Pentair intellicenter wiring questions

[DocHodges]

All,
I recently purchased a home with a pool that needed some love. The SWG system was for an above ground pool (this pool is in ground) and other various issues. I recently purchased an intellicenter for pool automation. Currently the pump is wired for 240V and the power box is fed using 10/2 wire. The pool light is plumbed from the house on a switch using 120V. Here is my question….

Since I need both 240 and 120V at the intellicenter is it possible to wire for 240 using only 10/2 wire. My assumption here is not having the neutral of a 10/3 cablewill not allow this. Assuming this is true would it be possible to extend the 120V that is feeding my pool light to the intellicenter and use that for 120v? While still feeding the intellicenter with the 240V. I’m certainly not an electrician but I want to be prepared for when the installer comes. I am already digging a trench to extend the pool light to the intellicenter currently so in the same trench I could extend the 120 that fed the light and be done. Not sure if this is the right way to go though. Rerunning the 240 using 10/3 would likely be the correct method but that run passes through a ton of trees that I simply do not have the effor or money to do!

 

[ajw22]

The devil is in the details.

Does the 240V 10/2 line and the 120V line originate in the same electrical panel?

Does the 120V neutral line reach to the IntelliCenter location?

What type of CB will be the feed for the IntelliCenter 240V circuit?

You can possibly use the neutral line from the 120V circuit with the 240V feed if it originates in the same electrical panel.

The IntelliCenter Load Center is going to need a neutral connection from its neutral bar to the house main electrical panel for the GFCI CBs to work properly.

Do you have a ground wire back to the main electrical panel to tie together the ground bar on the Load Center?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Doc,

As you already know the right way to do this is by running 10/3 with a ground.

But I see no reason why you can't power the load center in the IntelliCenter off of 240 volts and just bring in 120 volts through a relay to run your lights. You'd have to use the existing lights GFCI breaker to provide the 120 VAC to the line side of the light Aux relay and then attached the light to the Load side of the relay.

I believe that 240 VAC GFCI breakers work just fine without a neutral wire. You only need a neutral wire if you are using the 240 VAC to also supply 120 VAC.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ajw22]

Does the existing pool pump fed by 240V not have a ground wire?

 

[DocHodges]

Thanks all for the support! The house only has one panel. Both wires are pulled from it so same source. The light does not have a gfci only the main plain breaker currently. My though is to wire the 120 into the power center to a gfci. Then from the output of the gfci to the light circuit spot on the panel. In theory I would be able to then use either the 120 or 240V safely as items that are added need it. Am I way off base with this?

 

[DocHodges]

Does the existing pool pump fed by 240V not have a ground wire?

Yes it does. It’s has 3 wires fed to it but the same 240V is being used to generate 120V currently. Not sure how they are doing it exactly but can’t be safe! I’ve attached pictures below. The left bottom cutout is the 240V feed. The right bottom is the feed to the pump. The rest I believe are 120V circuits. One for the existing SWG and one for a 120V outlet they decided they needed for some reason.

 

[DocHodges]

Doc,

As you already know the right way to do this is by running 10/3 with a ground.

But I see no reason why you can't power the load center in the IntelliCenter off of 240 volts and just bring in 120 volts through a relay to run your lights. You'd have to use the existing lights GFCI breaker to provide the 120 VAC to the line side of the light Aux relay and then attached the light to the Load side of the relay.

I believe that 240 VAC GFCI breakers work just fine without a neutral wire. You only need a neutral wire if you are using the 240 VAC to also supply 120 VAC.

Thanks,

Jim R.

I added some pictures that might help!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Doc,

You have a light in your pool that is not connected to a GFCI breaker??? Are you sure? Kind of hard to believe.

Are you crazy?

Where do you plan to add the GFCI protection inside the IntelliCenter? You can't use the load center for a breaker?

You could add a GFCI receptacle in the knockout on the bottom right side.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[ajw22]

Yes it does. It’s has 3 wires fed to it but the same 240V is being used to generate 120V currently.

If they have 120V in the box then they have a neutral in it.

