UGH...now I need to connect SWG to Pump. Electrical help.

[PoolStored]

So decided I was going to convert to SWG. Bought the unit (circupool). Replumbed the entire pad. Looks great!

Now I learn that flow switch is insufficient, for safety reasons, and have to tie SWG power to the pump. NOT HAPPY. Why isn't life just easy, at least sometimes?

I want to use the programming on the VSP for the pump, not an external timer, and want to separately time the SWG, but only have it work IF the pump is on. Apparently there are no out of the box solutions for mixed equipment (pentair pump & Circupool). Had I known this would have been an issue, I would have gotten the pentair IC-60 and easy touch in the first place, instead of Circupool. If I decide to go with the Pentair combo, I'm sure I can sell the Circupool (unused at this point). Will the Pentair cell fit in the same space/unions as the circupool that I just plumbed (if I decide to go that route)? Likely won't because of the cost and the ET is overkill for a pump and a SWG only, but would be nice to know.

The solution that I did find is this current sensing relay (This Thread):

I believe the pump is 240V, and the CSR I will use is a 1-10AAC high trip. I believe, from here (Superflow tests) that this is the correct range for the setup. Can anyone confirm that the 1-10 is the right range and I'm consuming the test data correctly? (I want to run continuously at 1400, then raise to 1800 for chlorinating cycle.) Anyone else build this? Your experience? Reliability? Finally, I don't understand phasing, but from what I can gather, Amps on both hot legs of the 240 would the same, and would both be equal to the Amp draw on from the equipment. Got that right? TIA

 

[jmastron]

Which Circupool SWCG do you have. At least some of them do specifically say it's okay to energize them continuously with the flow switch controlling, specifically for VS pumps. For example: https://www.circupool.com/assets/doc/CircuPool-RJ-PLUS-Manual.pdf (page 16).

Now, as far as I can tell they're using the same flow switches everyone uses, so it's not clear why that one would be okay to rely on more than other brands, but I guess it depends whose lawyers are more lawyery that day...

What I did was set my SWCG (a Calimar unit similar to the Universal series) for 120V, put a standard cord/plug on it, and use a WiFi plug timer. That lets me run it however long I want within the pump schedule, and adjust it from my kitchen (where I do testing, kind of far from the pool) without going back. It's not 100% failsafe, but if I mess up the schedule or a power failure puts the pump's timer out of sync, the flow switch is the backup.

I'm not sure I'd bother with a current sensing switch -- it's just a more complicated flow switch after all, sensing electric current rather than water current.

 

[PoolStored]

My understanding, manual aside, there is an explosion risk if the SWG runs while the pump is off. Are you saying that risk doesn’t exist if the manual says flow sensor is sufficient?

 

[markayash]

My understanding, manual aside, there is an explosion risk if the SWG runs while the pump is off. Are you saying that risk doesn’t exist if the manual says flow sensor is sufficient?

I have mine on a separate 120V smart plug with a timer but discount salt told me Its wasn't required.

 

[PoolStored]

I have mine on a separate 120V smart plug with a timer but discount salt told me Its wasn't required.

How does this obviate the explosion risk?

 

[markayash]

How does this obviate the explosion risk?

They told me the flow sensor will shut the device down when the pump stops. I know the risk is if that sensor fails closed. And that's the risk.
I have mine on a smart plug and set the timer to match the pump. Its close enough that I am not concerned.
I have turned my pump off in the day to clean and every time the Edge40 says " low flow"

 

[PoolStored]

They told me the flow sensor will shut the device down when the pump stops. I know the risk is if that sensor fails closed. And that's the risk.
I have mine on a smart plug and set the timer to match the pump. Its close enough that I am not concerned.
I have turned my pump off in the day to clean and every time the Edge40 says " low flow"

SWG Explosion...with pictures.

Advice is to use flow switch as secondary and power control to the pump controlling the SWG. Also the Manual does in fact show the wiring to include the timer/pump power control.

 

[proavia]

The SWG flow switch is the secondary safety shut off. Use a timer to have the SWG powered within the scheduled pump run time. Many set the timer to turn on 30 minutes after the pump starts and turn off 30 minutes before the pump stops. No matter what the manufacturer or dealer may say, do NOT rely soley on the flow switch. You will need to check the pump timer and SWG timer (weekly would be best) to be sure the times are closely synced. But since you should be checking the equipmemt pad at least weekly, that shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[PoolStored]

The SWG flow switch is the secondary safety shut off. Use a timer to have the SWG powered within the scheduled pump run time. Many set the timer to turn on 30 minutes after the pump starts and turn off 30 minutes before the pump stops. No matter what the manufacturer or dealer may say, do NOT rely soley on the flow switch. You will need to check the pump timer and SWG timer (weekly would be best) to be sure the times are closely synced. But since you should be checking the equipmemt pad at least weekly, that shouldn't be a big deal.

What happens if the a) the pump fails, b) your flow switch has failed and c) your SWG timer fires up the SWG? That is why I am tying the power supply to the SWG to the current draw on the pump. It ensures that the pump is running when the SWG is turned on.

 

[proavia]

A VS pump should have constant power and not be tied to a timer. The VS pump has its own internal timer.

 

[PoolStored]

A VS pump should have constant power and not be tied to a timer. The VS pump has its own internal timer.

I'm not proposing a timer for the VSP. I'm proposing a current sensing relay, sensing on the pump amp draw to turn SWG on ONLY when pump is above a certain speed.

