Where to start with balancing water?

[reggiehammond]

It will help a little, but then a week later I'm right back in the same spot. Less if I'm scrubbing anything. A fresh cartridge I'll get a month out of.
I checked and the filter is good for 2.5x what I think the volume of the pool is. I even bought a hose attachment for spraying the filter out. That helped tremendously... but it's still a PITA compared to backwashing.

I think you’re delaying the inevitable - you need to SLAM and get the water sanitation in order. That will kick up more dead algae cells, but what’s different than what you’re doing now? Even if you have to break down the filter a few times over a week, it’ll save you a lot of time, effort, and money down the road.

Look into a filter flosser on Amazon - pull the cap off the cartridge filter, remove drain plug, and you can clean 95%+ of the filter cartridges without removing anything else.

 

[briangreul]

I have something that is substantially similar to the filter flosser and it helped tremendously, but does not get the filter back to new like a backwash does in the DE realm. I think a sand filter would be more my style of maintenance. It's as much a "I do not like pulling the filter and cleaning it" as anything else. My DE filter seemed to eat parts every 4 or 5 years and I disliked taking it apart and messing with it. Cartridge is simple, but more expensive. I think a sand filter would be backwashable and not require me to take it apart and do anything.

 

[briangreul]

I'm doing today's testing and would like some confirmation that I'm doing this right.... I think I am.
This was the TA test and the difference is one drop. In my view one photo is pink and the other is red and the last drop is the count. Anyone think I should be doing it differently?

 

[mknauss]

Follow Extended Test Kit Directions Archives

 

[briangreul]

Follow Extended Test Kit Directions Archives

The extended directions were a game changer. Wish I had seen that in the kit instructions.
Today's numbers shifted a little now that I know to take the CYA outside.
FC 2 CC 2 TC 4 CH 725 TA 176 CYA 65 (low confidence) PH (meter) 8.9 PH (test) 8.2+ CL (compare) 2-4, Salt (test) 3600, Salt (meter) 3590
So the CYA isn't too bad and that makes sense as I switched to SWG in March and haven't put anything in the pool with CYA in it since then. Taking the CYA outside in sunlight does make a difference in the reading vs indoors in average light.

I think that mucking around with the drain probably caused my PH to spike. I chipped out a lot of Crud and swirled up whatever had collected in there for who knows how long... 8 years I've owned it and that's the first time the cover was off. I'm puzzled why my salinity spiked. It was quite a bit lower by meter a week ago. I have not added salt since I switched to SWG. It's possible there could have been some salt in the bottom of the main drain, but that doesn't make much sense to me. The plaster was borderline needing replacement 8 years ago and it definitely needs help now. I've got a 8 inch piece that came loose and plan to patch it for now.

 

[Texas Splash]

I chipped out a lot of Crud and swirled up whatever had collected in there for who knows how long... 8 years I've owned it and that's the first time the cover was off.

Those are common algae homes. Good catch.

 

[briangreul]

Those are common algae homes. Good catch.

What stands out to me is CH 725 TA 176 CYA 65 PH 8.9
CYA isn't a killer, assuming my numbers are right. I'll test again tomorrow morning to see if I get some sort of consistency.
Does it make sense to try and bring the PH down with high TA/CH? and then SLAM once I'm closer to balanced? or should I proceed with a water change and scrub out the algae in the process.
I'm also scratching my head trying to figure out why the salt readings jumped 1000+ppm since yesterday.
From what I know about Algae, even if I kill it I'm going to be left with a lot of organics in the water. In the Aquarium world if you want to get rid of Algae you have to get rid of nitrites/nitrates and TDS. That should hold true in the pool world as well. I can't think of anything taking TDS out of the water and this water has been in there a long long time.

 

[briangreul]

I downloaded PoolMath this evening and paid for the year subscription...... put all the numbers in.
It has several recommendations to bring the water closer to normal.
Of those, the CH is recommending a 40% water change.
Is there a preferred sequence in trying to balance the water?
I'm expecting that a 40% water change will move all the other numbers.

 

[reggiehammond]

I'm expecting that a 40% water change will move all the other numbers.

