16 July 2024 Finishing Up my OB Pool

[Dirk]

Let's see if I can stump you!

First thing I did when I moved in was to run Cat 6 to every room and garage, for ethernet (I hate WiFi). But a few years later I had to do it again for video. Can't run too much Cat and it's cheap compared to doing it later. You want to be able to run POE through the Cat, so it should be rated for that.

If you like WiFi, you should still run Cat to a few locations, so that you can hardwire multiple WiFi boosters (or whatever they're called) to get excellent coverage in all rooms, and by the pool.

Have you given any thought to home automation? At a minimum you want every box with a switch in it to have 120V. All three: hot, neutral and ground. That might be code now, I'm not sure, but some electricians will run the 120 to the light fixture, and then just wire from there to the switch. They might do that with three-way switches, too, so that you don't actually have hot, neutral and ground in each box. Many HA switches need all three legs.

All my bath plugs are on the same GFI, in my master bath. Another electrician cost-cutter. But if I wanted to let guests use my house, but not have access to my master, and they blew the GFI, they'd be stuck. I'd want a dedicated GFI in each bath.

I have a keyed lock on my master bedroom door. For security and privacy. In my last house, I also had a solid-core (exterior type) door on my master with a full-on dead bolt. My half-baked version of a safe-room, but better than a hollow-core with a "privacy" lock. At least it'll give me a few extra seconds to "get ready" if ya know what I mean.

I had to fudge power to my wall-mounted HA controller (which is just an iPad). I'd have installed something to accommodate the iPad's wall wart (hidden).

And I had to go up again to the attic to run the comm wires for an indoor controller for my pool automation controller. I really like having that inside, and hardwired. The HA controller, pool indoor remote and HVAC control are all next to each other. Kind'a my "control center."

I had to re-run the seven-wire irrigation controller cable when I added a seventh irrigation circuit, then an eighth! Don't chince on the number of conductors in that cable, ya never know.

Then, I had to go up AGAIN to run a wire from the door bell to the backyard, to have a second door bell out there. I couldn't hear it while at the pool, so I have a need for two. I even put the outdoor one on a wall switch, so I could turn it on and off for pool season (no reason to disturb the neighbors otherwise).

Speaker wire, of course, that was another trip, from where my receiver is to the surround speakers in the ceiling of my "media room" (otherwise known as my living room!). I installed boxes in the attic filled with fiberglass around the speakers to give them a little extra oomph, and to keep the blown-in insulation away from the speaker cones.

I have yet more Cat 6 wire running from my computer to each of my TVs. That computer is my "media" server. I have gizmos that can both convert HDMI (from the computer) to Cat, and split it, to run to multiple locations, then there is a second converter to go from Cat back to HDMI. It's how I distribute HDMI media long-distance to multiple TVs. Seriously, you can't run too much Cat.

I later ran even more Cat, as part of my whole house (and pool) hard-wired temperature sensing system (I've yet to write that up here), but it's part of my HA system and it's great to have 24-hour temperature readings from my pool (not just when the pump is running).

My house is short on outdoor hose bibs (on their own circuit separate from the soft water circuit). I can't fix that, but I wish I had a bibb (or two) on every exterior wall. Those should be sourced from before the house pressure regulator, so that the bibbs have full pressure.

There should be a whole house back flow preventer. Those might be required some day. Much easier to install one during construction.

I did manage to add one outdoor hose bibb that is on my soft water circuit. That line feeds my pool's auto fill (to keep CH in check). And the hose bibb is for washing cars and my PV solar panels.

I also wish the hot water line to at least my master bath sink was 3/8" or even 1/4", to get the hot water there faster. I don't need full pressure at my sink. I can't brush my teeth with cold water, and I waste a lot waiting for the water to get warm. I may install a dedicated mini hot water heater under my master bath sink, but I'll have to run 120 for an outlet under there. So I wish I had both of those solutions in place (the small water line and 120 under the sink).

Cat 5 or 6 to the pool pad (for automation).

Speaker wire into the garden for outdoor sound system.

Extra empty conduit throughout the landscaping, for future runs of whatever.

GFI 120 everywhere in the landscaping, switched. I have one circuit each for: fountain, bug zapper, garden lights, bistro lights and two citrus tree heaters!

