What am I dealing with? (Pics)

[mgtfp]

Am I likely to need Muriatic Acid? My PH seems to be drifting down not up currently, but I don't know what it's likely to do with so much new water.

Your pH was drifting down because of the chlorine gas injection method. The chlorination cycle (addition/generation and use of chlorine) with liquid chlorine and with SWGs is pH-neutral. pH in your new setup will be dominated by CO2 outgassing, which drives pH up. Muriatic acid will be required to control that.

To minimise CO2 outgassing, TFP recommends lower TA levels, resulting in less dissolved CO2, resulting in less outgassing.

Have a good read through TFP's Pool School to get a good understanding of what to expect with your new setup and the recommended chemistry levels.

 

[Jrobertp]

Alright so after a few more days I’m getting a feel for how things react. My CYA is hanging at 70 as expected. So I’ve been adding chlorine to get to 10 each night. I’ve done 2 OCLT in the last 4 days and both passed with a loss of only 0.5. That’s great but It’s dropping a lot during the day; down to between 5.0-6.5 each evening. That means I’m having to add between 75-110oz of 10% liquid bleach per day.

If I had lower CYA and needed a lower bleach concentration, would I be using less bleach or more with the UV loss?

My next goal was going to be to lower the TA. I understand that the ideal range is 60-80 for my pool. I was going to shoot for 70 unless advised otherwise in my particular situation.

So far walls look clear of algae (my surface is rough and stained, but I can’t see any algae and the water remains clear now when I brush the walls) The water has been crystal clear and looks great…

 

[wireform]

The FC loss you're experiencing is common enough this time of the year as other members have mentioned 4-5 ppm loss a day. The only way around this is a SWCG which would have to match the loss you incur every day. The CYA level you have is optimal and can even benefit from 80.

 

[Jrobertp]

Tonight’s numbers….

FC 6.5
CC 0.5
PH 7.8
TA 80
CH 400
CYA 60

Getting the hang of things. I’m needing a bit of acid each night, so I’m guessing that will bring down my TA to my goal of 70 soon enough. Interesting that CYA dropped. I am adding a good bit of water daily to cover the evaporation loss. But I thought that didn’t really change CYA?

Honestly didn’t realize I’d be using this much chlorine. But so be it I guess. I’m in now.

The pool does look good. Walls are still algae free So I guess I accomplished the original goal. Thanks everyone for your input and help.

 

[Bperry]

Tonight’s numbers….

FC 6.5
CC 0.5
PH 7.8
TA 80
CH 400
CYA 60

Getting the hang of things. I’m needing a bit of acid each night, so I’m guessing that will bring down my TA to my goal of 70 soon enough. Interesting that CYA dropped. I am adding a good bit of water daily to cover the evaporation loss. But I thought that didn’t really change CYA?

Honestly didn’t realize I’d be using this much chlorine. But so be it I guess. I’m in now.

The pool does look good. Walls are still algae free So I guess I accomplished the original goal. Thanks everyone for your input and help.

The CYA test has an error tolerance so don’t read too much into small differences.

 

[PoolStored]

Tonight’s numbers….

FC 6.5
CC 0.5
PH 7.8
TA 80
CH 400
CYA 60

Getting the hang of things. I’m needing a bit of acid each night, so I’m guessing that will bring down my TA to my goal of 70 soon enough. Interesting that CYA dropped. I am adding a good bit of water daily to cover the evaporation loss. But I thought that didn’t really change CYA?

Honestly didn’t realize I’d be using this much chlorine. But so be it I guess. I’m in now.

The pool does look good. Walls are still algae free So I guess I accomplished the original goal. Thanks everyone for your input and help.

If you tested CYA in low light (21 minutes ago in TX would be dark/low light), results will likely be higher. It is a turbidity test and dependent on lighting. You want a strong sunlight at your back. Quick re-read here will help…CYA - Cyanuric Acid Test

 

[HermanTX]

Tonight’s numbers….

FC 6.5
CC 0.5
PH 7.8
TA 80
CH 400
CYA 60

Getting the hang of things. I’m needing a bit of acid each night, so I’m guessing that will bring down my TA to my goal of 70 soon enough. Interesting that CYA dropped. I am adding a good bit of water daily to cover the evaporation loss. But I thought that didn’t really change CYA?

Honestly didn’t realize I’d be using this much chlorine. But so be it I guess. I’m in now.

The pool does look good. Walls are still algae free So I guess I accomplished the original goal. Thanks everyone for your input and help.

If your CYA is 60 you really should target 7-9 ppm FC. That will keep you safe and algae free. If you test your CYA again and it is 70 then that range moves up to 8-10. Keep LC on hand because in this heat there is still UV consumption - even with a CYA of 70 - but the higher CYA does help you - you still need to maintain the FC in the target ranges for CYA levels.

Your TA does not move as quickly with MA as does your pH but continue to monitor it. Also, some pools settle out at different TA levels. yours may like 80ppm. My pool stays pretty consistent at 70 even though I add MA as you do. I have a small overflow from my spa to pool - it is constant - so that pushes the pH up and the MA pushes it down and it stays at 70. This is some things you will learn with your pool as you continue to test and monitor changes.
Everything looks great (assuming you push the FC up to the target ranges) so you are well on your way. Good Luck.

