Backup power.

[JamesW]

For people who are losing power, how many have backup power?

What backup power do you have?

Do you have solar, natural gas or what?

Who plans to get backup power and what do you plan to get?

Do you have or plan to get a battery wall?

With so many people working from home, people can’t afford to be without power.

 

[PoolGate]

I have a 5500 watt generator in my shed, which would pretty much be impossible to get to if there was snow on the ground. I haven't fired it up in years. The last time I did, the fuel filter was stuck in the carb and I had to fix it. Probably like that again. But, I have been in this house over 10 years and never had an outage longer than 5 minutes. And those are rare. My old house had frequent outages including many multiday outages. In that house, I installed a transfer switch to send my generator power direct into my load center. I highly suggest a similar setup for anyone in an area that is prone to outages.

 

[JamesW]

In my opinion, most houses will/should get solar and battery walls.

With so many people working from home and electric cars, people really can’t tolerate being without power for any length of time.

 

[mknauss]

During my research, the battery walls do not do much good for us with the need for air conditioning. I am looking at a natural gas whole house generator. But with natural gas under attack, I am unsure on the viability of that path in the longer term.

 

[PoolGate]

In my opinion, most houses will/should get solar and battery walls.

With so many people working from home and electric cars, people really can’t tolerate being without power for any length of time.

I would caution against solar. It is a no-win if you go with the "no cost" installation and pay Solar City under contract for power your panels produce. In addition, it will cost you plenty if you sell to an educated buyer that understands what a poor contract for the consumer solar city has people sign. A friend of mine recently bought a house with panels and made the buyer give him a $5k credit to take them. Once the contract he had to take over has expired, he will shut the panels off. But yes, if you can afford the panels outright, they can be a good thing especially if you are looking strictly for backup power and not looking for cost savings. There is NO ROI from solar unless you are in an area that still gives massive tax rebates for putting them in. And even there it is iffy.

 

[JamesW]

But with natural gas under attack, I am unsure on the viability of that path in the longer term.

What's going on with natural gas?

Is it going to run out or just get really expensive?

With all of the natural gas heating for home, pool etc. I would hope that it would not be a problem.

 

[mknauss]

The Federal Govt has stated they will restrict / eliminate access to federal lands. And no fracturing. That will bleed over to all lands quickly. And without fracturing, your natural gas production plummets. It will first get more expensive. Then it will become no longer available. As a point in fact, some California cities no longer allow natural gas to be put in new buildings, residential or commercial.

The 'no fossil fuel' crowd has power right now. They are going to wield it.

 

[jtpipkin]

What's going on with natural gas?

Is it going to run out or just get really expensive?

With all of the natural gas heating for home, pool etc. I would hope that it would not be a problem.

The new administration is focusing on 'green' energy and possible side effects are higher taxes to steer folks away from natural gas making it a lot less cost efficient...

On a side note, those of y'all with generators - please make sure you crank them up and let them run every once in a while. Would be a shame to have it and need it and it not run when you do... gas gets old sitting in the carbs.

 

[JamesW]

Solar is continuously improving. Even if they won’t pay off completely yet, it probably won’t be long before they do pay off.

As long as they’re close to paying off, people will want to be environmentally responsible and generate their own power.

Power backup is increasing in importance as people have more need for critical power.

Without power, you can’t charge your electric car or work from home.

Without power, your heating does not work even if you have natural gas heating.

With natural gas heating, it only takes a small amount of power to power the electrical part of the HVAC system.

For heat pumps for heating or cooling or air conditioners, the power draw is likely too high for sustained battery power, but solar plus battery during the day should be sufficient, especially if you use some sort of smart zone technology.

At night, the need for AC is reduced or eliminated.

With the Tesla solar roof tiles, replacing a roof with solar becomes increasingly attractive.

In my opinion, in the next 20 years, more than 80% of buildings will have solar.

 

[jtpipkin]

James - 'In a perfect world...'. Unfortunately, we're nowhere close to it being viable and cost efficient for most of us right now. We had solar as a kid in south florida. We've come a long way, bust still have a long, long way to go

 

[PoolGate]

Also consider the unintended consequences of putting power generation at the home. Power plants are all or none. Any power not sold is wasted. When the tipping point is reached you will start to see large increases in power rates. For companies not able to increase rates because of whatever reason (regulations), they will simply stop generating. This will be a real problem. Outages, even higher rates for those still producing, etc. Especially since the ONLY viable personal power source is solar, which does not work at night. The backup batteries may work in some cases, but that has its whole environmental issues. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[JJ_Tex]

Solar works but is horrible if you have hail like we do.
Texas has a ton of wind turbines and they supply 25% of our electricity. As we are now painfully aware, they don’t work in ice storms.
The answer is a good blended mix of green energy, fossil fuels, nuclear, etc. That mix also likely varies by region, but the basic concept is don’t put all of your eggs in one basket but also try to reduce your environmental impacts.

