Grading dilema

[Alhebling]

We are at the Gunite phase and the PB i casually mentioned the back of the pool will need to be dug out because they didn’t know the ground was slightly higher than the front of the pool. They said they would dig a V and I would need to install drains to the street eventually. It seems an easier fix would be to raise the wall in the back but they want to charge me because they are saying it was not in the original design. I am not a pool designer so would expect them to advise what is required. What do you suggest as the best fix ? Common sense is telling me digging a ditch is going to be a mess whenever it rains.

 

[Toxophilite]

To ensure that all grades flow away from pool, the PB does the elevation survey to know how high to set the pool shell before they dig. Unless they had a constraint on the front side that limited height, it was part of their responsibility. If the front could not have been higher than is, then it has to be dealt with after the fact. Was anything discussed in the planning phase?

 

[Dirk]

they want to charge me because they are saying it was not in the original design.

What was not in the original design? A wall? Or the trench they are recommending? What is in the design for the area behind the pool? Is that supposed to be concrete decking back there? Or landscaping? Or was the plan to leave the grass as is?

I can't imagine a pool contractor making a case that it is not his responsibility to include in the build cost a solution that maintains a slope away from every side of a pool. That's pretty much pool design 101. Or trying to sell the excuse that they didn't know exactly what the slope of the yard was before they started digging. Certainly they must have spotted this when they put up the forms that outlined the gunite. He only mentioned this after the gunite went in? I don't know much about building a pool, but I'm pretty sure they know exactly where the top of the bond beam is going to be, all the way around, before they bring in the gunite. They have to level all those forms. Very odd.

Maybe @jimmythegreek can offer some suggestions.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

In my area the finished pool elevation is known before the forms are ever set up for excavation. Determining factors for finished elevation include thickness of coping, proximity to structures and surrounding yard elevation. When the pool is at +0” with no RBB its even more critical to set the forms to the highest point of existing grade that comes in contact with the pool. Are you planning on leaving the grass surrounding the pool?

 

[Dirk]

When the pool is at +0” with no RBB

Translate, please.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

The picture provided is a bit blurry but it looks to me that the bond beam is all at one elevation (+0”)

 

[Dirk]

The picture provided is a bit blurry but it looks to me that the bond beam is all at one elevation (+0”)

Ah. " no RBB" = no raised bond beam?

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Correct, and raised bond beams are in 6” elevation increments +6” +12” +18” on up to +36” this is because tile comes in 3” increments.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Yes the easiest way to work around the grading elevation difference would have been to raise the back wall of the pool at +6” RBB

 

[Dirk]

Yes the easiest way to work around the grading elevation difference would have been to raise the back wall of the pool at +6” RBB

Thanks for the insights. Could that be done now? Could they reliably extend the bond beam in the back higher? Could that backfire at some future point in time?

 

[Dirk]

Common sense is telling me digging a ditch is going to be a mess whenever it rains.

I think what they are saying is that they would dig you a ditch. Then you can use the ditch to install a proper drainage system. Something that will carry water away from the grade before it can reach the pool. Like a French drain if you're going to landscape back there, or a long grate that would be embedded into a concrete deck if that's what you have planned for that area (that's why I was asking what's the plan for back there). Either way, if the drainage system was done correctly, it would prevent any "mess" from occurring during a rain, not exacerbate one. The ditch would accommodate a 3 or 4" drainage pipe that would be routed to some place harmless (like to the street that you mentioned). If it was left unfinished before the next rain, if that's what you meant, then certainly that would make a disastrous mess in your pool. Like possibly permanently stain your new finish kind of mess (depending on what's in the soil).

The actual translation of their suggestion, IMO, is that they want to do the absolute minimum required to get out of fixing their mistake. Pardon me for stating the obvious.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Yes a cold joint could be added to gain the +6”, this situation is common in remodeling of pools. If done correctly no problems would occur in the future. Top of BB would be core drilled to accommodate rebar and epoxy glued into place then Shotcrete applied to required height.

 

[Alhebling]

To ensure that all grades flow away from pool, the PB does the elevation survey to know how high to set the pool shell before they dig. Unless they had a constraint on the front side that limited height, it was part of their responsibility. If the front could not have been higher than is, then it has to be dealt with after the fact. Was anything discussed in the planning phase?

