High CH; RO refill service in Metro Phoenix

[proavia]

You will probably lose 1 to 1.5 times your pool volume per year here in the PHX area. Without a softener, your CH should rise 250 to 325 ppm per year. Being at around 1000 ppm CH in less than two years lends to calcium being added somehow. Maybe in a granular shock product being unnecessarily added?

In Chandler, I average an unsoftened tap water CH of 225 ppm and a TA of 120. Softened fill water CH is usually less than 50 ppm.

• Are you using a speedstir when testing? Using one will provide more accurate results - and usually a lower CH reading due to consistent mixing. Twirling by hand and using ~40 drops of reagent can increase testing error.
• Holding the reagent bottles perfectly vertical?
• Dispensing 1 drop avout every 1 second?
• Letting the drops fully form on the tip and not forcing them off?

Do you have automation? If so, add that to your signature.

As an aside, having a 31k pool with an IC40 SWG (rated for 40k when running at 100% 24/7) will require longer pump run times at higher percentages in summer. When that SWG needs replacing, consider an IC60. We recommend a SWG at least 2x the pool volume.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

How long does it take you when you do it? I guess I'm not fully understanding how the actual process works.

Flush times vary depending on the size of unit, but the process is the same. If I had a whole-home system, I would pay a good sum to have the fill-line connected.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Flush times vary depending on the size of unit, but the process is the same. If I had a whole-home system, I would pay a good sum to have the fill-line connected.

And of course on this thread you answered my question on the other thread. Still I think it looks pretty intriguing...

I'll add in that ion exchange water softeners eliminate "hardness" by having a resin medium that is a catalyst to exchanging salt or potassium chloride (much more expensive) or a combination of both with the Magnesium and Calcium ions. Once the resin is depleted of Sodium and/or potassium then the way to flush out the "hardness" or Mg/Ca ions is to super saturate the medium with sodium or potassium chloride. That is the recharge. It certainly can be done manually....

 

[JoyfulNoise]

For reference, before my water softener installation, my pool water crept up to just under 1500ppm CH. It was impossible to keep the saturation in balance without having ridiculously low TA (compared too the input source which is 90-120ppm) and low pH. I was easily adding acid every 4 days or so. After adding in the water softener and doing a few exchange drains, I got my water down to 550ppm last May. This June I measured it again (over a year later) and the CH is .... 575ppm. Prior to using softened water, my CH crept up by 250-300ppm per year.

So, as you can see, once you are using softened water for filling, the CH will barely move. And with a CH in the low range, you can not fiddle some much with pH and TA. In fact, if you were to get your pool back down to the 200-250ppm range, you could leave your pH up in the high 7's and your TA around 80-90ppm and your CSI would be fine. That would also translate into adding acid to the pool very infrequently. Right now I can go 7-10 days between acid additions but I bet that could easily stretch out to over 2 weeks if I got my CH lower.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Marty, so if you're not necessarily keeping on top of that daily (or even weekly at times) and you still have that low of CH then doing a manual regen shouldnt be that cumbersome. I was thinking it had to be done daily. How long does it take you when you do it? I guess I'm not fully understanding how the actual process works.

Keep in mind, Marty's pool @ 6,000 gallons has a much smaller surface area than your pool. Assuming the same evaporation rate, your pool will require about 4-5 times the amount of of fill water as Marty's pool. I have the "Park Model" (28,800 grain vs. the "Double" 16,000 grain). My tap water CH is only 125 ppm, and I need to flush every every 2 weeks after 1,000 gallons has passed through the softener. I tested my softened water after 1,000 gallons and CH was 30 ppm. At 1,500 gallons, CH was at 100 ppm. I can't recommend an RV softener for larger pools unless you're prepared to flush/regen every one or maybe two weeks (for the Park Model). The claims of "Estimated Capacities" listed on the website are not realistic based on my experience.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

For reference, before my water softener installation, my pool water crept up to just under 1500ppm CH. It was impossible to keep the saturation in balance without having ridiculously low TA (compared too the input source which is 90-120ppm) and low pH. I was easily adding acid every 4 days or so. After adding in the water softener and doing a few exchange drains, I got my water down to 550ppm last May. This June I measured it again (over a year later) and the CH is .... 575ppm. Prior to using softened water, my CH crept up by 250-300ppm per year.

So, as you can see, once you are using softened water for filling, the CH will barely move. And with a CH in the low range, you can not fiddle some much with pH and TA. In fact, if you were to get your pool back down to the 200-250ppm range, you could leave your pH up in the high 7's and your TA around 80-90ppm and your CSI would be fine. That would also translate into adding acid to the pool very infrequently. Right now I can go 7-10 days between acid additions but I bet that could easily stretch out to over 2 weeks if I got my CH lower.

Actually, that is interesting. I probably spend $10 a week in acid right now. I can probably justify adding the softener to the pool easily for a year of that. The price of the acid just keeps going up too. It was like $6/wk last year.

You are on the main system in Tucson and I am on the Corona de Tucson system, different aquifers IIRC. I think your TA is far more reasonable than CDT but your average CH is also higher, but we are still not that far off practically. It's not like my soft by AZ standards water at the second house pulling from the San Pedro river basin. I was in total shock when the TDS meter read 130 there....

Will need to seriously consider the RV unit as I think it would be fine in the "equipment shed" I built around the equipment. I worried that another home softener unit out there would not survive even being shielded from rain and the sun... Manual recharge would suck but little harm would happen if I couldn't recharge it for several weeks, and I probably would bypass it in the winter....