Yeah - if you’re dumping 40-50% of water, don’t waste chemicals on the other items. Getting a confident CYA number is as important as your CH number for determining how much to dump.

 

[Texas Splash]

Brian, we cannot over-emphasize the importance of accurate water testing. Anything less is extremely frustrating to you as the owner, not to mention wasteful in time, energy, and $$$. We always say with accurate testing from your TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit, we can help you through anything. That said, let me touch on a few points you mentioned:
- You CH, TA, or pH has nothing to do with algae. You can basically eliminate nitrates or other issues from that concern as well. In the pool world it all boils down to the FC-CYA relationship. When the balance between those two is off, algae can easily form. To kill algae, you must follow the SLAM Process.
- Unless that's a typo, your TA result of 176 is odd. Again, not related to algae, but noted.
- As long as your pH is between 7.2-7.8, it's good for pools & swimming. It should almost never be over 7.8.
- You CH (if accurate) of about 700 is slightly elevated, but manageable. We have TFP owners with a CH of 1,000 or more. They simply compensate by keeping the pH and TA lower which helps adjust the CSI to prevent scale. So for CH alone, there is no need for an urgent water exchange if you don't want to do it.
- Same for the CYA. If it's around 70, you can live with that. It will fall over the winter to where next spring it will be in a good starting point. Just keep the FC balanced to that CYA as noted on the FC/CYA Levels.

If your testing is accurate from a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C, then my priority would be as follows:
1 - Lower pH to 7.2, then let it rise naturally to 8.0 and lower again to 7.2. Repeat until the TA falls to about 60 which will help keep the pH more steady. Once the TA is at about 60, tne let the pH stay at about 7.6-7.8.
2 - Leave the CH and CYA alone.
3 - Do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to confirm or rule-out algae (unless you know you have it already). If you fail, start a SLAM Process. If you have no algae, simply balance the FC to the CYA as noted on the FC/CYA Levels.

That's it,

 

[briangreul]

Brian, we cannot over-emphasize the importance of accurate water testing. Anything less is extremely frustrating to you as the owner, not to mention wasteful in time, energy, and $$$. We always say with accurate testing from your TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C test kit, we can help you through anything. That said, let me touch on a few points you mentioned:
- You CH, TA, or pH has nothing to do with algae. You can basically eliminate nitrates or other issues from that concern as well. In the pool world it all boils down to the FC-CYA relationship. When the balance between those two is off, algae can easily form. To kill algae, you must follow the SLAM Process.
- Unless that's a typo, your TA result of 176 is odd. Again, not related to algae, but noted.
- As long as your pH is between 7.2-7.8, it's good for pools & swimming. It should almost never be over 7.8.
- You CH (if accurate) of about 700 is slightly elevated, but manageable. We have TFP owners with a CH of 1,000 or more. They simply compensate by keeping the pH and TA lower which helps adjust the CSI to prevent scale. So for CH alone, there is no need for an urgent water exchange if you don't want to do it.
- Same for the CYA. If it's around 70, you can live with that. It will fall over the winter to where next spring it will be in a good starting point. Just keep the FC balanced to that CYA as noted on the FC/CYA Levels.

If your testing is accurate from a TF-100 or Taylor K-2006C, then my priority would be as follows:
1 - Lower pH to 7.2, then let it rise naturally to 8.0 and lower again to 7.2. Repeat until the TA falls to about 60 which will help keep the pH more steady. Once the TA is at about 60, tne let the pH stay at about 7.6-7.8.
2 - Leave the CH and CYA alone.
3 - Do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to confirm or rule-out algae (unless you know you have it already). If you fail, start a SLAM Process. If you have no algae, simply balance the FC to the CYA as noted on the FC/CYA Levels.

That's it,

I have enough Algae that I'm wondering if it has commercial value. Mustard anyone? lol. I've resisted posting photos because it's bad and embarrassing.... but here are an overview and closeup..... suffice to say I have algae. I have fought Mustard Algae since I've owned this pool. I read up on Borates and I like what I read. Enough that I'm willing to give it a shot post SLAM. One thing at a time, and right now I need to balance the water and eliminate the algae. The water is a little hazy today. Nothing I'm proud of.

