"Recommended" ranges

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Wow, I step away for eight short hours and the thread explodes. You guys rock. :cool:

We got somewhere around an inch of rain last night. Whether it helped, hurt, or was indifferent other than being free fill water I cannot say but overall we needed it. So for this morning's numbers with the full-on test battery we have:

TA: 130
pH: 7.8
FC (DPD): 1
FC (OTO): Way more yellow than any yellow on the scale, all of which look the same to me.
CH: 275
CYA: 30

The acid/aeration seems to be doing what it is supposed to do so I'll add some more and keep aerating. It's keeping the temperature nice as well, so it doesn't feel like bathwater. I'll enjoy that while it lasts. I am a little confused about the DPD vs OTO chlorine reading, though. Maybe I need to break out the potions and powders and do the FAS test as a tie-breaker.

I have a pound of stabilizer left, which Pool Math says will take me right up to 40 on the CYA. It will also allow me to discard this mostly-empty pail of stabilizer that I need to store so it seems like a win-win to add it and put the level right on the lower end of the TFP desired range and give it room to creep up with the very occasional tablet use.

Pool Math also says a quart of bleach should take my FC from 1 to 4, though from the numbers above that assumes I actually have 1 as a current level. So far about a quart a day has been what PM says to use while 5ppm would be a 59oz add. I'll keep erring on the high side based on a desire not to deal with algae and the ability to safely swim with higher levels in the water.

In answer to a question above, I tested the fill water then I tested the pool itself when the fill was complete and got slightly different numbers. The pool itself, full of untouched tap water, was TA 150, pH 7.5, CH 250. When I took a sample out of the hose the TA was 170 and the pH 7.8.

I am happy to use CSI as they do seem very close but the CSI is on the app I'm already using and I'm all about easy. I'm going to try to keep the CSI just on the negative side of zero for scale prevention. It would be nice if a negative CSI would start to take away some of the scaling already there, but that would be too good to be true. :p

My continued appreciation for helping me get my TFP feet under me...
 
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For now, stop using anything but the FAS-DPD. Especially for dosing. Others here swear by those other tests, "just to see if there is any chlorine." OK, I won't argue that, but for me, I find no value in that. If I'm going to take the time to test my FC, why wouldn't I want to know exactly what my FC is? I can do FAS-DPD as fast as any other test. So I can then correct the FC if it is off! I digress. Point is: don't try to calculate how much chlorine to add using any test result other than FAS-DPD.

When you post FC results, we're assuming you tested with FAS-DPD (unless you indicate otherwise like you did).

If you later want to find a reason for testing some other way, for some purpose other than dosing, have at it.

Green light on all your other efforts!
 
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Just for giggles (FYI for future reference), depending on your pool's configuration and your climate, you can use rain to manipulate your chemical levels. Though not California rain! If it rains in your pool, and then just evaporates back to its normal level, then your chemical levels will be pretty much unchanged. But if you drain water, especially from below, while it is raining, then that is in essence a mini-water exchange, which will lower CYA, CH, salt and FC by some amount. And it's free! I've had some luck with that, maintaining my CH, but it doesn't rain here anymore! :(

If you have an overflow, and it happens to be the type that is a hole in the edge tile, you'll see less benefit. All pools end up saltwater pools, as chlorine, humans and acid leave salt behind as a byproduct, and it accumulates because it doesn't evaporate. The rain, being fresh water, tends to float on top of the saltwater (physics). If your overflow is on the surface, it's going to mostly drain off that fresh water goodness. My overflow taps my pool from a few feet below the surface, via an equalizer pipe, so when it rains, the added fresh water displaces my CHie/salty water out from below. It's a minimal effect, but it helps. Well, it used to, which is why this year my CH is higher than it's ever been. I've been maintaining my CSI by lowering pH. If it doesn't rain again this winter, I'll have to do a water exchange, and because my fill has high CH too, it's going to be a healthy exchange. (That's what I meant by testing your fill water as part of your maintenance strategy.)

If you have no overflow, you'd have to get into some sort of pumping or siphoning to take advantage of nature's help, if AZ is offering any, that is. May or may not be worth the effort depending on how much rain you get.
 
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This may be venturing outside the water chemistry scope of this particular forum, but some of the built-up calcium seems to have softened a bit. The Pool Store That Shall Not Be Named sold me a pumice stone several years ago to aid in the removal of the calcium. Given my current level of trust for the Pool Store, I won't even dig that thing out of the dusty box in the garage where it sits without asking the experts first, as I am inclined now to take the pool store advice and then do the opposite.

Also, we have travertine decking that has a number of stones eroding, in some cases basically crumbling, badly. We have since sealed it (see previous comment about prior owner's maintenance) but it continues to deteriorate. Will TFP chemistry vs the previous approach help to prevent further deterioration or is this going to be a thing no matter what we do? It is most pronounced near the skimmer and aerator as well as the traffic lanes where bathers drip as they exit the water.
 
