Backup power.

LOL, I am all about disclosure... If it helps someone else I am mostly an open book :)

My bad experience does not = someone else's ...
 
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I have a dual fuel Duromax generator that I bought from Lowes on sale for about $1100. It is 13kw surge and 10.5kw running. I had the electrician install a transfer switch. So far I have only run it on propane so I did not gum up the carb. Between my underground propane tank, individual tanks, plus gas that I can store I figure I can run about a week before I need to refuel. It can run our fridges and freezers, pool pump, SWG, lights, TVs and with some clever switching around one of our air conditioners. I also have a window unit I can install so that we can sleep if I need to conserve power. That is my short term plan.

Down here in S Florida it is not a matter of if, but when we get hit with a big hurricane that will knock out power for a while. My roof is rated to 160mph and all my windows and doors are rated to 170mph. So the house should survive.

The long term plan is sometime in the next 5 years I will get a solar roof. I have a very large south facing roof line. I want one as big as I can, I hope somewhere about 35kw. That with about 4 powerwalls should be able to keep the whole house with some smart planning. Right now the solar roof is in gen 3. I would think either the next generation or the one after should be just about cost efficient enough.
 
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First step: Just contacted my solar installer about a transfer switch. Doesn't make sense to me to have a generator, of any size, and not be able to put it online to run anything in the house or yard or pool at a moments notice. Running extension cords around is lame, and won't even work for the pool pump.

I love the dual fuel idea. Good tip. Do they come natural gas/auto gas (not diesel)? Any that can do auto gas, natural gas and propane?
 
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Welcome to Florida. Two fairly big AC units chew up a lot of power. I guess when it comes time to replace them I should go with some super efficient ones. But they are fairly new and fairly efficient right now.

Thats why this is the medium term plan and need the prices and technology to get just a little bit better. I also need to make sure the roof is rated to 170 mph.
 
First step: Just contacted my solar installer about a transfer switch.

The transfer switch is they key. In Florida the rule is solar gets turned off on a power failure unless you have a backup system, either battery or a generator.

So the bigger question is if you have natural gas why would you want dual fuel? Hook it up to the nat gas line and be done with it. You will technically have an unlimited supply coming through the pipe.
 
So the bigger question is if you have natural gas why would you want dual fuel? Hook it up to the nat gas line and be done with it. You will technically have an unlimited supply coming through the pipe.
Couple reasons. While losing electricity at the same time natural gas goes down seems very unlikely, I think it's a possibility. If you're preparing for an energy crisis, might as well be fully prepared. And I'm still sorting out the options. Maybe the size of the generator required to run my home's essentials would be one that could travel with me, or get lent out, whatever. A single fuel solution just leaves less options. Just looking into what's out there at this point, to sort out options vs cost (weight, kW size, dimensions, fuel type, portability, self starting, and all the other things I don't know I don't know yet).
 
They do make Tri fuel generators which I guess is what you want. I do have a friend that converted his gas generator to a tri fuel using a conversion kit that cost him about $150 which is probably much less than buying the Tri Fuel since they seem to charge quite a premium on those.
 
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First step: Just contacted my solar installer about a transfer switch. Doesn't make sense to me to have a generator, of any size, and not be able to put it online to run anything in the house or yard or pool at a moments notice. Running extension cords around is lame, and won't even work for the pool pump.

I love the dual fuel idea. Good tip. Do they come natural gas/auto gas (not diesel)? Any that can do auto gas, natural gas and propane?

Solar. Unless you put in a battery based system, solar does not run when the power goes out. Look up UL 1741. You can't just put in a transfer switch for solar.

Also, grid-tied solar and generators are not compatible. Make sure the solar is connected on the Utility side of the transfer switch.

We manufacture inverter-battery-generator systems.

If you are just looking for a manual transfer switch, there are a couple of GE models available through Home Depot. The rating compares to your whole house breaker rating. 200A is about $450. The 100A is about $150. You will need a high current outlet (like a 240V 50A RV outlet) and a compatible cable to connect the generator.
 
Couple reasons. While losing electricity at the same time natural gas goes down seems very unlikely, I think it's a possibility. If you're preparing for an energy crisis, might as well be fully prepared. And I'm still sorting out the options. Maybe the size of the generator required to run my home's essentials would be one that could travel with me, or get lent out, whatever. A single fuel solution just leaves less options. Just looking into what's out there at this point, to sort out options vs cost (weight, kW size, dimensions, fuel type, portability, self starting, and all the other things I don't know I don't know yet).
Most of the whole house generators can be switched between Natural gas and Propane. Some are easier than others. On the Briggs and Stratton units, under 16 kW, you have to replace the internal jets. 16-20kW, there is a valve, but it requires removing the back panel. On the 25 kW and up Water cooler, it is a valve right by the breaker. Operating on the wrong fuel vs setting can damage the generators.
 