The numbers are accurate and I'm using a TF-Pro Salt. I bought the PH meter there as well. I have a salt meter from Amazon that is within 10% of what the chemical salt test is giving me, so I'll take that as accurate enough, and oddly it's very high after I dug in the main drain the other day.

Today's numbers are:
FC 2.2, CC 1.5 (TC 3.7) PH 9.2 (no idea why this is climbing), TA 165 CH 775, CYA 65 (I'm the least confident on this test because the small tube is hard to read)
I'm doing my testing at my desk and when I'm not in a rush. Right now I'm running a full set of tests each day to make sure I'm doing it consistently and to be confident that the numbers are consistent. I've done this for 3 days now.
Historically CYA has been stupid high, but I have not put anything with CYA in since I converted to salt around 6 months ago.
Salt is reading 3600 ppm, but was around 2400 before I dug in the main drain and dislodged all sorts of Crud to get the relief plug viewable. I thought most of it was plaster dust and excess plaster.

My dilemma at this point is do I start trying to balance the water or do a partial water change?
Pool Math thinks a 40% water change would help my numbers. I think that's probably cheaper than several gallons of liquid chlorine and muriatic acid. It also has the added bonus of letting me flush junk out of the pool if I brush vigorously and it will get rid of some of the TDS along with some of the copper based algaecide that's there. I was originally going to try and do a plaster patch while I had water out, but I'm going to postpone that for later. Right now I want to declare war on the algae.

My current timer settings are 6a-Noon and 6p-Midnight to run the pump/filter/SWG. In the summer my pool needs about 12 hours of circulation. No benefit to running form midnight to 6am and I try to ease power consumption in the afternoon as that's when we have power issues in the summer. I probably shouldn't try to do my part, but I do. I'm open to changing my timer settings. It's all run through Home Assistant and some Z-Wave GE boxes on the pumps.

Right now I know I need to SLAM the pool. I knew that before I bought the TF test kit. I just don't want to dump chemicals in only to flush them a few days later and start over. Home Depot seems to have the most competitive pricing on acid and liquid chlorine. I checked them and WalMart. One of my to-do's this afternoon is to go buy 6 gallons of acid and 10 gallons of liquid chlorine so I'm ready to slam the pool.

 

[Texas Splash]

Good info and we can help coach you through this. Since you have a cartridge filter like me, you probably have no way to vacuum directly to waste unless someone installed a valve between the pump outlet and the filter. If you have a separate trash/sump pump, that's an option if you wanted to do that and exchange some water at the same time before starting the SLAM Process.

The pH has me most concerned. With your TF100 kit, the reagent for the pH should be the R-0014 correct? Five drops, then viewed with something light behind like a piece of paper. Or like me use the siding of your house if it is light color like mine (beige). While your TA is elevated, it will allow the pH to climb quicker. If you have anything creating aeration, that will do it as well. Other than that, keep about 2-3 jugs of muriatic acid handy, stored outside away from everything else (corrosion) so that you can do the pH drill of lowering to about 7.2, letting it rise to 8.0, then lowering it again. That will slowly lower the TA.

If you elect to start the SLAM now, then you'll only be able to lower the pH once because the pH reading is not valid when the FC is over 10 ppm during SLAM mode. Certainly your call on the partial water exchange. Let us know, we'll be here to assist.

 

[briangreul]

Good info and we can help coach you through this. Since you have a cartridge filter like me, you probably have no way to vacuum directly to waste unless someone installed a valve between the pump outlet and the filter. If you have a separate trash/sump pump, that's an option if you wanted to do that and exchange some water at the same time before starting the SLAM Process.

The pH has me most concerned. With your TF100 kit, the reagent for the pH should be the R-0014 correct? Five drops, then viewed with something light behind like a piece of paper. Or like me use the siding of your house if it is light color like mine (beige). While your TA is elevated, it will allow the pH to climb quicker. If you have anything creating aeration, that will do it as well. Other than that, keep about 2-3 jugs of muriatic acid handy, stored outside away from everything else (corrosion) so that you can do the pH drill of lowering to about 7.2, letting it rise to 8.0, then lowering it again. That will slowly lower the TA.