 

[Jrobertp]

If your CYA is 60 you really should target 7-9 ppm FC. That will keep you safe and algae free. If you test your CYA again and it is 70 then that range moves up to 8-10. Keep LC on hand because in this heat there is still UV consumption - even with a CYA of 70 - but the higher CYA does help you - you still need to maintain the FC in the target ranges for CYA levels.

I‘ve been bringing the chlorine up to 10 ppm each night… so these were my numbers before I added nightly chemicals. My FC number has been dropping between 3.5 - 4.5ppm in 24 hrs…

 

[Jrobertp]

If you tested CYA in low light (21 minutes ago in TX would be dark/low light), results will likely be lower. It is a turbidity test and dependent on lighting. You want a strong sunlight at your back. Quick re-read here will help…CYA - Cyanuric Acid Test

I did a retest of CYA in the sun today. So what is the correct positioning? If the sun is at my back but the tube is in the shade of my body I get a reading of 70. If the tube is positioned out of the shade in the light of the sun the reading is 60.

 

[PoolStored]

I did a retest of CYA in the sun today. So what is the correct positioning? If the sun is at my back but the tube is in the shade of my body I get a reading of 70. If the tube is positioned out of the shade in the light of the sun the reading is 60.

Nice! 70 would be correct.

So at 70, you don't want to let your pool get to 5 (minimum). My pool will cloud if I let it get to minimum. Best to keep it in target range for 70, for you that is 8-10. If you lose 4.5 in 24 hours, I would raise your target and replenish to 11 every night. This will keep you above 6 on strong FC demand days.

I printed this out and used it for the first couple months of testing until I got the hang of it..

CYA - Cyanuric Acid Test

Cyanuric Acid (CYA) is the chemical name for what is commonly referred to as Stabilizer … Read more…

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Jrobertp]

Nice! 70 would be correct.

So at 70, you don't want to let your pool get to 5 (minimum). My pool will cloud if I let it get to minimum. Best to keep it in target range for 70, for you that is 8-10. If you lose 4.5 in 24 hours, I would raise your target and replenish to 11 every night. This will keep you above 6 on strong FC demand days.

I printed this out and used it for the first couple months of testing until I got the hang of it..

CYA - Cyanuric Acid Test

Cyanuric Acid (CYA) is the chemical name for what is commonly referred to as Stabilizer … Read more…

www.troublefreepool.com

I don’t mind trying 11 ppm, but I’m not sure it’s necessary. I’ve been adding to get to 10 ppm each night, pool is acting really well with that, crystal clear, no sign of algae. The lowest it’s dropped in a day is to 5.5, but most days seem to be ending at 6.5 before I add chlorine at night…

 

[PoolStored]

The lowest it’s dropped in a day is to 5.5

Too close for my comfort, but maybe not yours. If you do get a demand day that exceeds the 4.5 you will be super close algae territory (I'm in Ohio and have had 5.5 loss in a day). If my pool sniffs minimum, it will get a liiiiiitle bit cloudy, then it will bloom. If you are going to go with 10, then I would test during the day if you have swimmers, as they add additional demand. You can test and add during swimming.

 

[SoDel]

I don’t mind trying 11 ppm, but I’m not sure it’s necessary. I’ve been adding to get to 10 ppm each night, pool is acting really well with that, crystal clear, no sign of algae. The lowest it’s dropped in a day is to 5.5, but most days seem to be ending at 6.5 before I add chlorine at night…

As a perspective experience, go over to the algae subforum and spend a half hour reading those threads. It will save you many, many hours, days, weeks, of work. If @PoolStored says your FC is riding the ragged edge, I’d be inclined to listen (IMHO, FC at 12% of CYA is the floor below which algae can survive and multiply at pH not atypical in a pool — not an endorsed TFP guideline). Algae multiplies exponentially. In hyper-technical terms, bad. An FC of 5.5 at CYA 70, bad. A little homework may show that FC below 7.5% of CYA is really bad. IMHO, you are getting very close to really bad.

 

[PoolStored]

@Jrobertp To be clear, what you are doing and your thinking are SPOT on. Know your pool and its FC demand. Dose your pool at least daily to maintain FC above minimum. Full Stop.

You have a month of managing the pool under your belt, and I think you will likely be ok with your method, as it is sound. I'm suggesting that until you have more time to learn your pool to keep it 1ppm higher and collect a bit more data.

Some of us don't want to do that, or some of us don't want to dose daily, so some have installed Stenner pumps or SWCG to dose constantly and maintain a fairly steady, lower FC, avoiding the highs and lows of daily manual dosing.

You've done a great job cleaning up your pool and taking control. You should be proud. Even if you decide to stay with 10, since you are testing daily, you will catch a high demand day and correct it quickly.

 

[Jrobertp]

Thanks all. I’m definitely new to this, and I appreciate you taking time to help me figure it all out. My target FC was derived from the CYA chart saying 8-10 was the target and minimum was 5. I didn’t know how much it would be losing per day, but I can see how there could be a day that would cause me to drop below a tolerable amount and have a problem.