Nothing was mentioned and I was adamant about knowing every potential cost that could come up later. They want to charge me $918 for a low wall.

 

[Alhebling]

What was not in the original design? A wall? Or the trench they are recommending? What is in the design for the area behind the pool? Is that supposed to be concrete decking back there? Or landscaping? Or was the plan to leave the grass as is?

I can't imagine a pool contractor making a case that it is not his responsibility to include in the build cost a solution that maintains a slope away from every side of a pool. That's pretty much pool design 101. Or trying to sell the excuse that they didn't know exactly what the slope of the yard was before they started digging. Certainly they must have spotted this when they put up the forms that outlined the gunite. He only mentioned this after the gunite went in? I don't know much about building a pool, but I'm pretty sure they know exactly where the top of the bond beam is going to be, all the way around, before they bring in the gunite. They have to level all those forms. Very odd.

Maybe @jimmythegreek can offer some suggestions.

The original design had the coping to the grass -they put some shrubs in the virtual photo but we did not have any landscape plans in the contract. I took pictures at the steel phase and its an obvious difference I just figured they knew what they were doing and it would come up higher.

 

[Toxophilite]

Nothing was mentioned and I was adamant about knowing every potential cost that could come up later. They want to charge me $918 for a low wall.

What is the front elevation of the pool in relation to house? I ask because you rear yard elevation is higher than pool and can't imagine it sloped to house.

 

[Alhebling]

In my area the finished pool elevation is known before the forms are ever set up for excavation. Determining factors for finished elevation include thickness of coping, proximity to structures and surrounding yard elevation. When the pool is at +0” with no RBB its even more critical to set the forms to the highest point of existing grade that comes in contact with the pool. Are you planning on leaving the grass surrounding the pool?

We have a large existing patio in front of the pool that will be extended so we were planning to just have grass behind the pool.

 

[Dirk]

Well, grass right up to a pool means grass in your pool. Mine was 5' away, with a concrete deck between, and I still had grass in my pool. Fertilizer runoff into a pool can be a real disaster, too. The stains on my deck are from the lawn sprinklers, not the salt water in my pool. Keep in mind, all pools are saltwater pools eventually (the salt builds up over time), so unless you teach your kids/guests to not have any fun, that lawn is likely going to be compromised at some point. So, if I may, grass right up to your coping is not a great idea even if there wasn't a grade issue.

OK, that said, @AQUA~HOLICS is telling us that the back wall could be heightened to solve the problem (if done correctly). So there's that. If your contractor is offering to do that for $918, that might be a reasonable solution. You could try to get him to pay for it, but that might start you down a road that is just not going to be worth it (stress and resentment on both sides, possibly compromised quality, etc). You could suggest he pay for it, as it was his mistake (IMO). Or you could play good spouse/bad spouse and blame your significant other about not wanting to pay the extra cost. Or you could offer to pay half as a reasonable compromise. Or just pay it yourself and be done with it.

Maybe AQUA~HOLICS can weigh-in about the price, but if $918 includes extending the wall, and all the extra tile work, you would be getting more than the original design at what sounds like a reasonable cost. Not the worst outcome. Then pull the grass and put in some evergreen, salt-tolerant landscaping and some nice low-voltage garden uplighting and turn a problem into a beautiful, elegant, work-saving, pool-saving solution. Landscaping behind your pool will elevate the ambiance and help hide the fence. Lit up at night it would be gorgeous!

Just an idea...

 

[Alhebling]

What is the front elevation of the pool in relation to house? I ask because you rear yard elevation is higher than pool and can't imagine it sloped to house.

There was slight dip in the middle of the yard where the pool is now-so minor slope down towards the pool then back up to the back fence

 

[Toxophilite]

There was slight dip in the middle of the yard where the pool is now-so minor slope down towards the pool then back up to the back fence

Good! That dip will now also need to exist between the pool and your porch elevation. Hopefully, they are same level already (to be finished level) or you will have same runoff issue to pool as in the rear.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Grass right up to the pool. No fertilizer in the pool, no dead grass from the pool water and no grass in the pool.
If this is the look you are trying to achieve it can be done and with little work.
As far as the $918, I can’t see it being done for that low of cost by looking at the photo provided and the distance of RBB needed.