Florida Build - Final Critiques Welcome!!

[matthewsunshineflorida]

After looking at this nearly two years ago and recovering from sticker shock, we have decided to go all in with a pool here in Tampa and have been working through PBs for months to get a design and company we really like. Unless one of the couple companies left is going to really wow us, we think we have a design we like with a company I trust.

That said, I'm really sincerely looking for people to tear apart my design and tell me where we can make it better (within financial reason). Our priority is not swimming laps or diving but more to create an entertaining space with a fire pit, spa, sunshelf, and eating/lounge areas all feeling connected to the space (no stand alone spa). Secondary goal is to foster fun for kids (we have none yet), toddlers on the sunshelf through highschool in the pool.

Here's what we have and then some photos, thanks for contributing - really appreciate all I've learned so far on the forums! We're at $80k as it stands and I'd like to not be far from that.

Structure

• 400sqft pool, 6x7 oval spa raised 12”
• Depth 3.5 around steps then 4ft toward front of pool, 5.5ft middle, 4ft right side
• Sunshelf 10-12" deep 10’ half moon with 1 bubbler and 1 umbrella sleeve, bench in middle (deep)
• Banding tile around sunshelf, stairs, benches
• Concrete pavers over existing concrete patio and around pool as measurements show, extra wide 3” deck drain with removable top for cleaning
• Back 18” waterfall wall to also work as a bench, accent tile, undecided
• We will build a wood fire pit behind the back wall
• Screened in, 10ft walls, black frame, 18x14, gutters

Equipment

• 3hp IntelliFlo VSF for pool/spa, and 3/4hp for the waterfall and bubbler
• 200 sqft Clean and Clear Filter
• 400,000 BTU MasterTemp gas heater
• Signature Matrix Cadet Blue with tile banding around steps/bench/sunshelf
• 2 microbrites inside pool, 1 in spa
• Intellicenter 5ips IC40 SWG
• 3 pool wall returns, 1 skimmer is quoted (is that enough?)
• Blower with 6 “therapy” jets in spa which are supposed to be the ones that spin?
• I will run electrical for robot vacuum, for bulbs around, for LEDs up the frame ridges, and for landscape lighting

Other Things

• Areca palms around entire fence uplit with lights. This species grows from the bottom all the way up
• Small plantings around/between the areca palms
• Landscaping in the corners, probably pots or something, will run pot sprayers
• Will put in low counter/bar under existing patio, thinking 2 mini fridges, some cabinets
• Grill will go outside next to the left side door. Cheaper and easier to replace.
• Counter height bar table in the patio facing a 65” roku tv
• Sectional around a propane fire table on the right side, probably put a tv on that wall

Shout out to @kimkats @Dirk @riley00dog and the others for helping us SO much in 2018 - we're back because of great people like you all. Honorable mention to @martinkennedy whose backyard we plan to emulate 5% of haha... Look forward to all of your continued wisdom as we "dive" in

 

[Slapulator]

Fellow Tampa Bay Area Pool Lurker here. I think this is looking beyond awesome and will meet your goals for decades to come. What I have learned in my lurking and in my own on going design plans is you might want to up your filter to the 300 or 400 sqft series if your budget can handle it for less maintenance. Also, will you have main drains? If so, 1 skimmer with your cage if placed with the winds would do just fine from what I have learned but a 2nd skimmer would not hurt and would be very important if you are going without a main drain for pump protection. I also would bump it to 4 returns personally to maximize circulation. Just tings I have incorporated into my design concept from all the awesome information on this site.

 

[JJ_Tex]

^ what he said, especially on the filter and # of returns

Also, I would do your research on the microbrites to make sure 2 will be enough. I'm thinking you would at least want to add one on the tanning ledge.

Since you are getting a gas heater, will you also be adding a gas line to your grill and fire table? You can at least run empty conduit in case you want to run gas at some point.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

up your filter to the 300 or 400 sqft

Also, will you have main drains? If so, 1 skimmer with your cage if placed with the winds would do just fine from what I have learned but a 2nd skimmer would not hurt and would be very important if you are going without a main drain for pump protection. I also would bump it to 4 returns

^ what he said, especially on the filter and # of returns

We actually upgraded it to the 200, I thought that was a big enough improvement but if you guys are thinking I'd benefit from larger I'll get it quoted! Is there a rule of thumb with water volume and screen or is it just "as big as you can afford"? Also, I believe we have one main drain in the pool center (deep end) and one in the spa. The pool returns are being quoted as 3 for $180 so if they're really $60 to add more, we could definitely do however many you think we should. Let me know if you all know how we should go about deciding how many and where for this shape...