We address questions about stone and decking all the time here at TFP. But if you start that topic at the end of what is now a long thread, it might not get spotted by others that can help with stone, but haven't been in your thread and won't be. What you're describing is a common issue for flagstone. Maybe you have some weak stones that are crumbling due to the extra water they are subjected to (it's water that eats at flagstone). Let's see if my stone guy has some thoughts. Oh, @mcleod, ever seen this described issue with travertine?

Alternately, Jug, you can start a new thread about the travertine, to catch others' eyes. Just link it hear so we can follow.

I don't have any thoughts about using pumice. Maybe give us the brand/name of your edge tile so we might better know what to advise. They work in my toilet! But I'm never quite sure if scratching away at the porcelain only makes the calcium adhesion come back all the worse.

I've never tried pumice on my tile, but I'm getting ready to do something about the little white line I've now got. But my edge tile is actually sliced river rock, not tile, so it wouldn't apply to you anyway. My stone guy always advises you start with the least abrasion, the weakest chemical and work your way up. He won't substitute a more aggressive solution if more elbow grease will work instead. So I'm going to try some weak acid and a nylon brush first, before I up the acid or move to steel brushes or pumice.
 
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It was just a curiosity, and a bit down the list of things to deal with at the moment. I‘ll start a new thread on it when I get closer to being able to actually deal with it but first the chemistry balance and then the SWG issue need to be resolved. I suppose at this rate I’ll be over on the SWG page asking new questions by the end of the week.

In the meantime, I may give the pumice a little trial run just to see - a proof-of-concept, if you will. I found some inactive threads on the subject that seem to indicate it is a pretty common practice, even if it is endorsed by the pool stores.
 
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Jughead said:
In the meantime, I may give the pumice a little trial run just to see
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Do you have a stone that doesn't shred? The one I use on the toilet does, it disintegrates very fast, which would end up a mess in my pool. I guess the vac would get it, but then it'd go through my pump impeller because I have a suction-side vac. Perhaps there are better stones?

Keep in mind that any scratches it might make in your tile might get hidden by the water, but show up later, attracting calcium and dirt that'll be much harder to remove next time. Maybe lower the water a bit, so you can work on a dry section, so that if the stone is scratching or dulling the tile you'll catch it. Hopefully it'll go well, and then I can steal the idea!
 
Dirk said:
Just for giggles (FYI for future reference), depending on your pool's configuration and your climate, you can use rain to manipulate your chemical levels.
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Yeah I was going to say something when the topic of rain came up earlier. I have an auto-leveler that draws from 2' down. Rain stays near the surface, so the leveler drains the "old" water. Depth average is only 4 feet with a waterfall spa that acts like an extra funnel for rain gathering. A week of thunderstorm evenings like we're having now will easily dump 2 inches. CYA and salt will decrease about 3.5% in just these few days: 100ppm of salt and 2.5 of CYA. Certainly not enormous, but something to pay attention to.

Eternal vigilance is the price of a Trouble Free Pool. I'm thinking this belongs on a T-shirt :cool:
 
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I don't know that I have an overflow or any sort of leveler...seems like other than the three days a year we get our annual rainfall it isn't really an issue. I do like the idea of pulling water from the bottom and letting the rain dilute it, though.

I do have one sort of oddball side question I forgot to ask earlier. When our pool advisor pulled us from the pool store tar pit and put us on the "two pucks a week and a gallon on Saturdays" plan he said to put the liquid in after sunset, or at least once the pool was in evening shade. Some logic about it not burning out so quickly and having more time to do what it does. Is that anything to worry about now or do I just test when I can and add what I need? If I add chlorine at high noon in the Arizona sunshine is it just a sacrifice to Helios at that point?
 

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Jughead said:
I do have one sort of oddball side question I forgot to ask earlier. When our pool advisor pulled us from the pool store tar pit and put us on the "two pucks a week and a gallon on Saturdays" plan he said to put the liquid in after sunset, or at least once the pool was in evening shade. Some logic about it not burning out so quickly and having more time to do what it does. Is that anything to worry about now or do I just test when I can and add what I need? If I add chlorine at high noon in the Arizona sunshine is it just a sacrifice to Helios at that point?
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Hmm, I've never contemplated that much. I have an SWG. It must run from about 8 to 4, so that's when the chlorine goes in. It works well that way because as the sun is burning off the chlorine, it's being replaced. Then after four the consumption starts tapering and mostly stops at night. So really my FC level is pretty stable all 24 hours, which is what you want. That way, you can run FC a little lower, because it doesn't need to be goosed once a day to make it all 24 hours. You can see that in the CYA chart, if you bounce back and forth between the Liquid Chlorine chart and SWG chart. Which is another reason we all love our SWG: less chlorine in the pool, and stable all day.

If you dose once a day, I'm not sure when the best time is to put it in. It's gotta last 24 hours, but I'm not sure when you put it in matters, because over a 24 hour period, the consumption is going to be what it's going to be. Just guessin' on that. @mknauss, does TFP have a guideline for best time of day for dispensing LC?
 
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Dirk said:
does TFP have a guideline for best time or day for dispensing LC?
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If you run the SWCG for a short period in non daylight hours, then you should be using the Liquid Chlorine FC chart, as your FC will need to be high enough to manage the decline during the daylight hours.
 