Handy switched outlet for Christmas lights (like maybe under the eves). No electrician ever thinks of that!

Low-voltage lighting around the pool.

I could go on!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Let's see if I can stump you!

First thing I did when I moved in was to run Cat 6 to every room and garage, for ethernet (I hate WiFi). But a few years later I had to do it again for video. Can't run too much Cat and it's cheap compared to doing it later. You want to be able to run POE through the Cat, so it should be rated for that.

If you like WiFi, you should still run Cat to a few locations, so that you can hardwire multiple WiFi boosters (or whatever they're called) to get excellent coverage in all rooms, and by the pool.

Have you given any thought to home automation? At a minimum you want every box with a switch in it to have 120V. All three: hot, neutral and ground. That might be code now, I'm not sure, but some electricians will run the 120 to the light fixture, and then just wire from there to the switch. They might do that with three-way switches, too, so that you don't actually have hot, neutral and ground in each box. Many HA switches need all three legs.

All my bath plugs are on the same GFI, in my master bath. Another electrician cost-cutter. But if I wanted to let guests use my house, but not have access to my master, and they blew the GFI, they'd be stuck. I'd want a dedicated GFI in each bath.

I have a keyed lock on my master bedroom door. For security and privacy. In my last house, I also had a solid-core (exterior type) door on my master. My half-baked version of a safe-room, but better than a hollow-core with a "privacy" lock. At least it'll give me a few extra seconds to "get ready" if ya know what I mean.

I had to fudge power to my wall-mounted HA controller (which is just an iPad). I'd have installed something to accommodate the iPad's wall wart (hidden).

And I had to go up again to the attic to run the comm wires for an indoor controller for my pool automation controller. I really like having that inside, and hardwired. The HA controller, pool indoor remote and HVAC control are all next to each other. Kind'a my "control center."

I had to re-run the seven-wire irrigation control wiring when I added a seventh irrigation circuit, then an eighth! Don't chince on the number of conductors in that cable, ya never know.

Then, I had to go up AGAIN to run a wire from the door bell to the backyard, to have a second door bell out there. I couldn't hear it while at the pool, so I have a need for two. I even put the outdoor one on a wall switch, so I could turn it on and off for pool season (no reason to disturb the neighbors otherwise).

Speaker wire, of course, that was another trip, from where my receiver is to the surround speakers in the ceiling of my "media room" (otherwise known as my living room!). I installed boxes in the attic filled with fiberglass around the speakers to give them a little extra oomph, and to keep the blown-in insulation away from the speaker cones.

I have yet more Cat 6 wire running from my computer to each of my TVs. That computer is my "media" server. There are. gizmos that can both convert HDMI (from the computer) to Cat, and split it, to run to multiple locations, then there is a second converter to go from Cat back to HDMI. It's how I distribute media long-distance to multiple TVs. Seriously, you can't run too much Cat.

My house os short on outdoor hose bibs (on their own circuit separate from the soft water circuit). I can't fix that, but I wish I had a bibb (or two) on every exterior wall. Those should be sourced from before the house pressure regulator, so that the bibbs have full pressure.

There should be a whole house back flow preventer. Those might be required some day. Much easier to install one during construction.

I did manage to add one outdoor hose bibb that is on my soft water circuit. That line feeds my pool's auto fill (to keep CH in check). And the hose bibb is for washing cars and my PV solar panels.

I also wish the hot water line to at least my master bath sink was 3/8" or even 1/4", to get the hot water there faster. I don't need full pressure at my sink. I can't brush my teeth with cold water, and I waste a lot waiting for the water to get warm. I may install a dedicated mini hot water heater under my master bath sink, but I'll have to run 120 for an outlet under there. So I wish I had both of those solutions in place (the small water line and 120 under the sink).

Cat 5 or 6 to the pool pad (for automation).

Speaker wire into the garden for outdoor sound system.

Extra empty conduit throughout the landscaping, for future runs of whatever.

GFI 120 everywhere in the landscaping, switched. I have one circuit each for: fountain, bug zapper, garden lights, bistro lights and two citrus tree heaters!

Handy switched outlet for Christmas lights (like maybe under the eves). No electrician ever thinks of that!

Low-voltage lighting around the pool.

I could go on!

TLDR Version of Dirk’s post - his house has more copper built into than the US Mint on penny stamping day ….