Also, I would do your research on the microbrites to make sure 2 will be enough. I'm thinking you would at least want to add one on the tanning ledge.

I did see the charts for microbrites and it looks like 2 is the minimum their chart recommends preferring 3. Lol but they are $950 a piece and I'm leery about putting one on the sunshelf that would point TOWARD the house without adding much benefit to the rest of the pool. I figured if I do the hanging lights around the inside perimeter of the enclosure and frosted LEDs up the enclosure, it would give us plenty of light and save the cash. You think it's worth it to go ahead and put one on the tanning ledge maybe on the side of it so it's pointing horizontally?

Since you are getting a gas heater, will you also be adding a gas line to your grill and fire table? You can at least run empty conduit in case you want to run gas at some point.

The gas goes in on the right side of the house so the gas run is a straight 55ft run. It would be another 30ft to the right edge of the pool plus another 50ft to where the grill will be - even a direct attic run would be about the same by the time you go up 12ft and back down. The best quote for our short run with CSST is already $1k so I would bet it would add $2k+ to do those other two runs especially since they'd need to go underground at the end - it doesn't seem worth it to me vs just getting propane every so often. I keep 2 tanks under the grill so we never run out mid evening, and that would be the same for the fire table. Is there a big advantage to running the lines other than not having to refill propane?

@JJ_Tex, just went through and saw you did a really similar awesome build last year from SWG to Intellicenter, 400k BTU heater, spa, waterfall, even your fence landscaping - turned out really great! So definitely let me know if you have other wise words from the design to the process itself. I saw you did a 520 filter (wow!) and you did stone under the waterfalls - any issues with keeping the stone clean from calcium and dirt vs tile? I like the look of stone on the wall but concerned about maintenance. Also made me wonder if we could do 3 small waterfalls (only about $1k more I think) but I'm concerned about it being too busy looking since we already have a bubbler and a spa spillover on that back side - yours looks so clean and symmetrical (ahh symmetry, thee does not exist in our design). Really appreciate any input you have, even critical or advice from your recent experience!

 

[kimkats]

Well welcome home!! So glad to see you back with us! I am loving your design with a couple tweaks!

-See the bench across from the water fall wall? My biggest worry about it is someone running out of the house straight into the pool and hitting that bench on the way down/in. I would move it to the left or right depending on your house door (which one is closer to the door).

-The water fall might need a "finger ledge" for safety. It is just a small bump out of the stone someone can hang on to if they get tired in the deeper part of the pool and need time to catch their breath.

if I do the hanging lights around the inside perimeter of the enclosure and frosted LEDs up the enclosure, it would give us plenty of light and save the cash

I LOVE this idea! That kind of lighting is so pretty!

Kim

 

[Newdude]

I voted for FloridaMan but only because during your 15 minutes of fame you could sell your story to TMZ and the pool would be free. I'm a good friend like that, always lookin out.

Its a spectacular build BTW.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

-See the bench across from the water fall wall? My biggest worry about it is someone running out of the house straight into the pool and hitting that bench

We actually had this on the right side niche for this exact reason, but our PB said "Building codes require the bench in the deep end, which in your case is in the middle." Think they might be misunderstanding or do you think this is some kind of local code thing? My compromise was to make the bench flush with the bump outs to the left/right of it and tile the bench edge to be clear. I'm not sure what else I really can do AFAIK.

-The water fall might need a "finger ledge" for safety.

Hmm... break up the aesthetics or cater to those ungrateful rash mini humans we call kids... oh the age old question..... I'll ask my PB if there's a good compromise here. It's only 5.5ft deep with a relatively brief deep end with a lot of visibility on that side and a bench on the other so I FEEL like it's less of a hazard - but it's true there's nothing to grab onto that side... didn't really think about that. Will ask PB for ideas!

I know you're one of the OG experts - did you have any thoughts/ideas about the cartridge filter size or number/location of pool returns and skimmers for this type of design and pump size? I was at my dad's pool today and they have a 100sqft filter and a 1.5hp pump for about 16k gallons - he cleans the filter monthly, is that about right? Also, he has 3 returns. Old pool though, built 1990s.

I voted for FloridaMan

Lol you don't know what it's like to read an insane headline and think, "Please don't be Florida, PLEASE don't be Florida."... Then you see the subtext: "FLORIDA MAN INHALES BATH SALTS, STRIPS NAKED, AND RUNS INTO THE GROCERY STORE FOAMING AT THE MOUTH"... yep that's a slow Tuesday afternoon for us here in Disney World land.