I’ll try running it up to 11 each night this week and see what my daily loss looks like.

For context what caused me to take over managing my pool chemicals was to solve an ongoing algae problem that has been a challenge for the last couple of years. This process is for sure going to be more expensive and take a lot more of my time, but the pool company process just couldn’t solve the problem by only adding chemicals once a week.

Who knows why, but my pool has never developed green water. Even for all the year the pool lived well below the minimum amt of FC for multiple days a week. What was happening was algae growth on my rough walls. So that’s what I’m keeping a close eye on.

I’m sure I’ll have a chlorine pump or SWCG in the future.

 

[HermanTX]

Thanks all. I’m definitely new to this, and I appreciate you taking time to help me figure it all out. My target FC was derived from the CYA chart saying 8-10 was the target and minimum was 5. I didn’t know how much it would be losing per day, but I can see how there could be a day that would cause me to drop below a tolerable amount and have a problem.

I’ll try running it up to 11 each night this week and see what my daily loss looks like.

For context what caused me to take over managing my pool chemicals was to solve an ongoing algae problem that has been a challenge for the last couple of years. This process is for sure going to be more expensive and take a lot more of my time, but the pool company process just couldn’t solve the problem by only adding chemicals once a week.

Who knows why, but my pool has never developed green water. Even for all the year the pool lived well below the minimum amt of FC for multiple days a week. What was happening was algae growth on my rough walls. So that’s what I’m keeping a close eye on.

I’m sure I’ll have a chlorine pump or SWCG in the future.

Every pool is different and definitely living on the edge with weekly service. I think you find the cost to maintain it yourself will be less than the weekly pool service. Obviously, LC has gone up in price but still more reasonable than trichlor pucks. I buy from WalMart and from Pinch a Penny. PaP is cheaper and most likely fresher but I just purchased some yesterday at local WalMart that had mfg. date of July 2 so just 2 weeks old. Not sure if a PaP store has made it up to your area.

 

[Lilypad]

A few Pinch A Penny locations have opened in DFW. @Jrobertp there's one in NRH on North Tarrant Pkwy.
You pay a deposit for a 2.5 gallon carboy and they fill/refill with 12.5% for a decent price. And as @HermanTX said, Walmart is a good bet, as well as Home Depot or Lowe's. Check the dates on the bottle and it’s best if they keep it
stored indoors. Walmart does this more often than the other big box stores.

 

[RickRude]

@Jrobertp check out the link in my signature for sources of liquid chlorine here in DFW. A-Quality pools in N Richland Hills might be your best bet.

Such an interesting thread. I was in a similar situation to you just a couple months ago as far as debating whether to fire a pool service that simple wasn't effective. I'm now at a point where FC demand has more-or-less stabilized at about 2 ppm/day with a CYA of 70. It had been closer to 4 ppm/day, but at that time I was working with a CYA of 90. Once I re-tested my CYA and set a lower target for FC, the daily demand slowed. SWG is at the top of my wishlist.

 

[Jrobertp]

Thanks to all the the helpful folks on this forum. Sure makes it easier to get things figured out.

At this point I’m mostly updating the results because when I was searching you come across lots of threads that start out but you never know how things finished up.…. It is still nice to hear advice from the folks that have things figured out so feel free to chime in.

I am not seeing my alkalinity come down below 80, and I’m adding acid every day or two to bring the PH down. Since I know I’m adding a lot of water right now to cover the crazy evaporation. (It’s well above 100° here and hasn’t rained in a long time, plus I use an aerator all the time in the summer to help lower my water temp) I decided to test my tap water. Turns out it has a PH 8.2 and alkalinity of 110. I’m not sure I’ll be able to get the alkalinity to settle in at 70 till I’m adding less water. But it does seem to hold at 80 with the acid I’m adding to bring the PH down to 7.5 every time it hits 7.8 (FYI I’ve done a bucket test, and I don’t have a leak)

So far bumping my FC up to 12 ppm each night isn’t causing more FC loss to UV. Still averaging 4.5 ppm loss per day, which in my case means adding ~ 98oz of liquid chlorine nightly.

Thanks for the chlorine suggestions! So far almost all my chlorine (10%) was purchased at Walmart for $4.97 a gallon. It’s quick and easy to get there, plus they keep it inside. Home Depot is slightly cheaper when purchasing a box of 4 gallons, but they store it outside and it’s older stock… looked at your chart @RickRude and it seems that may be the best I can do for now…

For those keeping score at home that’s ~ $115 a month for chlorine.

I do think I‘ll be saving a little money on power since I’m trying out shorter pump run times now after switching to the TFP plan…
I did not make the switch to save money. So not a big deal, but I will be looking for ways to lessen my personal time spent on pool chemical maintenance.

 

[SoDel]

. . . For those keeping score at home that’s ~ $115 a month for chlorine.
. . .
. . . I will be looking for ways to lessen my personal time spent on pool chemical maintenance.

Is it time for you to explore adding a SWG?