Whole house power question

[pgershon]

JamesW Basement light voltage 104.2 with pump running on first measure. 105.5 voltage on second measure as I am waiting for pump to stop (it does a 15 min delay because pool heater was on). 104.7-104.8 on third measure, now with motor off. Turned pump on while monitoring voltage in basement and it had no effect whatsoever. I will check the pool house voltages later today to see the 240 volt side.

But two observations in my basement: (1) motor on/off does not have an obvious immediate effect on voltage in basement; and (2) there is voltage fluctuation in the basement, at least between 104.2 and 105.5 volts on 110 line. I should add that these measurements were all done while the clothing washer was on (and it has its own motor). I can collect readings tomorrow with washer off. Lights seem to blink less today while washer is running (if at all - I have not seen a blink yet today).

 

[JamesW]

Basement light voltage 104.2 with pump running on first measure.

That’s too low.

The breaker panel has 2 hot legs coming in and a neutral.

The 2 hot legs should measure about 230 to 240 between the two hot legs.

The voltage between either hot leg and neutral should be about 115 to 120 volts.

The voltage between hot leg “A” and neutral should be the same as the voltage between hot leg “B” and neutral and both should be half of the voltage between the two hot legs.

For example, if the voltage between the two hot legs is 236 volts, the voltage between hot leg “A” and neutral should be 118 volts and the voltage between hot leg “B” and neutral should be 118 volts.

Roughly half of your 120 volt appliances should be on hot leg “A” and half should be on hot leg “B”.

If the neutral to the power company is missing or weak, the 120 appliances no longer operate on a 120 volt supply, they operate as 120 volt appliances in series on a 240 volt supply, which divides the voltage according to the amount of amperage on each hot leg.

For example, if the voltage between the two hot legs is 236 volts, the voltage between hot leg “A” and neutral and between hot leg “B” and neutral will be split unevenly.

In your example of 104.2 volts (on hot leg “A”), if the if the voltage between the two hot legs is 236 volts, the voltage between hot leg “B” and neutral would be 131.8.

So, if you can check a 120 appliance on hot leg “B”, you can see if the voltage is the same as voltage between hot leg “A” and neutral or if it is higher or lower.

If you find the voltage is different on different legs and not half of the total voltage, you have a bad neutral.

 

[JamesW]

 

[JamesW]

 

[pgershon]

Is it worth the exercise to open my breakers and check the voltage across various legs? Might the washer dryer on top of everything else be causing lower power?

 

[JamesW]

Is it worth the exercise to open my breakers and check the voltage across various legs? Might the washer dryer on top of everything else be causing lower power?

It depends on how comfortable you are working with electricity.

Only do what you know you can do safely.

 

[Newdude]

OK you perked me right up with the washing machine piece of the puzzle. I have been chasing a LED flicker around my house that we moved to for 19 months and just a week or two ago I happened to be gazing at one flickering at the moment the Mrs shut off the washing machine and the flicker stopped. I immediately made it start/stop again to prove it to the washing machine / outlet / leg ( 1.5 year old Samsung). I need to pull it to investigate further and i haven't gotten there yet.

 

[JamesW]

Check the circuit breaker contact points.

Remove the circuit breaker if you feel comfortable doing that and see if the contacts are clean.

 

[PoolGate]

I think when you run a 220 volt appliance you connect the 2 legs of your service. So if you have a powerline adapter on one leg (110 volts) it will work on the other if a 220 volt appliance is running (but only while it is running).

 

[JamesW]

I think when you run a 220 volt appliance you connect the 2 legs of your service. So if you have a powerline adapter on one leg (110 volts) it will work on the other if a 220 volt appliance is running (but only while it is running).

Can you explain this better?

 

[JamesW]

Is it worth the exercise to open my breakers and check the voltage across various legs?

Check from hot "A" to hot "B" and then from Hot "A" to Neutral and hot "B" to neutral.

 

[PoolGate]

Can you explain this better?

I think it works this way. The 2 phases of electric that come into your house are separate until you run a 220 volt appliance. Then they are connected for things like PowerLine adapters which use your house electrical to work. Not sure what else would be affected by running a 220 volt appliance. But I have heard of instances when issues in a house's electrical service were only evident when a 220 volt appliance was running.

 

[JamesW]

think it works this way. The 2 phases of electric that come into your house are separate until you run a 220 volt appliance. Then they are connected for things like PowerLine adapters which use your house electrical to work.

Does the OP have a powerline adapter?

Can you give an example of a Powerline adapter?

I still don't understand what you are talking about.

 

[ajw22]

Does the OP have a powerline adapter?

Yes, he said he is using Insteon devices.

Can you give an example of a Powerline adapter?

Products — Insteon

View the Family of Insteon Smart Home Products From automating lights and appliances to sensing motion and water leaks, there's an Insteon device to fit your need. Whether you want to monitor a studio apartment or control a multi-winged mansion, Insteon will grow with your home.

www.insteon.com

I still don't understand what you are talking about.

Technology — Insteon

www.insteon.com

Insteon is the only home control technology that uses both wireless and your home's powerlines to create a robust network that can easily handle common household interference from microwaves and WiFi or signal blockades like concrete, masonry or steel studs.

 

[PoolGate]

Does the OP have a powerline adapter?

Can you give an example of a Powerline adapter?

I still don't understand what you are talking about.

It is somewhat of a tangent. A PowerLine adapter provides ethernet over power lines within your house. 2 PowerLine adapters are needed to make a connection. PowerLine users have on occasion had issues when PowerLine adapter "1" is on one phase of power and PowerLine adapter "2" is on another.

I thought about this because the OP said this:

The VS pump went in in 2011 and I noticed issues with Insteon (power line) signals a few years later, only when pool pump is running.

 

[ajw22]

Insteaon sold Phase Couplers like this that bridge the two 120V legs to relay their signal from one 120V leg to the other.

Phase Coupler - Quick Start Guide — Insteon

Download PDF

www.insteon.com

 

[pgershon]

The insteon sends signals along the powerline, similar to X10 technology, but one step more advanced. There is occasionally an issue with signals passing from Leg A to Leg B and and certain powerline boosters were sold to correct that problem, although in later years insteon began broadcasting an RF signal as well to boost the powerline and assure better A/B connectivity. It is not ethernet. Ethernet over COAX is MoCA technology, and I dont know of ethernet over powerline (but it could be possible, just not here).

I have read that VS pumps cause EMI noise that travels long distances over powerline, that the noise can be filtered out if you can identify the frequency, and that running high current 220V appliances can deaden the effect of the noise. I have suspected this is my problem for years and tried various filters, never with great success.

Having said all that, my voltage in the basement on the lights I tested was too low. I need to investigate more which I will do today and/or tomorrow and report back. Thanks to all who are contributing.

 

[JamesW]

OK, but the LEDs are not on Powerline.

The voltage is too low, which indicates a problem with the power supply or the neutrals or maybe a breaker or a switch is going bad or maybe bad wiring.

What switch is used to turn the LEDs on and off?

Are the LEDs on a dimmer switch?

 

[ajw22]

I have Insteon (power line) automation on my light switches and used to on my sprinklers (I switched in large part because of this issue). When the pool pump is on, noise from it interferes with the Insteon power line signals. Its an intermittent problem, just like the basement light bulbs.

From post #6.

 

[pgershon]

Insteaon sold Phase Couplers like this that bridge the two 120V legs to relay their signal from one 120V leg to the other.

While I had used these in the past, as the technology got better and my number of units with RF increased, they became unnecessary. As an aside, my other home in NYC has three phase current and I do not have the isteon travel. All my NYC insteon devices are on the same phase throughout the house.