Pulling my hair out over pump issue

robertmee

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2015
385
Raleigh
I'm reticent to post this as I know it's a common issue, but I feel I've about exhausted all tests and need someone else to take an unbiased look.

History: Pool in service and under TFP care since 2014. My chemistry is always spot on. Solaxx SWG, Hayward Multispeed pump (circular pump basket), Hayward Sand Filter and Multiport Valve.

Symptom: Pump basket develops large air bubble.

Setup: Two separate input streams from two main drains (ball valve) and one skimmer (ball valve). Three return options (two returns, ribbon jets, fountains). I keep my pool open year around, and the water is always crystal clear. I probably run my pump more than most as the wife doesn't like any surface debris, so pretty much skimming 24/7.

Attempted Fixes:
Brand new pump basket seal and lubricant
Have run both water and soap test on all inlet plumbing, no change
I can isolate either main drains or skimmer basket, and turning either off doesn't rid the bubble, so don't believe there is any underground leak.
No water loss
Have checked impeller for any debris
Pump basket always clean
Skimmer basket always clean, and water level, 3/4 way up on skimmer
Not directly related to this, but when doing a deep sand clean, one of the fingers broke, so I have completely replaced the sand filter distributor as well as put in all new sand....this process made no change in the bubble.

What WILL temporarily seem to fix the issue is turning the multiport valve to recirculate. The basket will then eventually fill and stay that way, even going back normal operation....for awhile. Eventually, the air pocket returns.

Other things I've noticed: The SWG on the outlet of the Sand Filter seems to cavitate a bit. I don't recall in years past this shaking at all.
My TFT pressure gauge on the sand filter also quit working...it's pegged past 30 PSI, so I can't immediately check pressure but have another one on order. But that I just put new sand and new finger assembly in, I can't imagine this is the issue. But the recirculate mode clearing it up, makes it suspicious. I have two separate returns, jets and fountains, and opening them all doesn't change anything (less restrictive path).

Is it possible since I run my pump more often that the impeller needs to be changed? Pool is always crystal clear and free of debris, so the impeller has never been subjected to trash, but is it possible it's just worn from use? The only other oddity is the return ball valve for skimmer is very difficult to turn, so was wondering if it's broken or always partially blocked. But I am able to starve the pump by closing it all the way, so it's at least partially working and I'm getting good swirl in the skimmer basket.

Please Help!
 
VS pumps have problems with air in the pump... Not sure why.... If I run mine low below 1000 rpm it will get a bubble... If I run it at 1500 the bubble goes away... after running at 1500 it will stay bubble free for 2 to 4 hours but the bubble always returns...

How big of a bubble are we talking about?
 
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+1. Is it really just a bubble ? I named mine Barry and we became good friends. I would greet him every time at the weekly equipment check.

Or is the pump basket a half gallon short ?
 
Is the seal on the pump motor sucking air?

I had a stuck ball valve last year that was restricting flow on the primary return to the pool jets. I did battle with the pump and filter to no avail, however when I decided to replumb everything on the pad I started with the returns which eliminated the stuck valve and the bubble went away. I cut open the crappy old pvc valve and discovered that it was restricting flow at least 50%; it never really opened up all the way.

I installed these Hydroseal valves which I really like, super smooth and easy to turn. Also fully serviceable.
 

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VS pumps have problems with air in the pump... Not sure why.... If I run mine low below 1000 rpm it will get a bubble... If I run it at 1500 the bubble goes away... after running at 1500 it will stay bubble free for 2 to 4 hours but the bubble always returns...

How big of a bubble are we talking about?
I would estimate the pump basket is 90% full....so almost the full diameter of the pump basket lid. I'll try to attach a video in a bit.
 
Is the seal on the pump motor sucking air?

I had a stuck ball valve last year that was restricting flow on the primary return to the pool jets. I did battle with the pump and filter to no avail, however when I decided to replumb everything on the pad I started with the returns which eliminated the stuck valve and the bubble went away. I cut open the crappy old pvc valve and discovered that it was restricting flow at least 50%; it never really opened up all the way.

I installed these Hydroseal valves which I really like, super smooth and easy to turn. Also fully serviceable. I cut open the old pvc valve and discovered that it was restricting flow at least 50%.
I'm not sure on which seal you are referring to? I've doused the entire pump in water and it doesn't change the bubble. This includes the motor/pump junction, the drain plugs and the inlet union.

Interesting on the valves. That's what I have, cheap PVC ball valves and as mentioned, at least the skimmer valve is exceedingly difficult to turn. I don't think my returns are at issue however, as I have three separate return paths, each with a valve, and unless all three valves are at issue, no combination of valves changes the bubble.
 
