"Recommended" ranges

[Dirk]

To be clear, dosing above target increases chlorine loss to the sun. So theoretically, doing so will cost you some chlorine. Dosing "up," as you put it, would not be wasting chlorine in the same way. But you risk an algae event by doing so. Which would necessitate a SLAM, which guaranteed would "waste" way, way more chlorine than this "over-dosing" strategy would. So it's a trade off. What's your preference? What's your risk tolerance?

If your pool cooperates, you'd dose to the high-value of your target range, and your pool would only drift down to the low value of your target range. You just have to experiment to see if it'll do that. And even if it won't in mid-summer, it might in spring or fall. Yep, even after learning all you learn about your pool, it'll all change with the seasons! It's a learning curve process. But I can say with some authority, you're doing great and better than most.

Based on my experience with my pool, I know that at mid-summer my pool will turn on me around FC2.5. So I strategize my FC dispensing based on staying well away from 2.5 at all times. You don't know what that number is for your pool yet, which is why I suggested you play it safe. As you learn your pool, you'll adjust your MO to fit your pool and your maintenance "tolerance."

 

[cledee]

@Jughead The most important thing in the beginning is to constantly test FC, PH, 1-2 times a day for a couple of weeks until you are comfortable and then keep with the TFP recommended ranges until you learn your pool. Once you learn your pool (daily chlorine loss, PH rise) still continue to stay within the recommended ranges, never letting chlorine fall below the minimum, and not going more than 2ppm above your max target since you would just be wasting chlorine (exception for when you have to do a slam). Some of the members have said not to the stress about the ranges, but until you get comfortable with your testing, knowing your daily chlorine loss and PH rise, it's important to keep on it until you learn your pool.

 

[Dirk]

^^^ What he said. A good example of what I described to you earlier: you might get multiple people helping you here at TFP, but we'll all tell you pretty much the same thing! It's the TFP way... neighbors and pool guys and pimply-faced pool store employees... not so much. And the reason we've all climbed onto this train is because we've all tried TFP, and it worked!

 

[Jughead]

As the sun is about down, I was going to try the OCLT but my test showed 2.0. Not much to leak off from that, and kind of surprising given how much I added today and how hot and sunny it wasn’t. I will add LC this evening but I don’t think it will circulate sufficiently yet this evening to get another good baseline test. Perhaps tomorrow night I can do it, maybe add my LC in the mid to late afternoon.

 

[Dirk]

I don’t think it will circulate sufficiently

Sure it will. Test, bring it up to FC6. It'll only take about 30 minutes of good pumpin', then test again to confirm the FC6. Then again before sunrise for the OCLT.

 

[Jughead]

Okay, then (family-friendly redaction) the torpedoes, full speed ahead. I added enough to get it up to 7 before I saw your response; the hard part now is going to be getting up early enough to test it before the sunrise which my weather app says is...5:38am. Ouch.

 

[mknauss]

Mainly need to test before sunlight hits the surface of the pool water.

 

[Jughead]

Hopefully that's the last I get to mess with it tonight - this is starting to feel like a part-time job. Is it normal to feel like you should be buying reagents wholesale or in bulk?

FC is 6.5, plus I added MA to bring the pH down to 7.2 as the latest skirmish in the War on Alkalinity. Now to see what the day brings tomorrow...

 

[Dirk]

OK, sounds like you tested before and after you dosed tonight. That's what I was suggesting, so that you have a known starting point (the 6.5 you got after you dosed and circulated). That will make your OCLT more accurate than just relying on test/dose and assuming the dosing brought you up to where Pool Math calculated.

 

[Jughead]

OCLT seems to be just on the margins of successful. Today’s winning lotto numbers are:

FC - 5.5
CC - 0
TA - 100
pH - 7.5
CYA - 30

I didn’t quite beat the sunrise but I’m hoping that the 90 minutes it had on me was tempered by the overcast. Those numbers all seem to be pretty much where they’re supposed to be, though I’ll keep working the TA down into double digits and add some more stabilizer to see if that helps alleviate some of the daily FC loss.

 

[mcleod]

It was just a curiosity, and a bit down the list of things to deal with at the moment. I‘ll start a new thread on it when I get closer to being able to actually deal with it but first the chemistry balance and then the SWG issue need to be resolved. I suppose at this rate I’ll be over on the SWG page asking new questions by the end of the week.

In the meantime, I may give the pumice a little trial run just to see - a proof-of-concept, if you will. I found some inactive threads on the subject that seem to indicate it is a pretty common practice, even if it is endorsed by the pool stores.

Late to the party as always...I'll throw this one thought into the mix. If you use acid to clean calcium deposits, you must neutralize that acid. Rinsing with water is NOT neutralizing. Rinsing with baking soda mixed with water or ammonia diluted in water neutralizes the acid. You determine the success of the neutralizing by removing the neutralizer, rewetting with fresh water, and placing a pH strip (full range) in the water to take a reading. Adjust accordingly.