You need to sort out which are the feeder wires from your main panel - two hot wires, a neutral, and a ground. Those will feed your Load Center. Then you can power everything.

Confirm all the wires are #10 gauge and then you should have a 30 amp CB in the main eletical panel for the feed.

Not sure how they are doing it exactly but can’t be safe!

Should not be a problem using one of the hot legs and a neutral for 120V.

What is concerning is the A terminal on the timer which should be for the neutral connections I see both white neutrals and what looks like ground wires connected. I hope whoever did the wiring did not use a ground as a neutral.

I’ve attached pictures below. The left bottom cutout is the 240V feed. The right bottom is the feed to the pump. The rest I believe are 120V circuits. One for the existing SWG and one for a 120V outlet they decided they needed for some reason.

You will need to sort out each 120V devices hot wire and neutral wire to wire it into the Load Center.

You also need to get GFCI CBs for your pump and light.

Are you going to use a qualified electrician to do the high voltage wiring for the Load Center and figure all this out?

 

[DocHodges]

Doc,

You have a light in your pool that is not connected to a GFCI breaker??? Are you sure? Kind of hard to believe.

Are you crazy?

Where do you plan to add the GFCI protection inside the IntelliCenter? You can't use the load center for a breaker?

You could add a GFCI receptacle in the knockout on the bottom right side.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Maybe it is a GFCI for the light. It’s the one turned off above the 240V 20A breaker in the picture below.

 

[DocHodges]

If they have 120V in the box then they have a neutral in it.

You need to sort out which are the feeder wires from your main panel - two hot wires, a neutral, and a ground. Those will feed your Load Center. Then you can power everything.

Confirm all the wires are #10 gauge and then you should have a 30 amp CB in the main eletical panel for the feed.




Should not be a problem using one of the hot legs and a neutral for 120V.

What is concerning is the A terminal on the timer which should be for the neutral connections I see both white neutrals and what looks like ground wires connected. I hope whoever did the wiring did not use a ground as a neutral.



You will need to sort out each 120V devices hot wire and neutral wire to wire it into the Load Center.

You also need to get GFCI CBs for your pump and light.

Are you going to use a qualified electrician to do the high voltage wiring for the Load Center and figure all this out?

The pump I’m certain does not have a GFCI but the light (pictured above I think does).

I really think they used the ground for neutral since other than the 240V 10/2 wire I have traced everything and nothing else comes from the house. That’s the only way to make 120V I am aware of which is what lead to my delima here. The way I see it there are only two options. Extend the 120V that’s using 12/2 wire to the power center and use the existing 240V or run new 240V 10/3 wire. Extending the 120V is much much easier but I want to make sure it will work.

I have an installer coming on next Saturday to do the wiring. I spoke with him about the situation and he said that it doesn’t need to be 10/3 which i know isn’t correct. My only assumption is that he thinks the panel is also fed with 120V which it currently is not. If I can get the wires he needs to the location the intellicenter will be installed then I won’t be hit with a massive bill. I’ve already got a trench dug down about 14 inches. Tomorrow I plan to add a junction box under ground and run the 120V (breaker off) to the location of the intellicenter. At the same time I plan to extend the conduit used for the pool light wire in the same trench since it was ran from an outlet and wouldn’t reach the intellicenter currently.

I’ll be honest it’s a freaking mess as the previous owners did not care for this system the way they should. I’ve brought the pool back to life and have it looking incredible. Now it’s just time to keep it that way.

 

[ajw22]

Tomorrow I plan to add a junction box under ground and run the 120V (breaker off) to the location of the intellicenter.

I would not put any 120V/240 wiring junction box underground. No matter how much they say it is waterproof. They all leak eventually, get corrosion,, trip GFCIs, and cause problems. Any high voltage junction box needs to be above ground and have buried conduit leading to it.

So where is this 120V you are running to the IntelliCnter connecting to at the other end?

The 120V feed have a black, white and green wires?

At the same time I plan to extend the conduit used for the pool light wire in the same trench since it was ran from an outlet and wouldn’t reach the intellicenter currently.

Are you using a above ground pool light junction box?

