would now spend time here, and calling manufacturers' tech support, and downloading product owner manuals and pouring over them to determine what I need. As you point out: this stuff is too expensive to make purchasing mistakes.

That all said, if you haven't installed your SWG yet, you could always sell if if you found some compelling reason to go with another brand of gear. With today's prices, you'll probably make some money on it!

 

[1poolman1]

Yah, not trying to talk you out of Hayward. I'm just sharing the single biggest mistake I made when I upgraded my pad. I trusted the installer to sell me all the right things. I should have posted here, and asked questions (just as you are doing), and then done my own due diligence to determine what each component could do, and if they all worked together well. Back then, I didn't know what I didn't know! (And it was before I found this site.)

I would now spend time here, and calling manufacturers' tech support, and downloading product owner manuals and pouring over them to determine what I need. As you point out: this stuff is too expensive to make purchasing mistakes.

That all said, if you haven't installed your SWG yet, you could always sell if if you found some compelling reason to go with another brand of gear. With today's prices, you'll probably make some money on it!

If you decide to go with Hayward automation, they will control the salt cell you have. Make sure you get one that will control at least 8 items regardless of brand. I have always liked having the SWG separate from the automation, but that is just a personal preference. If you have a stand alone system, automation can turn it on and off with a relay.

If you want to go with the B&D/Blue Torrent pump, yes, get the largest horsepower and turn it down. Or, any other brand as well. That is the most efficient way to run a VSP. There is now an automation adapter for the B&D pump available if you decide to go that route. Some on this site have used it with success.

The recommendation of a certain pipe length in front of the SWG and pump are for optimal installs. There are many, many in use that have not been installed that way and work, but if you can follow manufacturer's instructions, it is always best, especially if there is ever a warranty claim. The first thing a warranty station will tell you is, "It wasn't installed properly." The warranty on you SWG is probably over anyway.

When those SWG systems first came out, they were all retro-fits and seldom could we install them to all the recommendations without huge re-plumbing, which most customers didn't/wouldn't approve due to the increase in cost. They still work, we just did our best. Over the years builders kept making equipment pads smaller with no room for additions that didn't exist at the time.

 

[Dirk]

but if you can follow manufacturer's instructions, it is always best, especially if there is ever a warranty claim. The first thing a warranty station will tell you is, "It wasn't installed properly." The warranty on you SWG is probably over anyway.

Couldn't agree more. Some here dispute the installation instructions about the necessity of the pipe before an SWG, but I won't rehash that here. Suffice to say, if you can follow manufacturer's instructions, why wouldn't you. And keep in mind, while it might not matter for this out-of-warranty unit, SWGs are a consumable part, so you'll want the plumbing to spec for the next one you buy.

 

[pagreenpool]

Yah, not trying to talk you out of Hayward. I'm just sharing the single biggest mistake I made when I upgraded my pad. I trusted the installer to sell me all the right things. I should have posted here, and asked questions (just as you are doing), and then done my own due diligence to determine what each component could do, and if they all worked together well. Back then, I didn't know what I didn't know! (And it was before I found this site.)

I would now spend time here, and calling manufacturers' tech support, and downloading product owner manuals and pouring over them to determine what I need. As you point out: this stuff is too expensive to make purchasing mistakes.

That all said, if you haven't installed your SWG yet, you could always sell if if you found some compelling reason to go with another brand of gear. With today's prices, you'll probably make some money on it!

You are right about the SWG... could probably make money on it! I think I might be in over my head enough as it is right now to get a controller in to the mix.

If you decide to go with Hayward automation, they will control the salt cell you have. Make sure you get one that will control at least 8 items regardless of brand. I have always liked having the SWG separate from the automation, but that is just a personal preference. If you have a stand alone system, automation can turn it on and off with a relay.

If you want to go with the B&D/Blue Torrent pump, yes, get the largest horsepower and turn it down. Or, any other brand as well. That is the most efficient way to run a VSP. There is now an automation adapter for the B&D pump available if you decide to go that route. Some on this site have used it with success.

The recommendation of a certain pipe length in front of the SWG and pump are for optimal installs. There are many, many in use that have not been installed that way and work, but if you can follow manufacturer's instructions, it is always best, especially if there is ever a warranty claim. The first thing a warranty station will tell you is, "It wasn't installed properly." The warranty on you SWG is probably over anyway.

When those SWG systems first came out, they were all retro-fits and seldom could we install them to all the recommendations without huge re-plumbing, which most customers didn't/wouldn't approve due to the increase in cost. They still work, we just did our best. Over the years builders kept making equipment pads smaller with no room for additions that didn't exist at the time.

Since I already have the SWG I will probably not worry about the automation at this point. And if someone with experience (you) has it separated from the automation, that would probably work for me. Good to know that the B&D can be controller if I decide to go that route down the road.

My plumbing is 1.5". What are your thoughts on all the pool equipment being 2.0"? Basically that would be from the pump outlet to the SWG inlet? Do you need to have a 2" filter for that? Since I am replacing everything (except the heater), am considering this

 

[Dirk]

You are right about the SWG... could probably make money on it! I think I might be in over my head enough as it is right now to get a controller in to the mix.