 

[duraleigh]

Late to the party as always...I'll throw this one thought into the mix. If you use acid to clean calcium deposits, you must neutralize that acid. Rinsing with water is NOT neutralizing. Rinsing with baking soda mixed with water or ammonia diluted in water neutralizes the acid. You determine the success of the neutralizing by removing the neutralizer, rewetting with fresh water, and placing a pH strip (full range) in the water to take a reading. Adjust accordingly.

That's new to me. It strikes me that rinsing with water is sufficient.

After the rinse, what acid are you neutralizing? Certainly there could be TRACE residuals left but, it seems to me, not enough to have any influence or cause any damage, right?

 

[Dirk]

That's new to me. It strikes me that rinsing with water is sufficient.

After the rinse, what acid are you neutralizing? Certainly there could be TRACE residuals left but, it seems to me, not enough to have any influence or cause any damage, right?

The "trace residuals" could cause little or no damage, but might, and the way to be sure they don't is to neutralize the acid, and then test to confirm it's neutralized. And don't forget about the runoff: where that rinse water ends up. When my pool was acid washed, it was rinsed with water, but not neutralized. The acid wash and its residuals destroyed the plaster, but it didn't stop there. That acid/water runoff mixture formed a puddle in the deep end. Later, I could clearly see the extensive additional damage that resulted in that deep-end puddle. Water dilutes acid, but doesn't neutralize it, and so it can continue to do its "acid thing" if you don't properly deal with it. Neutralizing the acid, in addition to rinsing it, is the correct way to be certain the effects of the acid cease when you want them to. Failing to do so can result in anywhere between zero to catastrophic damage. @mcleod is describing how to ensure it's zero.

 

[mcleod]

The "trace residuals" could cause little or no damage, but might, and the way to be sure they don't is to neutralize the acid, and then test to confirm it's neutralized. And don't forget about the runoff: where that rinse water ends up. When my pool was acid washed, it was rinsed with water, but not neutralized. The acid wash and its residuals destroyed the plaster, but it didn't stop there. That acid/water runoff mixture formed a puddle in the deep end. Later, I could clearly see the extensive additional damage that resulted in that deep-end puddle. Water dilutes acid, but doesn't neutralize it, and so it can continue to do its "acid thing" if you don't properly deal with it. Neutralizing the acid, in addition to rinsing it, is the correct way to be certain the effects of the acid cease when you want them to. Failing to do so can result in anywhere between zero to catastrophic damage. @mcleod is describing how to ensure it's zero.

Good summary

 

[duraleigh]

between zero to catastrophic damage.

That's a pretty wide range. My common sense is telling me we may be talking about different surface applications. I have also hi-jacked the thread so I'll start a new one soon.

 

[Dirk]

That's a pretty wide range. My common sense is telling me we may be talking about different surface applications. I have also hi-jacked the thread so I'll start a new one soon.

Yes, different surface applications and different techniques.

Someone might drop their water level a few inches and use a partially-neutralized solution of muriatic acid ("weakened" with enough base to raise its pH to a less aggressive solution) to help them clean a hazy ring of calcium deposit off their edge tiles, all the while washing the cleaned tile with liberal splashes of pool water as they go. That would leave little or no acid behind and not likely cause any damage at all. So zero.

If that same job was done with full-strength acid, and scrubbed on sloppily and not rinsed off well, then that might damage the grout or the plaster just below the tile. So not zero damage, but not necessarily catastrophic either.

My pool was emptied and acid washed with [probably] full-strength 31% muriatic acid, and was rinsed with water "some time" later, perhaps right away, perhaps not, and probably carelessly. Whatever acid remaining on the plaster was not neutralized, and continued to damage the plaster for hours. Additionally, the rinse run-off created a large 10' puddle in the deep end, which wasn't neutralized either, and severely damaged that area of the plaster even worse. So... catastrophic.

Yes, a bit of a hijack, but it doesn't necessarily hurt to school new members that muriatic acid is powerful stuff and shouldn't be used willy-nilly like some sort of household cleaner. Use only the strength necessary to do the job, neutralize it immediately with a base solution when done, and then rinse the area thoroughly. The OP is having issues with calcium buildup on his finish and edge tile, and before he gets the idea of using muriatic acid directly on the calcium to keep that under control, I wanted to share the potential ramifications of that.

The attachment is just one of dozens of pictures I took of my plaster after it was subjected to muriatic acid without being properly neutralized. The whole pool looked like this. Not just rough, or etched, but eaten away. I have to think the worker applying the acid did not see this immediately happening, otherwise he would have stopped. The damage occurred some time later, probably after he moved on to the next area. Whatever acid he left unneutralized on my plaster continued to eat away at it, and he probably only saw it as he came back around full-circle to where he started, which by then was too late. So he did the only thing he could, he filled the pool and pretended it was fine. And then later, when I called him back to the pool to show him the damage, he declared it was due to faulty plaster! Yah, he ended up buying me a new pebble finish!