 

[JJ_Tex]

@JJ_Tex, just went through and saw you did a really similar awesome build last year from SWG to Intellicenter, 400k BTU heater, spa, waterfall, even your fence landscaping - turned out really great! So definitely let me know if you have other wise words from the design to the process itself. I saw you did a 520 filter (wow!) and you did stone under the waterfalls - any issues with keeping the stone clean from calcium and dirt vs tile? I like the look of stone on the wall but concerned about maintenance. Also made me wonder if we could do 3 small waterfalls (only about $1k more I think) but I'm concerned about it being too busy looking since we already have a bubbler and a spa spillover on that back side - yours looks so clean and symmetrical (ahh symmetry, thee does not exist in our design). Really appreciate any input you have, even critical or advice from your recent experience!

Thanks. No issues with the stone, I literally have not had to do any scrubbing or maintenance on the stone wall.
Looking at your drawings, I like the single waterfall that you have, since you have other things going on with the back wall.

With that said, if you wanted to do 3, I would consider moving the tanning ledge to the bottom left closest to the house. That would break up some of the things going on in the back. Plus, I like it when the stairs are close to the house for ease of access, since someone is always going in/out for a bathroom break, drink refill, "I need my goggles", etc.

By the way, Florida man was my halloween costume last year. Shorts, cowboy boots, mullet wig, and a Florida t-shirt. I forgot the bath salts

 

[kimkats]

"Building codes require the bench in the deep end, which in your case is in the middle."

What most codes say is there should be a way to hold on to something in the deep end. In the case of the house side that would be the coping. On the wall side it will be the finger ledge.

break up the aesthetics

You really don't see it as it is made out of the same stone as the wall. In fact it IS the same stone on with one run bumped out a bit for fingers to hold on to.

I will do some poking around to see if I can find the code. You should also ask the PB for the code number and page in the code book.

 

[usfbull]

Matt,

I was told by a different PB a 5’ bench is code in the deep end.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

Out of curiosity, I did a rectangular build with the same square footage. I actually don't think it functions as well. Thinking about how you will want to naturally walk from one area to another or see from where you're sitting, each of the corners block a more natural walking path or sightline, and the straight edges leave no nooks for things like chairs or even just drinks to be not in the walkway. I know it's considered "modern" and I think they look great (this would look very cool with an infinity spa to match the sunshelf on the other side), but I actually think the freeform (but still generally rectangular) shape is more functional for us:



So unless you guys have any thoughts on making that rectangular version better, I think we like what we are working with. Next up is tile/stone/pavers. I used photoshop to combine a few different layers of videos our PBs sent us to try to figure out what to do with the back wall and the spa in terms of tile/stone (not colors, just style/size).

This one is 6" waterline tile all the way around, stone wall, small 1x2 tiled spa (would pick different colors though):


This one is the same thing except the spa tile continues all the way down to the waterline (i.e. the 6" tiles would stop at the spa) - kind of an interesting look because the overflow is more dramatic with the tile following the flow:


This one is a tiled wall - I would definitely pick a different tile and probably a combination of tiles. So say the bottom row 6" tiles like this with say an accent tile every 4 or 5 tiles, then above that do like 1x2 tiles with maybe 3 accent tiles (left/right/center):


Just trying to think about the best way to combine the spa/wall/waterfall and have it tie in but also have some pop since we will probably choose a lighter colored paver. We're thinking Flagstone Panorama Demi colored Cream/Beige or White/Tan/Charcoal:




As far as the bench, it was reiterated to me that we have to have it in the deep end for new builds in my county so

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I saw $80K and immediately went full TMZ myself! I dunno. I have some regrets at the $40K I spent on mine. IF we make it five years (we might not) here the -$20K in equity will probably be worth it, especially this year because it would be a whole bunch of no fun to go anywhere on vacation now anyway. I just wish everyone actually used the pool more than they do. It's nice down here now with the pool water at 92F... Once I convince them to go in everyone loves it.. but sometimes it's hard to pull away from TV and video games....

You are going fancier that I went or would have gone, but I imagine for what you are looking for and at that is in the ballpark. A lot of that is your landscaping that eats up money fast. The equipment is fine, you'll love the SWCG. I have almost gotten lazy now with it, which might be the only downside to a SWCG. I almost wish we would have had Pentair equipment we are already having minor issues with the pump. I suspect it will get a bearing in it before the warranty is up.