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Thanks red-beard! I think I'm clear on the transfer switch. I'm not looking to run solar during an outage. I don't have enough panels to run a house without a battery.

The drawing I've been studying looks to put the solar on the grid side of the switch, so that both the solar and the grid are isolated from the house when the gennie is in use. Right now the solar ties in through a breaker, so I know that has to be changed. I pinged the solar installer because I figure they would know all the ins and outs of adding the switch and rewiring the solar. I am hoping they can do it instead of some random electrician, because my solar guys are top notch.

Thanks for the insight about propane/natural gas. I'll keep studying that. Realistically, a natural gas/auto gas dual would suffice. Propane would have been a bonus...
 
Solar. Unless you put in a battery based system, solar does not run when the power goes out. Look up UL 1741. You can't just put in a transfer switch for solar.

Also, grid-tied solar and generators are not compatible. Make sure the solar is connected on the Utility side of the transfer switch.

We manufacture inverter-battery-generator systems.

If you are just looking for a manual transfer switch, there are a couple of GE models available through Home Depot. The rating compares to your whole house breaker rating. 200A is about $450. The 100A is about $150. You will need a high current outlet (like a 240V 50A RV outlet) and a compatible cable to connect the generator.

You should say "it depends" on the generator... My generator runs the whole house at 240V and I am going to connect my solar to the house side, that way it will run whenever the utility or gen is running... Mine is all manual so the solar will shut off once the utility grid shuts down and will start back up once I manually switch it to gen...

Why would solar not be compatible with a generator? A whole house generator is just a smaller version of what the power companies run to generate power...
 
You should say "it depends" on the generator... My generator runs the whole house at 240V and I am going to connect my solar to the house side, that way it will run whenever the utility or gen is running... Mine is all manual so the solar will shut off once the utility grid shuts down and will start back up once I manually switch it to gen...

Why would solar not be compatible with a generator? A whole house generator is just a smaller version of what the power companies run to generate power...

Grid tied solar needs a voltage/frequency signal to work. But it is "dumb". It cannot modulate the output. If your usage is low, or really anytime the solar power is more than being used in the house, you have excess power. This can occur anytime!

Excess power normally goes to the grid. With a generator, there is no place for excess power to go. You'll back feed the generator with power and probably damage the generator. This is why you put the solar on the Utility side of the transfer switch.
 
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Thanks red-beard! I think I'm clear on the transfer switch. I'm not looking to run solar during an outage. I don't have enough panels to run a house without a battery.

The drawing I've been studying looks to put the solar on the grid side of the switch, so that both the solar and the grid are isolated from the house when the gennie is in use. Right now the solar ties in through a breaker, so I know that has to be changed. I pinged the solar installer because I figure they would know all the ins and outs of adding the switch and rewiring the solar. I am hoping they can do it instead of some random electrician, because my solar guys are top notch.

Thanks for the insight about propane/natural gas. I'll keep studying that. Realistically, a natural gas/auto gas dual would suffice. Propane would have been a bonus...

All they need to do it add a tiny enclosure with a breaker. This is then tied to the Utility side of the transfer switch. The typical type is used for a local pump or other 240V circuit
 
Doesn't the whole solar thing have to do with how solar city (et all) wrote your contract? If they own the system, they set it up so that they get paid for every watt the panels produce, which are all thrown on the grid, right? So they don't want or care about you having power during an outage. On the other hand, if you own the panels outright, wouldn't you want them on your side of the meter, so that you actually use the power your panels produce and also get the benefit of off-grid power? I know one friend who is a lawyer and well-versed in the solar game. He bought and used every trick in the book to get his panels owned outright and with all the rebates and credits available to him, paid something like 25% of their "listed" price. He told me his roof has 3 times the panels that the house "needs" as explained to him by the "experts". He showed me the app that he uses and 100% of his power is produced by the panels (includes net metering to cover him at night when he draws from the grid). He has a 9k square foot house too. I do know a little about the frequency thing having worked for PG&E for 10 years. I would think you could do this locally with some extra electronics for grid frequency matching. Are these electronics available?
 
Grid tied solar needs a voltage/frequency signal to work. But it is "dumb". It cannot modulate the output. If your usage is low, or really anytime the solar power is more than being used in the house, you have excess power. This can occur anytime!

Excess power normally goes to the grid. With a generator, there is no place for excess power to go. You'll back feed the generator with power and probably damage the generator. This is why you put the solar on the Utility side of the transfer switch.
And this is why I ask questions like this.. I did not know that and it makes sense.. If I had 4kw of solar and the gen running but I was only using 3.2 kw it would send the rest to the gen... How does a battery backup get away with it, I would think once the batteries are full it would do the same thing...
 