 

[mcleod]

Yes, different surface applications and different techniques.

Someone might drop their water level a few inches and use a partially-neutralized solution of muriatic acid ("weakened" with enough base to raise its pH to a less aggressive solution) to help them clean a hazy ring of calcium deposit off their edge tiles, all the while washing the cleaned tile with liberal splashes of pool water as they go. That would leave little or no acid behind and not likely cause any damage at all. So zero.

If that same job was done with full-strength acid, and scrubbed on sloppily and not rinsed off well, then that might damage the grout or the plaster just below the tile. So not zero damage, but not necessarily catastrophic either.

My pool was emptied and acid washed with [probably] full-strength 31% muriatic acid, and was rinsed with water "some time" later, perhaps right away, perhaps not, and probably carelessly. Whatever acid remaining on the plaster was not neutralized, and continued to damage the plaster for hours. Additionally, the rinse run-off created a large 10' puddle in the deep end, which wasn't neutralized either, and severely damaged that area of the plaster even worse. So... catastrophic.

Yes, a bit of a hijack, but it doesn't necessarily hurt to school new members that muriatic acid is powerful stuff and shouldn't be used willy-nilly like some sort of household cleaner. Use only the strength necessary to do the job, neutralize it immediately with a base solution when done, and then rinse the area thoroughly. The OP is having issues with calcium buildup on his finish and edge tile, and before he gets the idea of using muriatic acid directly on the calcium to keep that under control, I wanted to share the potential ramifications of that.

The attachment is just one of dozens of pictures I took of my plaster after it was subjected to muriatic acid without being properly neutralized. The whole pool looked like this. Not just rough, or etched, but eaten away. I have to think the worker applying the acid did not see this immediately happening, otherwise he would have stopped. The damage occurred some time later, probably after he moved on to the next area. Whatever acid he left unneutralized on my plaster continued to eat away at it, and he probably only saw it as he came back around full-circle to where he started, which by then was too late. So he did the only thing he could, he filled the pool and pretended it was fine. And then later, when I called him back to the pool to show him the damage, he declared it was due to faulty plaster! Yah, he ended up buying me a new pebble finish!

I might add that there are many types of acid. Acetic acid, for example, is vinegar and can be effective on light efflorescence. The automatic inclination to go for muriatic (hydrochloric acid) is widespread and recommendations for its use should be tempered IMHO

 

[Dirk]

I might add that there are many types of acid. Acetic acid, for example, is vinegar and can be effective on light efflorescence. The automatic inclination to go for muriatic (hydrochloric acid) is widespread and recommendations for its use should be tempered IMHO

An excellent point. But, speaking only for myself, I know why I would tend to use Muriatic: because (1) I always have it on hand, for the pool, and (2) I already know that it's OK to use in my pool, and what, exactly, its affects would be in my water. I have some efflorescence on my tile, and I know I have to get to it this year before it gets too bad. I really don't want to be splashin' Muriatic around while working in the pool, in my face, breathing it in, etc. But I know it's affect on my water will be relatively harmless. I would much rather try vinegar ('cause I've got a gallon of that, too), but I don't know if getting a lot of that in my pool water is a good idea or not.

 

[Jughead]

Sorry, was away for a while but this has been interesting catching up. I may give the vinegar a try on a spot or two just to see if it has the horsepower to take any of this away until we can get the blastman in to give it its own little glass hail storm. I tried muriatic acid on it before we had it bead blasted last time (nearly three years ago) and it seemed to have no effect so it was a one-time attempt that went nowhere. If I recall, something on the Interwebz told me then that there is a type of buildup that acid won't remove, it must be blasted, and as my luck would have it that's what I apparently had. Even the Heavy Duty Industrial As-Used-By-NASA Pool Store Calcium Remover had no effect (I know you're as surprised as I was).

Then again, with a steady diet of high pH LC we are adding acid at a pretty steady rate anyway so maybe adding it via the tiles isn't a bad way to get double our money's worth out of it.

Unrelated, but I saw this at the airport as I was connecting through and since my first thought was "no, that pH is way too high, you need to bring that down" I know this forum is working.

 

[Dirk]

there is a type of buildup that acid won't remove

Before I got rid of my Polaris vac, it sprayed a set of my windows regularly. My stone guru guy, who knows all there is to know about chemicals used for removing such gunk, could not make a dent on the build up on the glass. We ended up abrading it off with a polishing wheel and a special compound he had (that doesn't scratch the glass).

If that hadn't've worked, I was gunna go another way:

The ring on my edge tile needed to be blasted. If I'm understanding correctly, it's not calcium, or only calcium, it's also effervescence, whatever that is. It a byproduct (maybe?) of the water evaporating off the tile just above the water line. That's why it doesn't form (or form as much) just under the water line. Perhaps our chemists can fill in the blanks.