If you elect to start the SLAM now, then you'll only be able to lower the pH once because the pH reading is not valid when the FC is over 10 ppm during SLAM mode. Certainly your call on the partial water exchange. Let us know, we'll be here to assist.

I just got back from HD.
Liquid Chlorine (10%) was $17.98 for 4 gallons.
Muriatic Acid was 2 gal for $18.
I bought 16 gallons of chlorine and 8 gallons of acid.

I think I'm going to drop the PH and SLAM it. I have a water remove / replace on the agenda when I patch the plaster by the light.

I do have a waste outlet that is leftover from when I had a DE filter. I replumbed it for dumping water when I converted to cartridge.

My first step is to follow what Pool Math says for lowering PH. I'm just going to see where that takes me. It calls for 86 oz to reach 7.2 PH from my current reading. So I'm going to set the pump to always on and drop some acid (in the water) and see where that takes me. lol. I'll measure it again in the morning and see what has happened overnight.

 

[briangreul]

It's a shame that Pool Math doesn't give you metric. I have a 1 Liter beaker and had to convert 86 ounces to Liters. Alexa to the rescue. That acid is nasty stuff. I did not realize it was the color of Mountain Dew.

31.45% or 20 Baume Acid is what they carry at my Home Depot.

 

[briangreul]

After reviewing Pool School I concluded that a couple hours was enough time to re-test and re-dose the PH.
PH dropped to 7.8 from 8.9/9.0. Pool Math prescribed another 49 ounces (1.45L) of 31.45% acid with a target of PH of 7.2.
I'm using the digital meter to check PH. The chemical tests in the TF-Pro Salt kit are in line with the meter which gives me confidence in it's readings. I did calibrate it prior to using it as well.
I'm going to let it run non-stop and see where it's at in the morning. SWG is putting off quite a bit more chlorine. In the past I had to really struggle to see if it was producing. I can now clearly see it producing, so this makes me feel better. I realize when I start SLAM the SWG gets turned off, but for now I'm letting it add chlorine until I feel like the water is better balanced and I'm ready to start SLAM.

 

[Texas Splash]

That acid is nasty stuff.

Yes, it deserves respect. But it's the greatest. Just watch the wind direction and careful of splashing and you should be fine. Go in stages with the pH if you have to until you are sure to get reliable color views in the OTO viewer. Once you get the pH anywhere in the 7.2-7.4 range you can begin the SLAM Process. Refer to that page often. Success is in the details, especially about doing what you can to "maintain" the proper FC level. If you have any questions let us know.

Liquid Chlorine (10%) was $17.98 for 4 gallons.
Muriatic Acid was 2 gal for $18.

That is upsetting. I need some MA as well.

 

[briangreul]

Yes, it deserves respect. But it's the greatest. Just watch the wind direction and careful of splashing and you should be fine. Go in stages with the pH if you have to until you are sure to get reliable color views in the OTO viewer. Once you get the pH anywhere in the 7.2-7.4 range you can begin the SLAM Process. Refer to that page often. Success is in the details, especially about doing what you can to "maintain" the proper FC level. If you have any questions let us know.


That is upsetting. I need some MA as well.

Is the OTO the color match test as opposed to the more complicated test in the kit?

 

[JamesW]

I have a 1 Liter beaker and had to convert 86 ounces to Liters.

Remember, no glass by the pool.

Looks like a mixture of black algae and maybe a type of mustard algae.

Brush everything as much as possible while doing the SLAM.

 

[JamesW]

Looks like maybe some copper stains as well, but it is difficult to tell for sure.

These might get worse during the SLAM if you have a lot of copper in the water.

Can you show a picture of the system?

What's the history on the pool?

Are you new to the property or did the maintenance get behind for some reason?

What filter do you have?

Why are the cartridges getting trashed so fast?

Why can't they be cleaned?

 

[JamesW]

I also have some Clorox Algaecide in the pool. It's copper based which should be compatible with the SWG.

The copper is probably going to stain some unless you can get rid of it with a dilution process.

Calcium hypochlorite is the most likely to cause stains.

What brush do you have?

Is the pool plaster?

If yes, how old is the plaster and what mix is it?