 

[markayash]

What happens if the a) the pump fails, b) your flow switch has failed and c) your SWG timer fires up the SWG? That is why I am tying the power supply to the SWG to the current draw on the pump. It ensures that the pump is running when the SWG is turned on.

I am not telling you to do it. I will take my chances if all that happens

 

[cowboycasey]

I have not used this but it looks like it would work perfect for your SWG, I know it is for a pump but you can use it for the SWG.. You may have to change the internals of the SWG over to 120v but that is easy..

Migro Outdoor Smart Wi-Fi Outlet Box, Heavy Duty 50A Resistive 120VAC 40A 5HP Wireless Pump Control Timer Switch, Compatible with Smart Phone, Alexa, Google Home, IFTTT UL Listed - - Amazon.com

Migro Outdoor Smart Wi-Fi Outlet Box, Heavy Duty 50A Resistive 120VAC 40A 5HP Wireless Pump Control Timer Switch, Compatible with Smart Phone, Alexa, Google Home, IFTTT UL Listed - - Amazon.com

smile.amazon.com

 

[Bperry]

I'm not proposing a timer for the VSP. I'm proposing a current sensing relay, sensing on the pump amp draw to turn SWG on ONLY when pump is above a certain speed.

Why not just run the pump 24x7 and put the SWCG on a separate timer? And does the pump not have a secondary power relay internally? I think mine does but I didn’t use it.

 

[Newdude]

I am not telling you to do it. I will take my chances if all that happens

I took similar risks. My VS pump and the SWG were on the same breakers so 99.9% of the time if the pump lost power, so did the SWG. But the dang SVRS would trip at times stopping flow while leaving the power to both on. In those rare occurrences I had to rely on the backup failsafe of the flow switch. Could a double failure *happen* ? Absolutely. But it was slim enough to roll the dice.

 

[Homebrewale]

A VS pump should have constant power and not be tied to a timer. The VS pump has its own internal timer.

Why is that? My VSP is connected to my intermatic timer. I don't control my VSP using the timer dogs to turn it on and off. Instead I just run my VSP 24/7. But if I did use the timer, the power to my SWG was also controlled by it so if the pump turned off, so did the SWG. The SWG could not run if the timer was in the off position for the pump. I guess the only issue would be if my pump breaks down and the flow switch on the SWG also fails at the same time.

 

[markayash]

Why is that? My VSP is connected to my intermatic timer. I don't control my VSP using the timer dogs to turn it on and off. Instead I just run my VSP 24/7. But if I did use the timer, the power to my SWG was also controlled by it so if the pump turned off, so did the SWG. The SWG could not run if the timer was in the off position for the pump. I guess the only issue would be if my pump breaks down and the flow switch on the SWG also fails at the same time.

I program my VS speed pump to run from 11am until 11pm using the menu. Not sure how long it would hold the programing

 

[markayash]

I took similar risks. My VS pump and the SWG were on the same breakers so 99.9% of the time if the pump lost power, so did the SWG. But the dang SVRS would trip at times stopping flow while leaving the power to both on. In those rare occurrences I had to rely on the backup failsafe of the flow switch. Could a double failure *happen* ? Absolutely. But it was slim enough to roll the dice.

The power to my SWG come off the same panel ( GFI ) as the pump

 

[laprjns]

The solution that I did find is this current sensing relay (This Thread): Anyone else build this?

Yup, I did. The current sensing device I use is a CR4395-EH-120-110-X-CD-ELR-I. It senses current on one of the pump's 220v lines and switches 120V to my SWCG based on the current trip point setting. My old pump ran off of 120V so I used the circuit to power the SWG through the CSR. If you don't have 120 available there is a version that can switch 220V (see the second page of the above link).
The current trip point is adjustable between 0 and 10 amps, however, I reduce this range to 0 to 3.3 amps by looping the 220V line through the transformer 3 times. This allows for finer control of the trip point with the adjustment dial at the lower end of the current range. You can see in the picture that the trip point adjustment is around 25% which results in a trip point of around 0.8 amps which allows me to run the pump at around its lowest speed (600 rpm) and still have the SWG powered.

Your experience? Reliability?

It has been running through three seasons now and I never had to touch it. I don't worry about timers getting out of sync nor Alexa going on strike. If the pump is not turning greater than 600 rpm, then the SWG is not powered.

Finally, I don't understand phasing, but from what I can gather, Amps on both hot legs of the 240 would the same, and would both be equal to the Amp draw on from the equipment. Got that right? TIA

Yes, current goes into the motor on one line and out on the other line, Line In current equals line out current. Only one line goes through the CSR sensing coil.

 

[setsailsoon]

Had I known this would have been an issue, I would have gotten the pentair IC-60 and easy touch in the first place,

Pool,

You can use any automation system to accomplish what you want for swg with any brand swg so long as you have one additional relay available. Just take power from the load side of the pump relay to supply power to the line side of the swg relay. Set the swg relay schedule as desired. If the pump is not powered the swg will not get power either. If the pump is running you will be able to set the swg to run and shut off before the pump is off. Of course it's much cheaper to do as you plan with a current sensing relay. I used them for several functions on my blue water sailboat and found them to be extremely reliable. One last point, many people here just use two different timers and are comfortable that chances of double failure is very low. I actually believe they're right but just prefer a little more safety since the consequences are very sever even though the chance is low. For control and automation systems the human factor is almost always the most unreliable. For me, I think it's very likely that one day I would set the timer incorrectly but it actually takes more than this to fail. That said I like things a little more elegant. As with many things about pools your personal preference is the right choice for you.

Chris