We had to have a bench too near the deep end (it's actually not quite in it). We never sit on it but we sure grab it a lot. it's not a negative.

Enjoy. See you on TMZ.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

You are going fancier that I went or would have gone, but I imagine for what you are looking for and at that is in the ballpark. A lot of that is your landscaping that eats up money fast. The equipment is fine, you'll love the SWCG.

I have no idea how you were able to do all that for $40k! I hate to admit this, but I'm actually not including landscaping or furniture and we're at $77k. The breakdown is this:
Pool: $33k (400sqft), Signature Matrix Cadet Blue pebble finish, 10ft half moon sunshelf, tile banding steps/benches
Spa: $10.5k (6x7 oval, raised 12", 6 therapy jets, blower, spillover)
Bubbler/Waterfall: $750
Equipment: $8k (C&C 200sqft, IC40 5ips SWG, 3hp intelliflo, 3/4hp superflo, Mastertemp 400k, 3 microbrites, 3" removable top deck drain)
Deck: $10.5k (pavers)
Footer: $2k
Screen: $12.25k (10ft wall, 18x14 screen, 50ftx30ft)
Wall: Like 5 grand for the back wall and permitting but they put these into the above categories and I don't know where/how.

This seems like a ridiculous amount to spend but we really want a fire pit, a pool, a spa, and a big enclosed outdoor space.

So, to work through the process with my wife, I reasoned through moving to a house with a pool. Here's what I wrote out when we were deciding:
1) Our property taxes alone would be over $2k/yr higher (bought our house for a good price and homestead keeps property tax from increasing more than 3%).
2) Moving costs would be $40k (selling this house, closing on a new one)
3) Pool homes in our type of neighborhood are typically 10-20 years old which means they will need roofs ($20k-$25k), paint ($10k), HVAC ($10k), pool resurfacing (?) - all that was just done here in 2017/2018 and the pool would be new (lower energy costs, maintenance?).
4) We did a lot of "niche" things to our house that we won't get in equity when we sell and I'd need to do again. Whole house is a smart home with custom storage spaces, attic storage, over $20k in random stuff we won't get back plus tons of time.
5) Redfin says pool adds avg $30k in Tampa Bay metro. They conclude a pool adds $17.21 per square foot of house but that would add $52k which is clearly not correct as it probably includes smaller homes but still, at least $20k-$30k.
6) Pools and enclosures are kinda small in our area for some reason so we'd have a hard time finding what we really want.

So it seems to me we either don't do a pool at all, or we do one here - moving isn't a good option. We spend tons of time on our front porch and I still go hop in my parents pool when I visit so I think we will spend a lot of time in the backyard space once it's done. If our future kids enjoy it and bring their friends here, that's an added benefit. We have the cash so it's not like we're paying on it forever, it's not "wise" but we've been wise with our finances other than this lol so I feel like we could splurge...

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Well, I did add the SWCG this year for $800 myself, on top of that, and all the Xeroscaping gravel (another $1500, the stuff is EXPENSIVE compared to Midwestern gravel) and planting plants ($300 or so) I did myself. In Arizona this meant moving 20 tons of gravel with a couple of wheelbarrows and to plant the plants I used either a gas post auger ($150), or even better an electric jackhammer ($150) I have both ... So there was quite a bit of my own work in there.. probably $7-9K worth. I over detailed it all on my build thread and honestly I still have one more thing to do....

I also went with a detached "portable" spa instead and that was right at $7K also. Just like your bid, +$11K and about +$4K in the equipment is for the Spa. If you entertain, your type is better. If you want to use it for "old guy therapy" then my type is better for that. In my case I made the correct choice for our use case and I can at least take that with me when I move. So say $50K being closer to the final cost is really probably correct.

We went with "cheap" but not the "cheapest" materials and that helped somewhat. No heater.. that was a big savings because-- no gas line... And we don't have those greenhouse type enclosures like you do (but I am probably going to build a pergola over part of the shallow end because-- get this-- my wife is allergic to the sun... she can't use the pool during the day time, even with SPF 50 sunscreen she gets hives... fine late in the evening, when it's cloudy or at night). Your enclosure, I would guess would be $15-20k by itself. Like I said... your estimate seems in the ballpark for what you are getting.

The one expensive non-TFP approved thing we do have is the Paramount Floor system. In Arizona, it works great. I think any place with normal vegetation, like Florida, it would have issues and a robot would be much better. I still need to use one of those little $25 hose vacuums with it because my dogs knock gravel into the pool and it's too heavy once washed up against the wall to then go down the main drain. About once a week I have to do that. No biggie... That was +$5500.