 

[HeyEng]

After the ice storm we had in October (which resulted in a 10 day power outage) we got a Westinghouse 7500/9500 back up generator. It came as gasoline powered, but we also got a NG conversion kit and had a connection installed at the meter. We are still able to run it on gasoline if we need to. Our house was already wired for a whole house generator, so it's just a matter of plugging it in, doing the appropriate load shedding and then let it rip. It provides enough power to run everything except the HVAC and the well/water heater (at the same time). We have a split panel, so the items that normally wouldn't be run on a generator are on the "split panel". As a matter of course, I run it for 20 minutes on the 1st of every month. We have not had to use it so far.

As far as the grid is concerned, we have considered solar panels, but as someone mentioned...hail is an issue here in Oklahoma. We also considered a wind turbine, but they aren't very cheap and probably couldn't generate enough power to be worth the expense. We are also situated in an area that isn't very windy (I know...somewhere in Oklahoma that isn't windy?!?) so that further reduces the effectiveness.

So, no good answers for "off the grid" power where we are.

 

[red-beard]

I have a Briggs and Stratton 20 kW generator. So we did not lose power and we did not lose heat. BUT...we lost water because the backup generator for our water supply failed.

My company manufactures hybrid solar energy systems. They were originally designed for off-shore platforms, but we made a commercial/home version.

Solar is the main power source. Excess energy is stored in batteries during the day and used overnight. A backup generator is provided and supplies power when the solar/batteries are not enough. To minimize run time, the batteries also recharge from the generator. When mostly full, the generator shuts off.

Fuel for the generator is generally propane or natural gas. Diesel units can be used, but the fuel in a day tank can go bad. Some places, there is not choice.

A properly designed off-grid system, solar will provide 90% of your energy needs over a year, with the generator making up 10%. This is mostly for cloudy days or high usage days.

The same system can be grid-connected. It will keep the batteries full. Excess solar energy is sold to the grid. Backup generator is only used when the grid is off AND the batteries are low. One very useful feature: Switching from Grid to Battery is nearly instantaneous. You might see the lights flicker, but that is about it. The same occurs if generator power is needed. It starts and warms up the generator before the batteries are out.

I will say though, generators have a 24 week backlog right now. So if you want one for summer, order it today. Doesn't matter the brand.

 

[Dirk]

Here in CA, PG&E is the problem.

My PV solar system generates all the electricity I need per year. But I have to rely on PG&E to distribute what I generate across the day, month and year I use it. You might think the solution is an in-house battery, but that won't work. First off, my system gets me through the year only because I have a deal with PG&E to furnish power at night, and in the winter, in exchange for what I send them during the day and the summer. In order to generate all I need for every day of the year, all year, I'd need a much larger array of panels, perhaps more than my roof could hold, and a massive battery for nighttime. And that's with no air conditioning in the mix, probably. But nope, PG&E doesn't allow that. If I want to use their grid the way I am, I can't also have a battery. It would violate our contract. Yep. Strangle hold. PG&E has us citizens building and paying for their generation plant (on our roofs), but they want us beholding to them for storage. That's how they'll remain in business once all the homes in CA have solar.

If panels get more efficient, and batteries get smaller (and cheaper), perhaps the average residential-sized home can get off the grid, but for now, PG&E is holding the cards.

That said, for now, they're offering a great deal. PG&E is my battery, and I don't pay a dime for electricity. My panels will pay for themselves in a few more years (about five, total), and I'll be sitting pretty. Well, until CA's PUC bends over to PG&E and they renege on what is supposed to be a guaranteed grandfathered deal... But they'll get out of it somehow... and then who knows what my bills will be...

The other rub is that solar panels don't work in a power outage. I go down when the grid does. Partly because I don't have the equipment to send panel power to my house, but mostly because the size of my array is not big enough to run things. It takes all day to generate what I use in a day. I need the grid to store power from hour to hour. So to use my panels in an outage, I'd need a giant battery, which PG&E won't allow! So for outages, I need a generator, which I've contemplated buying, but that's as far as I've gotten, the contemplation. It's a tough call. It'd be nice to have, but I have so few outages that it's hard to justify a multi-thousand dollar purchase for a few hours of use every other year or so. Now as our power grid continues to degrade due to mismanagement, a generator might make more sense. But until then, the ROI on a generator is iffy.

 

[red-beard]

Batteries are getting cheaper and better. There are some amazing batteries in design. Toyota and Solid State. Honda and a Calcium battery. Both are cheaper and have double the capacity for the weight. But they are not out yet.

IF you want a daily cycling battery, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) is the only viable battery. It will last up to 20 years cycled every day. Is it affordable compared to grid power? Not in Texas (at the moment). But it should work at California energy prices.

 

[PoolGate]

Here in CA, PG&E is the problem.