 

[DocHodges]

I would not put any 120V/240 wiring junction box underground. No matter how much they say it is waterproof. They all leak eventually, get corrosion,, trip GFCIs, and cause problems. Any high voltage junction box needs to be above ground and have buried conduit leading to it.

So where is this 120V you are running to the IntelliCnter connecting to at the other end?

The 120V feed have a black, white and green wires?



Are you using a above ground pool light junction box?

The 120V feed is just 2 wire and ground. No green wire. It’s currently in an above ground junction box but was hoping to eliminate it as it’s in a bad spot. It can stay though since I agree that it will likely cause issues in the future.

The 120v that will feed the intellicenter comes directly from the same panel as the 240 on its own breaker

 

[ajw22]

The 120V feed is just 2 wire and ground. No green wire.

120V two wires should be black and white. And green is normally the ground wire.

The 120v that will feed the intellicenter comes directly from the same panel as the 240 on its own breaker

If the white wire on the 120V line is connected to the neutral bus in your main panel then you just pair it with the two 240V hot lines in the IntelliCenter and you have 120V + 240V.

240 devices connect to two hot wires through a double pole CB.

120 devices connect to one hot wire through a single pole CB and a neutral connection to the neutral bar or to the CB if it is GFCI.

You don’t need and should not use the 120V hot wire in the IntelliCenter.

 

[DocHodges]

120V two wires should be black and white. And green is normally the ground wire.


If the white wire on the 120V line is connected to the neutral bus in your main panel then you just pair it with the two 240V hot lines in the IntelliCenter and you have 120V + 240V.

240 devices connect to two hot wires through a double pole CB.

120 devices connect to one hot wire through a single pole CB and a neutral connection to the neutral bar or to the CB if it is GFCI.

You don’t need and should not use the 120V hot wire in the IntelliCenter.

Yup I knew that sorry! I was thinking yellow. Since most romex it’s just copper instead of having the green shield I misspoke.

If I understand you correctly I should have the installer basically only use the neutral wire from the 120V circuit. This would have the neutral connected and the ground on the ground bar but the black hot would essentially be cut and capped? Sorry for the dumb questions you have been a ton of help. Just want to make sure I can clearly explain exactly what I want to the guy installing.

 

[ajw22]

Yup I knew that sorry! I was thinking yellow. Since most romex it’s just copper instead of having the green shield I misspoke.

I hope you are using THHN/THWN wire for all the outdoor wiring and not Romex.

If I understand you correctly I should have the installer basically only use the neutral wire from the 120V circuit. This would have the neutral connected and the ground on the ground bar but the black hot would essentially be cut and capped?

That is correct. That should give you two hot wires running from a 240V CB in your main electrical panel plus a neutral coming from the main panel neutral bar and a ground coming from the ground bar in the main panel. Those four wires form the subpanel electrical feed from the main panel to the Load Center.

Check on the gauge wire used for the four wires.

I would disconnect the 120V black wire from whatever breaker it is connect to at the electrical panel and cap both ends.

You may find that wire useful at some future time so I would not cut it.

Sorry for the dumb questions you have been a ton of help. Just want to make sure I can clearly explain exactly what I want to the guy installing.

I think you got it.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[DocHodges]

I hope you are using THHN/THWN wire for all the outdoor wiring and not Romex.



That is correct. That should give you two hot wires running from a 240V CB in your main electrical panel plus a neutral coming from the main panel neutral bar and a ground coming from the ground bar in the main panel. Those four wires form the subpanel electrical feed from the main panel to the Load Center.

Check on the gauge wire used for the four wires.

I would disconnect the 120V black wire from whatever breaker it is connect to at the electrical panel and cap both ends.

You may find that wire useful at some future time so I would not cut it.



I think you got it.

Let us know how it goes.

Nope! The wire they are running is UF-B romex actually :/ Not ideal but must have been code in 1991 when the house was built. That’s the wire below

100-ft 10/2 UF Wire (By-the-Roll) https://www.lowes.com/pd/100-ft-10-2-UF-Wire-By-the-Roll/3129309