Doesn't the whole solar thing have to do with how solar city (et all) wrote your contract? If they own the system, they set it up so that they get paid for every watt the panels produce, which are all thrown on the grid, right? So they don't want or care about you having power during an outage. On the other hand, if you own the panels outright, wouldn't you want them on your side of the meter, so that you actually use the power your panels produce and also get the benefit of off-grid power? I know one friend who is a lawyer and well-versed in the solar game. He bought and used every trick in the book to get his panels owned outright and with all the rebates and credits available to him, paid something like 25% of their "listed" price. He told me his roof has 3 times the panels that the house "needs" as explained to him by the "experts". He showed me the app that he uses and 100% of his power is produced by the panels (includes net metering to cover him at night when he draws from the grid). He has a 9k square foot house too. I do know a little about the frequency thing having worked for PG&E for 10 years. I would think you could do this locally with some extra electronics for grid frequency matching. Are these electronics available?
I own my PV system, so no contract issues with the original installer. I got my system for 66% of cost. And I have all the panels I need to produce all the electricity I need all year round, but not without the grid.

My solar system cannot run my house minute to minute, let alone day to day or week to week. I think you know this, but maybe for others (as it was a surprise to me when I learned this): my panels might be able to run some lights, maybe my coffee pot. I don't know where the cut off is. They can't run big appliances, not without the grid. They might work all day to "bank" enough juice on the grid to run the refrigerator and the laundry. And that's when the sun is out in the summer. In the winter it might take days to bank all the necessary watts. The system relies on the grid to "distribute" the total I generate across the peak moments here and there I need it. So I'm not sure how much my panels would even help in a 6 hour outage, or even across six days. A few dollars of gas? Even if the back feed issue could be negated somehow, running panels and the gennie at the same time is of questionable value. The money it might save me in gas would never pay for the equipment I'd have to buy to make it work (I'm guessing I'd have to replace or augment my existing converter with something that could handle the back feed and allow off-grid use). Now if I had a battery, that's a different tune, but there would be some circuitry involved somewhere that could negotiate all the extra power flying around. But that would triple, or more, the cost of adding a gennie.

The notion of having a system that could get me off the grid is interesting, but the facts are, even with all the b--ching I do about PG&E, using their grid as my "battery" is a really good deal. Really good. I don't pay anything annually for electricity, and that savings is quickly paying off my panels. I only have a few years to go. Once I break even, I'll be using PG&E's grid for free, not watching my $5-10K battery wall degrade. Farther down the road, when battery tech ups capacity at cheaper prices, and when CA lets PG&E renege on my deal with them, then I'll take another look at batteries.
 
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And this is why I ask questions like this.. I did not know that and it makes sense.. If I had 4kw of solar and the gen running but I was only using 3.2 kw it would send the rest to the gen... How does a battery backup get away with it, I would think once the batteries are full it would do the same thing...

On a battery based system you normally keep the solar panels DC to the batteries. The charge controllers are designed to modulate the solar panels to reduce power if the batteries are full and/or if usage is low.

There are some AC coupled, battery based systems, usually where there is an existing grid-tied system. Our system can disconnect the solar panels if the batteries are full and usage is low. It will also disconnects the panels ANYTIME the generator runs. I usually try to talk the homeowner into converting to a charge controller based system, but some people are cheap.
 
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Dirk: We have two different kinds of batteries. Those for on-grid (Lead Acid - AGM) and off-grid (Lithium Ferro Phosphate).

The AGM batteries should last 5-10 years if you have only a few discharge recharge cycles a year. I like them for "backup" power. They allow the solar panels to be used in an emergency and are decently priced.

LiFePo4 batteries are the right ones for off-grid. You can cycle them 7,000=10,000 times. While pricey (about triple the cost of AGM), they are cheaper in the long run.

Someone on a budget, I tell them to go AGM, as the price/design of Lithium batteries keeps improving. 3 years ago, LifePo4 were double they price. Shoot, if you are cycling the AGM, I can get them to last 1800-3000 cycles, but by only using about 60-80% of their capacity...
 
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I have a Nissan LEAF electric vehicle for extra storage when needed - and in the event that the Powerwall (battery) gets charged to 100% during the day, while the power is out, the battery would at that point shut down the solar - since there is nowhere for that extra electricity to go. By charging my electric vehicle when the Powerwall is full I can use that extra PV "free" electricity. The LEAF has 40kwh battery (vs the 13kwh Powerwall) so I can dump quite a bit of kwh into the LEAF banking more energy. I do have an inverter wired to my LEAF to power things in an emergency as well - so I can hook up extra 110v stuff to the car - like the garage beer & wine fridges to run them off the LEAF for days.

It would mean a little but of shuffling stuff around during an extended sunny power outage.
 

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