My PV solar system generates all the electricity I need per year. But I have to rely on PG&E to distribute what I generate across the day, month and year I use it. You might think the solution is an in-house battery, but that won't work. First off, my system gets me through the year only because I have a deal with PG&E to furnish power at night, and in the winter, in exchange for what I send them during the day and the summer. In order to generate all I need for every day of the year, all year, I'd need a much larger array of panels, perhaps more than my roof could hold, and a massive battery for nighttime. And that's with no air conditioning in the mix, probably. But nope, PG&E doesn't allow that. If I want to use their grid the way I am, I can't also have a battery. It would violate our contract. Yep. Strangle hold. PG&E has us citizens building and paying for their generation plant (on our roofs), but they want us beholding to them for storage. That's how they'll remain in business once all the homes in CA have solar.

If panels get more efficient, and batteries get smaller (and cheaper), perhaps the average residential-sized home can get off the grid, but for now, PG&E is holding the cards.

That said, for now, they're offering a great deal. PG&E is my battery, and I don't pay a dime for electricity. My panels will pay for themselves in a few more years (about five, total), and I'll be sitting pretty. Well, until CA's PUC bends over to PG&E and they renege on what is supposed to be a guaranteed grandfathered deal... But they'll get out of it somehow... and then who knows what my bills will be...

The other rub is that solar panels don't work in a power outage. I go down when the grid does. Partly because I don't have the equipment to send panel power to my house, but mostly because the size of my array is not big enough to run things. It takes all day to generate what I use in a day. I need the grid to store power from hour to hour. So to use my panels in an outage, I'd need a giant battery, which PG&E won't allow! So for outages, I need a generator, which I've contemplated buying, but that's as far as I've gotten, the contemplation. It's a tough call. It'd be nice to have, but I have so few outages that it's hard to justify a multi-thousand dollar purchase for a few hours of use every other year or so. Now as our power grid continues to degrade due to mismanagement, a generator might make more sense. But until then, the ROI on a generator is iffy.

I worked for PG&E (Corporate, not the utility) for 10 years and there is so much more to the whole energy deregulation story. Suffice it to say, they are always looking for a "fall guy" and the big, bad utility is a convenient target. It is not a conversation for this forum, however.

 

[setsailsoon]

Batteries are getting cheaper and better. There are some amazing batteries in design. Toyota and Solid State. Honda and a Calcium battery. Both are cheaper and have double the capacity for the weight. But they are not out yet.

IF you want a daily cycling battery, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) is the only viable battery. It will last up to 20 years cycled every day. Is it affordable compared to grid power? Not in Texas (at the moment). But it should work at California energy prices.

We saw this in our sailing community. 10 years ago our batteries were lead acid gel cells. When we stopped cruising people were starting to switch to liPo. Now most use them. PV panels were 85 watts and now the same size panel is over 100 watts.

But even with technology improvements you still can't beat ~20,000 btu/lb for "stored" energy in liquid fuels. Also I think we're headed for a nation-wide Texas freeze-like situation if we want an all-electric car fleet by 2035. It just won't work and will take decades to fix unless we start building nuclear power plants like crazy right now.

My $.02

Chris

 

[red-beard]

The LiFePo4 batteries were expensive compared to Li-ion. And still are. But they last 3-5 times as long with the same cycles. And they do not need a fancy water cooling system.

For the power grid, I'm betting on Flow Batteries. No matter the source of power, storage is a good thing and allows much more efficient operation.

As far as the grid and electric cars, the transmission system is presently not up to it, but it could be done over 10-15 years. Even that issue is plagued with environmental issues with power corridors and building. And the other issue with today's battery technology, the lithium will never be enough. And the Lithium needs to be used for other things.

Finally, the "real" solution to our power needs has always been fission-nuclear power. We may or may not get fusion working. But fission works, we know how. And between breeding more fuel and adding Thorium, we can run hundreds of years even with today's growth. Hopefully by the time the fissionable materials run out on earth, we either are on to the next source or we have access to the asteroid belt and fissionable materials from there.

We could put mickey mouse ears on the plant (huge orbiting solar arrays), but that has other consequences. A very good solution for Mars! It needs more heat and an artificial magnetosphere!

The "final" energy solution is direct-matter to energy conversion. How? No clue. But that is where this all goes.

 

[Mdragger88]

We have an industrial welder/ generator for just in case. Luckily we haven’t had to use it yet during this weather event. If we do it will be just to run our blower on our wood burning fireplace (we’ve been heating our entire home w/ this all winter) & a few strings of lights. We have a propane grill we can cook on. Our water is municipal so we mostly don’t have to worry about that at least. If shtf at least i have 26k gallons covered in the backyard. I really feel for those who don’t have a backup plan for things like this. In the summer the plan is the same except we would use it to power our attic fan instead of the fireplace.