 

[JamesW]

TLDR Version of Dirk’s post - his house has more copper built into than the US Mint on penny stamping day ….

Assuming 0.0625 grams of copper per cent and 10 billion cents made per year, the total amount of copper per year used is about 1,377,890 lbs per year.

There are today four United States mints: Philadelphia, Denver, San Francisco, and West Point.

If each make the same number of cents per day, the total copper used per day is about 1,325 lbs of copper per day at a single mint working 5 days a week.

Penny | U.S. Mint

Learn more about the Lincoln penny, the U.S.'s one-cent circulating coin. The "Union Shield" reverse was first issued in 2010.

www.usmint.gov

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Assuming 0.0625 grams of copper per cent and 10 billion cents made per year, the total amount of copper per year used is about 1,377,890 lbs per year.

There are today four United States mints: Philadelphia, Denver, San Francisco, and West Point.

If each make the same number of cents per day, the total copper used per day is about 1,325 lbs of copper per day at a single mint working 5 days a week.

Penny | U.S. Mint

Learn more about the Lincoln penny, the U.S.'s one-cent circulating coin. The "Union Shield" reverse was first issued in 2010.

www.usmint.gov

... sounds about right for @Dirk 's house ....

 

[Dirk]

I'm estimating about 40 wires/cables I've run up in the attic. And of course the point was: instead of the week or two I've spent up there, I could have run all those in one ambitious afternoon had I had a chance to during construction! Now's the time Chris! Keep runnin' cables until Matt makes fun of you, then you'll know you have enough!!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I'm estimating about 40 wires/cables I've run up in the attic. And of course the point was: instead of the week or two I've spent up there, I could have run all those in one ambitious afternoon had I had a chance to during construction! Now's the time Chris! Keep runnin' cables until Matt makes fun of you, then you'll know you have enough!!

Your home is essentially a giant Faraday cage ... the gubermint mind control radio waves will never get to you ....

 

[JamesW]

Faraday cage

I wonder why they had to keep him in a cage?

Whatever it was, we might never know because he was never “charged”.

 

[setsailsoon]

Too funny! Ironically I was reading Dirks post above and trying to figure out if I need 500' or 1000 ft of cat 5. There are rules of thumb based on sq ft of ac space that I've found pretty close for 12 and 14 ga romex... Don't think we know that for cat 5 or 6... also the truss designer ran cases for normal gravity loads plus impact of wind. Don't think he allowed for additional weight of all that copper.

 

[setsailsoon]

Let's see if I can stump you!

First thing I did when I moved in was to run Cat 6 to every room and garage, for ethernet (I hate WiFi). But a few years later I had to do it again for video. Can't run too much Cat and it's cheap compared to doing it later. You want to be able to run POE through the Cat, so it should be rated for that.

If you like WiFi, you should still run Cat to a few locations, so that you can hardwire multiple WiFi boosters (or whatever they're called) to get excellent coverage in all rooms, and by the pool.

Have you given any thought to home automation? At a minimum you want every box with a switch in it to have 120V. All three: hot, neutral and ground. That might be code now, I'm not sure, but some electricians will run the 120 to the light fixture, and then just wire from there to the switch. They might do that with three-way switches, too, so that you don't actually have hot, neutral and ground in each box. Many HA switches need all three legs.

All my bath plugs are on the same GFI, in my master bath. Another electrician cost-cutter. But if I wanted to let guests use my house, but not have access to my master, and they blew the GFI, they'd be stuck. I'd want a dedicated GFI in each bath.

I have a keyed lock on my master bedroom door. For security and privacy. In my last house, I also had a solid-core (exterior type) door on my master with a full-on dead bolt. My half-baked version of a safe-room, but better than a hollow-core with a "privacy" lock. At least it'll give me a few extra seconds to "get ready" if ya know what I mean.

I had to fudge power to my wall-mounted HA controller (which is just an iPad). I'd have installed something to accommodate the iPad's wall wart (hidden).

And I had to go up again to the attic to run the comm wires for an indoor controller for my pool automation controller. I really like having that inside, and hardwired. The HA controller, pool indoor remote and HVAC control are all next to each other. Kind'a my "control center."

I had to re-run the seven-wire irrigation controller cable when I added a seventh irrigation circuit, then an eighth! Don't chince on the number of conductors in that cable, ya never know.