As horrible as I have been doing versus perfect TFP standards in the last 18 months or so, I am also the only pool in the neighborhood that hasn't needed the tile cleaners to come at least once yet. Doing a softener would probably help with that too...

 

[71ailmar]

I guess I wasnt thinking that my tap water TA was high since it's usually been within the acceptable range.
And with the auto-fill, I dont have any idea how much we lose to evaporation.

I recently lowered the TA from 80 to 70 to see if I could get better pH stability but it didnt seem to make a difference. I suppose I can try to go lower (to 60) but then that's the bottom of the acceptable range when I refer to the SWG chemistry recommendations.

And as for any additives in the pool, all I ever add is MA....oh, and just recently for the 1st time I added liquid stabilizer (from Leslie's) in order to get my CYA up to recommended levels. My pool guy (who I fired last month) has added chlorine pucks here and there in the past. That's it.
And I'm not sure why they add the pucks....I have a SWG that I can put on superchlorinate if I need an increase in FC and I'd ask them repeatedly to just switch that on at the intellicenter if it's needed. But to no avail.

 

[mknauss]

They added pucks because that is what they use. They are very acidic so that helped with the pH.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

And I'm not sure why they add the pucks....I have a SWG that I can put on superchlorinate if I need an increase in FC and I'd ask them repeatedly to just switch that on at the intellicenter if it's needed. But to no avail.

That’s because pool services treat all pools the same way no matter what equipment is at the pad. They have their chemical regimen that they understand and they stick to it. They’re not as sophisticated as they claim to be and few of them ever check chemical levels … if they do, they use strips and guesstimate. That is why pool service companies are a total waste of money.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I guess I wasnt thinking that my tap water TA was high since it's usually been within the acceptable range.
And with the auto-fill, I dont have any idea how much we lose to evaporation.

I recently lowered the TA from 80 to 70 to see if I could get better pH stability but it didnt seem to make a difference. I suppose I can try to go lower (to 60) but then that's the bottom of the acceptable range when I refer to the SWG chemistry recommendations.

And as for any additives in the pool, all I ever add is MA....oh, and just recently for the 1st time I added liquid stabilizer (from Leslie's) in order to get my CYA up to recommended levels. My pool guy (who I fired last month) has added chlorine pucks here and there in the past. That's it.
And I'm not sure why they add the pucks....I have a SWG that I can put on superchlorinate if I need an increase in FC and I'd ask them repeatedly to just switch that on at the intellicenter if it's needed. But to no avail.

They also might have added them to get the CYA level up, also and for the acid. Might have even been okay since your CYA was low... TFP obviously isn't against pucks (trichlor and dichlor) if used in a calculated and intelligent fashion. It's just easier NOT to use them in most circumstances when following the plan. If you were using bleach for TFP and had to go away for a couple of weeks, then pucks and a floater is how you would do it, for example....

 

[Darkjuju]

I don't know if this is helpful or not but I had the same challenges fighting PH and I think that switching to dry acid and only using a single CYA chlorine puck a week boosted with liquid bleach or chlorine has kept my PH down steady in the 7.4 area /w a CH ~825/TA140/CYA 75 -ish, I live in North Phoenix

 

[mknauss]

switching to dry acid

Very poor idea to use dry acid in our climate. The sulfates build up and degrade metal and plaster. Your choice.

 

[ajw22]

I don't know if this is helpful or not but I had the same challenges fighting PH and I think that switching to dry acid and only using a single CYA chlorine puck a week boosted with liquid bleach or chlorine has kept my PH down steady in the 7.4 area /w a CH ~825/TA140/CYA 75 -ish, I live in North Phoenix

I don’t know anything about your pool since you don’t have a signature describing your pool and equipment. But the sulfates in dry acid are not good around the pool.

Dry acid is sodium bisulfate. After dissociation of the acid salt, it leaves behind the sulfate ion.

Problems sulfates can cause include:

• Sulfates can damage concrete & plaster
• Excess sulfates in water increases the likelihood of corrosion on metal parts
• Excess sulfates in splash out water leads to degradation of any concrete surfaces
• Sulfates degrade the coatings on SWG plates
• At high enough concentrations, sulfates can react with calcium to form spindly, needle-like crystals of calcium sulfate (gypsum)
• While sulfates in vinyl pools is typically not as problematic as in plaster pools, scaling of gypsum crystals can increase the risk of liner puncture.

Sulfates can only be removed by draining water.

Pentair specifically says on page 9 in the IntelliChlor SWG Manual[11] - CAUTION: The use of dry acid (sodium bisulfate) to adjust pool pH is discouraged especially in arid regions where pool water is subject to excessive evaporation and is not commonly diluted with fresh water. Dry acid can cause a buildup of by-products that can damage your chlorinator cell.

 

[Jughead]

I am in Peoria and on EPCOR water. They set our sewer rates based on Jan/Feb/Mar usage but if you do a refill during that time you can file a form with the city online and they will subtract that water out of their assessment. If that’s when you want to do your refill it may be worth a call to see if your municipality has a similar variance process.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Is there any real risk to pulling the water level down a foot or so and then letting it refill for a plaster pool in the desert? I'd like to also try to get at the tile line when I do the water swap in the fall. I know that being down for one day likely will have little ill effects. That is the sort of time frame I am thinking. Probably will be October before I attempt this, but cleaning the SWCG monthly now is getting old and probably not good for it.

Doing the math if I can do that a few times I should save a significant amount of water over doing it with the autofill on.... The fill is 150 ppm CH right now.. wish I had the time to do it now.. that's about as low as it gets here...