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mknauss said:
If you run the SWCG for a short period in non daylight hours, then you should be using the Liquid Chlorine FC chart, as your FC will need to be high enough to manage the decline during the daylight hours.
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I was asking about liquid chlorine, with no SWG. If he doses with LC once a day, is it best to pour in the AM? PM? Midday? Doesn't matter?
 
Thank you for the clarification on LC addition and timing. Like Forrest Gump said..."that's good...one less thing."

I'm looking hard at the SWCG route - I just took some pictures of my pump/filter/plumbing yesterday in preparation for a future post asking "where would I even put one?" I think the reduction in daily involvement using one of those would be beneficial in the long term, especially for my wife for times I'm at work. I had mentioned in another thread that my neighbor had an IC40 on a pool very similar to mine and he removed it out of sheer frustration so I guess I'd say I'm "skeptically optimistic" at this point, for lack of a better term. He said it was constantly in need of attention and loaded up with calcium to the point it almost needed weekly cleaning. I have no idea what his other numbers are, though, so I've taken it with (pardon the expression) a grain of salt.

On another note, today's numbers:

pH - 7.8
TA - 110
FC - 2.0
CYA - weak 30. It would be a solid 25 on a linear scale but I know that's not how it works.

It's encouraging to see it moving in the right direction so more keepin' on keepin' on to get it where it needs to be. Do I need to get another pail of stabilizer and work that up to a more solid number in the 40 range? We were in the pool for two hours yesterday and only seem to have lost 2.5ppm of FC, though the sunshine wasn't as brutal as a typical July day.

For the effort that I've had to put in since the drain/refill I've been extremely happy with the results so far. This site has been a godsend. It's amazing what can happen when the endgame isn't to sell you Crud you don't need. :cool:
 
Jughead said:
He said it was constantly in need of attention
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All pool equipment needs attention, even automation. There are tricks to dialing in SWG settings to minimize that attention. We'll work with you on that. Is clicking a button once a week or three "constant attention?" His expectation might have been askew. An SWG is not a genie that will magically eliminate pool chores. It's a tool that significantly reduces the labor. Like a cordless screw driver, kinda. Way less work, but ya still gotta pick it up and pull the trigger!

Jughead said:
and loaded up with calcium to the point it almost needed weekly cleaning
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I think I've cleaned mine once in five years, and then it was just a few flakes that washed off easily. Mine used to be loaded up with calcium deposits, until I took over the pool and got the CSI correct. Since then, annual inspection and sometimes spot cleaning during that inspection. That's it. We'll show you how to get there, too.

Jughead said:
Do I need to get another pail of stabilizer and work that up to a more solid number in the 40 range?
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Follow the TFP guidelines for your pool. You're on the right track. Customize your CYA number (within the TFP range) based on your pool. If FC is holding as expected, your CYA is fine. If you're losing too much chlorine each day, you either have something eating it (which you know how to diagnose, yes?), or your CYA is low and it's just burning off.

Having some stabilizer "in stock" is a good idea. It's got good shelf life. Or you can always use the pucks to add CYA and some chlorine at the same time (assuming your pucks are the CYA variety, not all are).

Until you decide about an SWG, your FC is low (and even with one, it would be). You have to design a dosing program that never allows it to drop below minimum, and as I suggested early, it's not a bad idea to make sure it never drops below the target value. Don't play with fire probing that minimum level, you'll more than likely get burned, especially in mid-summer. For now, until you're more comfortable with testing and dosing, and learn more about what your pool is doing each day, target FC6. If that doesn't hold as expected from day to day, goose your CYA. In time, you'll get to where you can start dropping that FC a point or two, if it can stay above 4 or 5 at the end of the day. Until then, play it safe. The water is very safe at FC6 for swimmers.
 
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Okay, so looking at the chart it says my FC target is 4-6 with a CYA of 30. I also recall reading that I want an absolute minimum of 7.5% of the CYA number. So, assuming a hypothetical ppm daily loss of 2.5 I should be dosing above the target to about 7.5 and letting it burn back down to it rather than dosing back up to the target every day. Am I understanding that right?

With respect to the SWCG failure across the street, I can only guess there are numerous possibilities as to why it happened. A high CSI seems a likely reason but as I said, I have no idea what his other numbers are so I can only theorize. He's also got a pool service and a tablet floater so I'm guessing he's on a road much like the one I just left.
 
Jughead said:
Okay, so looking at the chart it says my FC target is 4-6 with a CYA of 30. I also recall reading that I want an absolute minimum of 7.5% of the CYA number. So, assuming a hypothetical ppm daily loss of 2.5 I should be dosing above the target to about 7.5 and letting it burn back down to it rather than dosing back up to the target every day. Am I understanding that right?
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That's what I would do (do do), especially mid-summer.

Jughead said:
With respect to the SWCG failure across the street, I can only guess there are numerous possibilities as to why it happened. A high CSI seems a likely reason but as I said, I have no idea what his other numbers are so I can only theorize. He's also got a pool service and a tablet floater so I'm guessing he's on a road much like the one I just left.
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It is a very safe assumption that both he and his pool guy were not paying attention to CYA or CH. It's a very common tale here.
 

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