Then, I had to go up AGAIN to run a wire from the door bell to the backyard, to have a second door bell out there. I couldn't hear it while at the pool, so I have a need for two. I even put the outdoor one on a wall switch, so I could turn it on and off for pool season (no reason to disturb the neighbors otherwise).

Speaker wire, of course, that was another trip, from where my receiver is to the surround speakers in the ceiling of my "media room" (otherwise known as my living room!). I installed boxes in the attic filled with fiberglass around the speakers to give them a little extra oomph, and to keep the blown-in insulation away from the speaker cones.

I have yet more Cat 6 wire running from my computer to each of my TVs. That computer is my "media" server. I have gizmos that can both convert HDMI (from the computer) to Cat, and split it, to run to multiple locations, then there is a second converter to go from Cat back to HDMI. It's how I distribute HDMI media long-distance to multiple TVs. Seriously, you can't run too much Cat.

I later ran even more Cat, as part of my whole house (and pool) hard-wired temperature sensing system (I've yet to write that up here), but it's part of my HA system and it's great to have 24-hour temperature readings from my pool (not just when the pump is running).

My house is short on outdoor hose bibs (on their own circuit separate from the soft water circuit). I can't fix that, but I wish I had a bibb (or two) on every exterior wall. Those should be sourced from before the house pressure regulator, so that the bibbs have full pressure.

There should be a whole house back flow preventer. Those might be required some day. Much easier to install one during construction.

I did manage to add one outdoor hose bibb that is on my soft water circuit. That line feeds my pool's auto fill (to keep CH in check). And the hose bibb is for washing cars and my PV solar panels.

I also wish the hot water line to at least my master bath sink was 3/8" or even 1/4", to get the hot water there faster. I don't need full pressure at my sink. I can't brush my teeth with cold water, and I waste a lot waiting for the water to get warm. I may install a dedicated mini hot water heater under my master bath sink, but I'll have to run 120 for an outlet under there. So I wish I had both of those solutions in place (the small water line and 120 under the sink).

Cat 5 or 6 to the pool pad (for automation).

Speaker wire into the garden for outdoor sound system.

Extra empty conduit throughout the landscaping, for future runs of whatever.

GFI 120 everywhere in the landscaping, switched. I have one circuit each for: fountain, bug zapper, garden lights, bistro lights and two citrus tree heaters!
.
Handy switched outlet for Christmas lights (like maybe under the eves). No electrician ever thinks of that!

Low-voltage lighting around the pool.

I could go on!

Wow. Cat 5 or is it 6 or hose bibs, water lines, gfi, bistros. I'm afraid to say I'm not stumped or you may throw more at me!!! My head is definitely spinning... now James is piling on from Matt. The 3 of you are too much... aaaaaahhhhhhhh!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You should really use CAT7/CAT8 cable … with all platinum-cobalt contacts for enhanced corrosion resistance….

 

[Dirk]

Too funny! Ironically I was reading Dirks post above and trying to figure out if I need 500' or 1000 ft of cat 5. There are rules of thumb based on sq ft of ac space that I've found pretty close for 12 and 14 ga romex... Don't think we know that for cat 5 or 6... also the truss designer ran cases for normal gravity loads plus impact of wind. Don't think he allowed for additional weight of all that copper.

I know I've run more than 1000'. My house is about 100' long, so it has less to do with sq ft and more to do with the length of the attic. I did some runs where I did the termination, but many others with ready-made ends, from Monoprice (they have amazing prices). Some of what I ran was direct burial. I'm not 100% certain I got all the fire code stuff right. And some special cables were required for the HDMI-over-Cat signals.

The Monoprice cables I could order in colors, and lengths, so that helped with the organization. I run a star topography, with one central hub that stars to four other stars. It sounds crazy, I know, and would be if I thought about ordering it all at once and installing it all now, but this evolved over two houses and, I dunno, 20+ years. I just kept adding a cable here, a switch there. Plus, more and more gear wants to be online now, like TVs and Blue-Ray players, ScreenLogic, etc. It's not all on me!!

I think it all became self-aware around 2013. Not sure. We tend to keep to ourselves. I try not to p--s it off.

 

[Dirk]

You should really use CAT7/CAT8 cable … with all platinum-cobalt contacts for enhanced corrosion resistance….