I've uploaded a couple of videos. The one video shows pump at 1800 rpm and the large amount of void. The 2nd video, shows the basket purging the air over time when I move the multiport valve to Circulate on my sand filter (bypassing filter). The pump is running 3200 rpm at this time because it is priming. However, stopping and starting the pump and letting it run a priming cycle at 3200 rpm WITHOUT going to recirculate first does NOT get rid of the bubble. Only going to recirculate for a period of time seems to remove the air. I had to cut the video short, but after about a minute, all air bubbles are gone.

 
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With that much air it is a suction side leak... where is the question...

Air in the pump has nothing to do with what is after the pump.. It is interesting that the air goes away by changing to recirculate... I am not a pump person but I did change out my motor...

Maybe try a pump rebuild kit with a slat or SCS seal and see where that gets you... not out to much money and if it works your great,, if it does not another thing that you tried... :)

Give inyo a call and ask them for the kit INYO Pools Customer Support - INYOPools.com
 

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With that much air it is a suction side leak... where is the question...

Air in the pump has nothing to do with what is after the pump.. It is interesting that the air goes away by changing to recirculate... I am not a pump person but I did change out my motor...

Maybe try a pump rebuild kit with a slat or SCS seal and see where that gets you... not out to much money and if it works your great,, if it does not another thing that you tried... :)

Give inyo a call and ask them for the kit INYO Pools Customer Support - INYOPools.com

I would agree, but it would have to be after the junction of my two inlets coming into the pump, because valving off either the main drains or the skimmer do not change the bubble. So it's not a leak underground. Would you concur?

I will look into the pump rebuild. I was probably going to change the impeller as well. In looking at a ton of past threads, one user said that his was solved by tightening the bolts between the motor and the pump. I thought the pump shaft was sealed on the motor side, so not sure why that would effect anything, but one more thing I will investigate.
 
You would think if one or the other main drain or skimmer were the culprit it would change the "bubble" I concur...

hmmmm, Is it a Jandy Valve? I wonder if it needs rebuilt??? just wondering out loud...
 
You would think if one or the other main drain or skimmer were the culprit it would change the "bubble" I concur...

hmmmm, Is it a Jandy Valve? I wonder if it needs rebuilt??? just wondering out loud...
No, nothing that nice. Looks like standard PVC Ball valves from Lowes or HD. Over the years, I usually 'throttle' the main drain, putting more suction to the skimmer...wonder if that has damaged the cheap internal ball (also thinking out loud).
 
I do not like those ball valves, they leak air and break off and well you name it... I know Jandy valves are expensive, I just bought 10.. But they are worth every penny... :)
 
I'm going to go outside the box here.

Without a high enough flow rate, any small gas bubbles will collect in the pump basket because there isn't enough flow to suck them down through the pump. The fact that turning the multiport to recirculate makes them disappear tells me your filter is restricting flow rate enough that it reduces the flow below that threshold. When was the last time you did a deep clean of your filter media? The reason I ask is, I also had a bubble. I didn't know I needed to deep clean the sand to break up compacted bits and break up flow channels that had developed. I deep cleaned several years of junk from the filter and bubble was gone!
 
I'm going to go outside the box here.

Without a high enough flow rate, any small gas bubbles will collect in the pump basket because there isn't enough flow to suck them down through the pump. The fact that turning the multiport to recirculate makes them disappear tells me your filter is restricting flow rate enough that it reduces the flow below that threshold. When was the last time you did a deep clean of your filter media? The reason I ask is, I also had a bubble. I didn't know I needed to deep clean the sand to break up compacted bits and break up flow channels that had developed. I deep cleaned several years of junk from the filter and bubble was gone!
Sand is brand new as is the lateral assembly. I think I mentioned that in the first post, but I know it was alot of info to digest. Thinking like you, I did a deep clean but when removing the multiport, the main pipe was stuck into the valve and ended up pulling the laterals up enough that one cracked. So long story short, I emptied the sand filter and bought a new lateral assembly. Put new sand in. So sand is clean. My new pressure gauge is due Saturday, so hopefully have a better picture on possible restriction. But unless I did something wrong on adding sand, not sure how it could be filter. I emptied filter, installed lateral assembly, flipped them down, filled half with water, added sand amount according to Hayward manual, which was about 2/3 full.

Curious, is it possible to have too much sand. I would estimate the sand level is about 10 inches below the top...just past the point where the filter begins to narrow towards the top.
It’s fairly common for vs pumps to show a bubble or in fact quite a bit of air on very low speeds, as long as the jets aren’t blowing bubbles it’s not an issue imo.
What is considered low speed? Pipes are 2" and I run the pump at 1800 rpm usually.
 

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