A pool is probably a worse investment in the first 5 years than a car is. after 10 it's probably better if well maintained. But you'll never get out of it what you paid in. Enjoy it.

4) is normal in all houses.

Value added to houses is more in California, Arizona, Texas and Florida than anywhere else but is at most half of the cost to build. In many places a pool lowers the value of a house. I am from the upper Midwest, and it is definitely the case there for an in ground.

 

[gingrbredman]

Midwest here, and agree with MatthewSunshine and Rattus. We are not putting a pool in to increase our home value, we actually are keenly aware of the big cost, and little "financial" return. How long is the swimming season really up here in the Midwest? Not long enough to make a pool a big value add to the home, but we will be here for a while, and we will enjoy it.

But just as the OP did, we ran through the same process, and ended up with the same conclusion. Even if we could find a house that had a pool, it would cost more, and we would give up more moving from where we are. I agree, it can feel like a ridiculous amount of money to spend, but will be worth it to you and the family when all done. Can't wait to see how this turns out.

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

I over detailed it all on my build thread and honestly I still have one more thing to do....

Can you link to your build thread? I don't see it in your signature and I'm not sure how to get to it. Always really helpful to see and if you have any tips through the process I would so greatly appreciate it.

If you entertain, your type is better. If you want to use it for "old guy therapy" then my type is better for that.

Yea my father has a stand alone and it's WAY better than in ground for comfort/therapy - especially the lay down seat that is just incredible. But I have a jacuzzi type tub in the master bathroom that is restorative fine enough so the spa is more of a visual thing and gathering place to sit with friends/wife in the summer (cool) and those punishing florida winters (heated). You're absolutely right that a lot of this whole project is more experiential preference than analytical conclusion - which is very unusual for me and has taken a couple years for me to accept.

But just as the OP did, we ran through the same process, and ended up with the same conclusion. Even if we could find a house that had a pool, it would cost more, and we would give up more moving from where we are. I agree, it can feel like a ridiculous amount of money to spend, but will be worth it to you and the family when all done. Can't wait to see how this turns out.

Very cool, can't wait to see your build! I looked at Latham (which owns several fiberglass brands) initially - really like some of their pools. We couldn't get the exact shape/setup we wanted and there really aren't that many people that seem to know how to work with fiberglass here in Tampa but if you go back to my old 2018 thread I tried all kinds of setups particularly with the Triton and Poseidon and Placid spa. Same issue we went through in terms of moving vs building though. Then if you're gonna build, you should really stay for a LONG time. And if you're gonna stay for a long time, you should really get everything you could want within reason. Which is how we ended up in so much trouble

 

[kimkats]

go back to my old 2018 thread I tried all kinds of setups particularly with the Triton and Poseidon and Placid spa

I do have to say it WAS fun to do though!

 

[matthewsunshineflorida]

I do have to say it WAS fun to do though!

Yea haha it definitely was! I actually started with our last design and went to gunite with the same design - then it adapted from there when my wife had the idea to do a waterfall wall and use the top as a bench for a firepit on the other side. I think it will be unique and flow really well for our space.

Did you happen to have any other thoughts about filter size or returns/skimmers? I want to talk to my PB about anything I should change but I don't really know WHAT to ask for specifically in terms of "rules of thumb" or something to go off of.

Your counsel was so helpful before so please feel free to critique anything you see a potential issue for! I'm with you on the bench but my understanding is that's the one thing we can't change. Thanks Kim!!!

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Continuation of an odyssey

Continued from the "introduce yourself thread". The pool was laid out on Friday and we will have the dig on Wednesday (of course moved from Tuesday). We saved a little more gravel. I calculated the volume to be about 14,500 gallons, so yes it's intentionally a small pool. PB thought 15k to...

www.troublefreepool.com

It is indeed an epic saga. I (probably against forum rules at this point) am still occasionally adding to it. I have a funny to add from yesterday, as a matter of fact...

 

[kimkats]

I (probably against forum rules at this point) am still occasionally adding to it.

It is YOUR thread. You are more than welcome to update and add to it as much as you want.

Okay so that is what we will work with-bench there.

Skimmer-I would do two. One over by the ping pong table inside the curve and one by where the shadow of the house is. Make sure they are not in the "swim lane" where each bump out is.

-Returns-make sure there is one on the shelf off to the wall side so it will blow the stuff off the shelf towards that skimmer. Remind me to draw it out when I get home today. Not enough time this morning to do what I want with it LOL

I also want to talk about the main drain........