I actually don't know if you're kidding or not. I peeked at Cat 7, I think, and settled on Cat 6. I don't now remember why. I knew at the time, and know, I'll probably lament the choice at some point, you know, when they approve 1,000,000 Gigabit Ethernet or whatever they'll get to someday, for 128K TVs! I'm not too worried, even with glasses I can't tell the difference between 720P DVDs and 4K Netflix movies from across my living room, so Cat 6 will probably outlast me...

 

[Turbo1Ton]

I have ran more than 1000' of CAT6 in my house. I'm almost the same situation as Dirk. I have a very long house, about 100' north to south ends. 1 drop to each of the 3 bedrooms, 3 drops + a drop for a TV in the office, 1 drop to the living room, 1 drop on the back patio, 2 drops at my pool pad, 1 each for my 7 security cameras, and I think that about covers it. So 18 drops total so far. I still want to add 2 more, 1 to the garage, and one to my front courtyard.

One thing I will say is I would strongly consider adding several 2"-3" conduits between wherever your network equipment is going and the longest runs in the attic of your house. I installed 1-1/4" conduit the 40' run in my attic after the fact, and it makes pulling more cable almost fun. I don't have to crawl around in the attic much. Get in one end to start the cable, use the pull cord at the other end. Easy peasy.

--Jeff

 

[Newdude]

If you like WiFi, you should still run Cat to a few locations, so that you can hardwire multiple WiFi boosters (or whatever they're called) to get excellent coverage in all rooms, and by the pool.

This. So much this. The cell carriers and satellite companies are in a 9(?) way race to be able to beam you next gen home internet over the air.

All that concrete will be great for hurricanes, but will deflect the signals both from the sky, and from the living room to the kitchen/pool/garage.

1000 ft boxes of Cat6e are about $100. Get 2 and home run the whole house/pool to one location.

 

[Dirk]

I have ran more than 1000' of CAT6 in my house.

1000 ft boxes of Cat6e

I know I've run more than 1000'

The 1000' Club! We're still accepting membership, Chris...

 

[setsailsoon]

OK another pump question. In general, I think there's pretty good agreement the Pentair VS pump is the best one on the market. My design company has an arrangement with Hayward that gives me access to preferred pricing and warranty. What do you all think about the Tristar VS 950? It's 2.7 hp and has built in RS 485 control plus digital input (with 3 inputs all standard 18-30 vac or 9-30dc) for control of up to 8 speeds. This is pretty big for me since I prefer to use one of the "build your own" control systems and I really don't want to mess with protocol interfaces.

Chris

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I think you have to build a basic list of equipment and then get a quote for each list. If the Hayward version of your list gets you a huge savings and better warranty, then it’s probably best to go with that. I wouldn’t get too hung up on “we are preferred XXXX shop and can get you awesome prices …” . They are all going to say that and what they really mean is - “I’m a preferred XXXXX dealer and I get a huge profit margin by selling their stuff …”

 

[Dirk]

When you're considering prices and warranties, be sure to fully understand Pentair's (which can be a challenge). If you buy three of the right things, on the same invoice, from the right dealer, when the wind is blowing from the east, and you're standing on one foot, almost everything else Pentair on that same invoice gets the extended three-year warranty. At least that's how it was when I purchased. Check it out, and maybe call Pentair to confirm your understanding of this page is the same as theirs:

Pool Product Warranty Information

Whether you are planning a pool party for friends and family or prefer the serene sensation of a calm pool, Pentair has the pool and spa solutions just for you.

www.pentair.com

My three year warranty got me a new IntelliBrite 5G and an IntelliChlor IC40. At today's prices that's over $2K. Hard to compare prices when considering only a possibility of warranty replacement, but with our current economy it becomes much more of a factor.

 

[Newdude]

I'm a biased Pentair guy. That said, the Tristar VS950 is mighty fine also.

 

[Katodude]

If you are going DIY on the pool controller with NodeJS/Nixie then opt for Pentair. I am not sure if they have the protocols for the Hayward pumps. You can control different speeds with relays, but that is just kludging it. Its nice to be able to tell your pump exactly what speed you want it to run, and also get data back from it.

Actually probably worth a quick check from @rstrouse if they can talk to the Hayward pump?