Since I already have the SWG I will probably not worry about the automation at this point. And if someone with experience (you) has it separated from the automation, that would probably work for me. Good to know that the B&D can be controller if I decide to go that route down the road.

My plumbing is 1.5". What are your thoughts on all the pool equipment being 2.0"? Basically that would be from the pump outlet to the SWG inlet? Do you need to have a 2" filter for that? Since I am replacing everything (except the heater), am considering this

I don't mean to belabor, but this is a good example of what I meant by due diligence, and by studying manuals. I can only use Pentair as an example, because that's all I've ever owned.

I could schedule my SWG with a cheap light timer, and probably be just fine. But if convenience is your thing (like it is mine), then here's the difference. Any pool automation controller can work like a timer for any SWG. But a Pentair SWG controlled by Pentair automation allows me to adjust not only the SWG schedule, but also its chlorine output. When I check the weather, and see that it's cooling off, I can be in bed and pick up my phone and dial down my chlorine dosing for the next few days. It's going to heat up again later this week, so I'll be able to turn that SWG output back up again, with the touch of a button. And I have to regularly adjust the SWG output for the seasons: less in spring in fall, more in summer, etc. I don't want to have to mess with scheduling to vary my chlorine output, because that same schedule affects other things (like my solar heater). And I could be on the other side of the planet and do all that. From the same phone, I can see what my chlorine output is, and I can receive alerts if something is amiss. I can run my SWG's "super" mode just in front of a big pool party (or just after a particularly wild one). To do even some of that without automation, or with brand mis-matching, I'd have to go out to my pad, rain or shine, night or day, to accomplish it. And not all of that can be done without same-brand automation.

Some here have no such need for that type of convenience, and don't mind walking out to their equipment pad to make adjustments. And they don't want the cost or complication of maintaining electronic automation equipment. Both sides of this coin have their merits. I'm only encouraging you to understand those merits so that you can make an informed decision, not an instinctual one, or not one decided for you, by you, because you already own something.

You bought a Hayward SWG before you knew any of this. And now you're [feeling like you are] locked in to Hayward, whether that's the best solution for you or not. I'm projecting. I wish I could look back and know I bought the very best thing for myself and my pool. But I can't, because I skipped these steps.

I think I might be in over my head enough as it is right now to get a controller in to the mix.

That may be. But as I pointed out, all you need to do at this point is make sure your next round of purchases will fit with your "someday-dream-system." You don't have to buy everything now, you just want to be sure that what you do buy won't be a regret later.

 

[1poolman1]

You are right about the SWG... could probably make money on it! I think I might be in over my head enough as it is right now to get a controller in to the mix.



Since I already have the SWG I will probably not worry about the automation at this point. And if someone with experience (you) has it separated from the automation, that would probably work for me. Good to know that the B&D can be controller if I decide to go that route down the road.

My plumbing is 1.5". What are your thoughts on all the pool equipment being 2.0"? Basically that would be from the pump outlet to the SWG inlet? Do you need to have a 2" filter for that? Since I am replacing everything (except the heater), am considering this

From my earlier post:

You would want to go to 2" from the pump to the filter, filter to heater, heater to SWG and back to the return valves if you are replacing the filter, etc.

Its not a necessity, but is good practice. It does reduce the head introduced by the pipe and fittings on the above ground portion of the system by at least as much as the heater bypass so many recommend.

 

[pagreenpool]

From my earlier post:

You would want to go to 2" from the pump to the filter, filter to heater, heater to SWG and back to the return valves if you are replacing the filter, etc.

Its not a necessity, but is good practice. It does reduce the head introduced by the pipe and fittings on the above ground portion of the system by at least as much as the heater bypass so many recommend.

Sorry I did see that early

With regards to my DE filter, would you guys suggest swamping it out for a cartridge filter? If so, how do I get started in sizing the replacement?

 

[1poolman1]

As with any filter, you want the largest you can afford. Holds more dirt, clean less often. Don't start any smaller than 300 sq. ft. Unless you are in Florida (which you aren't) that is considered small by today's standards.

 

[Dirk]

As with any filter, you want the largest you can afford. Holds more dirt, clean less often.

I somewhat disagree with this very common TFP advice, based on my own experience. I'm very fortunate to have a very clean pool and yard. I don't have to clean my skimmer and pump baskets as often as others do. And I only have to clean my cartridge filter once a year. I actually skipped a year last time, so this last spring I cleaned it after two years. And it still wasn't all that dirty. And I have a suction-side cleaner, which dumps what it collects into the filter! Imagine if I used a robot!!

Cleaning my filter is the absolute worst pool task I have to do. And I'm glad my filter is not any larger than it is, because a larger filter would not lessen the cleaning frequency (I'd still do it once a year), it would just be more work, to hose down the much larger cartridges. Larger might mean cleaning less often in some pools, but smaller will mean less to clean!

So while I don't disagree with this "bigger is better" advice for some pools, maybe even most pools, it is not necessarily sound advice for every pool. I would advise you analyze just how dirty your pool gets, just how dirty your present filter gets, before buying the largest filter available.